What do Catholics believe crucifixion accomplished?

[Contarini]

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (referring to the water in the mother’s womb as Nicodemus had just put it) and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh (this is yet another way of saying “mother’s womb”), but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. .

This is an extremely far-fetched interpretation, in my opinion. Certainly it is not self-evident.

At any rate, you have not addressed my question: whether or not the traditional Christian interpretation of texts relating to baptism is correct, it is clear that St. Paul links baptism to the death and resurrection of Jesus. Therefore, how can you argue that baptism nullifies the saving work of Jesus any more than faith does?

Edwin

 

[PBPGNFWMY]

Thats a first. I have never, ever seen anyone refer to it this way. You seriously think Nicodemus really had in mind the water from birth? I don’t think so. And I’d like to see one commentary from any Christian that ever suggested that.

Read it carefully. There is no baptism mentioned. Jesus is talking about birth verses rebirth. He is clarifying that he doesn’t mean “born of the womb” as Nic thought. Jesus does not overlook his confusion by simply repeating his statement, he clarifies for Nic that being born of the womb, water, flesh is not how we are born again…we are born again by the Spirit. This is what is referred to as baptism of the Holy Spirit.

There is no baptism in Judaism. John the Baptist is the first to have practiced it.

This is simply incorrect. It’s called “mikveh” I found this during a simply internet search: (check out #6 Immesion) convert.org/process.htm
They started using this rite of cleansing after Judah’s exile to Babylon in 586 BC.

Where do you get all this about John’s baptism? (And I agree it didn’t forgive sins.) I mean specifically the one time symbolic nature of John’s baptism. And I agree John is rather important as a bridge between the Testaments.

I’m sure a more experienced apologist could answer this better than I, but for me the most obvious reason we know this was a “one timer” is because Jesus only did it once and God said immediately that he was pleased with this action. Also, we know it is not the Jewish variety because of John’s angst with the Phar’s and Sadd’s.

But in a general sense, doing anything good or repenting of one’s sins is always a preparation for receiving the Holy Spirit.

Why then are infants, who cannot repent of their sins for obvious reasons, baptized in order to receive the HS? Isn’t it made clear we are to repent before baptism?

I still don’t see what the whole point of what you’re saying is.

To clarify, the real discussion here is are there two baptisms in the Bible or one? Naturally, I couldn’t talk about two if I didn’t distinguish the differences in their meanings.

It seems to me that it isn’t this way. It surely is a clever way to interpret Scripture, but it isn’t what Jesus means. Besides, from what I’ve heard water wouldn’t be the right word to be used there. (And flesh gives birth to flesh, etc. is just saying that the natural order generates the natural order, and the spiritual order generates the spiritual order, so we need the Holy Spirit to be born of the spiritual order… it’s a reference to the original statement of, ‘born again,’ not to the mother’s womb.)

Well, we just disagree about what Jesus means then, because it very much appears that when taking his remarks in context with Nic’s previous statement about the mother’s womb, it can’t be interpreted any other way. Glad I got you thinkin’

 

[VociMike]

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (referring to the water in the mother’s womb as Nicodemus had just put it) and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh (this is yet another way of saying “mother’s womb”), but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

It can’t be made any more obvious than that.

Then there should be hundreds of commentaries before the Reformation attesting to this obvious interpretation. But there are not. Neither is there any evidence whatsoever of the phrase “born of water” being used to refer to human birth at the time Jesus was on earth.

Besides, it’s a bizarre interpretation. A man asks “how can I…” and Jesus answers him “first you have to be born”, as though the man might need to go off and take care of that before proceeding. Why would Jesus, a consummate speaker, ever waste words telling people useless information like that? Where else in the bible does he ever tell people something so self-evident? Where else does he leave himself open to the justifiable response “Well duh!”? The answer is, nowhere.

 

[Gamera]

Read it carefully. There is no baptism mentioned. Jesus is talking about birth verses rebirth.

That’s your personal interpretation, but it wasn’t an interpretation shared by any other Christian for the first 1500 years of Christianity, was it? Can you point to any authority for the proposition that Jesus wasn’t talking about baptism? What Early Church Father or theologian or Bible commentary or saint ever shared this interpretation of Jesus’ words? For that matter, what Protestant Reformer even shared this interpretation that ‘water’ means amniotic fluid? Maybe it’d be simpler if I ask it this way: where did you come up with this interpretation? Is this your own reading of the text or were you taught this by some church, and if so, what church?

Certainly each person should “read it carefully,” but we Catholics also realize that the Catholic Church has been “reading it carefully” for 2,000 years. One of the benefits of Catholicism is that we don’t have to re-invent the wheel every generation. We build upon what has come before, upon the countless years of Scriptural study of countless saints who came before us. Generation after generation, century after century, Christians have held these words of our Savior to mean that we must be baptized.

 

[PBPGNFWMY]

Besides, it’s a bizarre interpretation. A man asks “how can I…” and Jesus answers him “first you have to be born”, as though the man might need to go off and take care of that before proceeding. Why would Jesus, a consummate speaker, ever waste words telling people useless information like that? Where else in the bible does he ever tell people something so self-evident? Where else does he leave himself open to the justifiable response “Well duh!”? The answer is, nowhere.

To that I would say that again Jesus is our example in all things and as he was born of a woman so must we be born of a woman (of course now I guess you’d have to include petri dishes ) And I disagree that he was wasting words…he was clarifying plain and simple. He didn’t start out saying we must be born of a woman (that would be a waste of words!)…Nicky just didn’t get it! But Jesus wanted to be absolutely clear on this point so he clarified not once but twice!
I don’t have all of Jesus’ words memorized so no I can’t think of another time right off the top of my head that he said something similar–WHY does that matter? Because he didn’t do it twice he must not have done it once? Strange reasoning. In fact, it would not surprise me at all if he had to clarify some of his statements! Just think if more of these clarifications were in the Bible, we wouldn’t be talking today:doh2:

 

[believers]

Yes. Jesus died a terrible death on the cross to pay for all of our sins, past, present, and future. That’s what His death accomplished — our redemption.

Sacraments aren’t any “different” sacrifice nor do they offer “different” forgiveness than that which Jesus won for us on the cross. Sacraments are simply our means to gain access to the redemption which Jesus won for us on the cross.

You can’t “gain access” by sacraments… that’s called work. We receive this redemption by faith alone. The Word of God teaches that we cannot receive this by our own works but by the faith we have in the finished work of Jesus. When we receive this free gift by faith alone, His righteousness is imputed to us just as sin was imputed to us through Adam.

 

[HailMary]

You can’t “gain access” by sacraments… that’s called work. We receive this redemption by faith alone. The Word of God teaches that we cannot receive this by our own work but by the faith we have in the finished work of Jesus. When we receive this free gift by faith alone, His righteousness is imputed to us just as sin was through Adam.

Spare us. Nowhere does it say faith alone in the bible in this context.

read this:
geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html

and this:
cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm

try it.

But this is not the topic of this thread anyhow.

 

[VociMike]

To that I would say that again Jesus is our example in all things and as he was born of a woman so must we be born of a woman (of course now I guess you’d have to include petri dishes ) And I disagree that he was wasting words…he was clarifying plain and simple. He didn’t start out saying we must be born of a woman (that would be a waste of words!)…Nicky just didn’t get it! But Jesus wanted to be absolutely clear on this point so he clarified not once but twice!
I don’t have all of Jesus’ words memorized so no I can’t think of another time right off the top of my head that he said something similar–WHY does that matter? Because he didn’t do it twice he must not have done it once? Strange reasoning. In fact, it would not surprise me at all if he had to clarify some of his statements! Just think if more of these clarifications were in the Bible, we wouldn’t be talking today:doh2:

This interpretation is a recent tradtion of men, pure and simple. You cannot find it taught before the Reformation. Doesn’t that give you pause?

 

[believers]

Spare us. Nowhere does it say faith alone in the bible in this context.

read this:
geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html

and this:
cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm

try it.

But this is not the topic of this thread anyhow.

Rom 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:7
[Saying], **Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
**
Rom 4:8
Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Rom 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:7
[Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Rom 4:8
Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Exactly where is the faith alone declaration?

 

[believers]

Exactly where is the faith alone declaration?

Where is the works declaration? The Word specifically says to him that worketh NOT.

 

[cpayne]

Regarding the interpretation of “physical birth” as what Jesus was referring to when He said “You must be born of water and the Spirit”: Since I’m coming from an evangelical Protestant background, I’ve actually heard this interpretation several times. It was when I took a long hard look at this interpretation and why we would have to stre-e-e-e-tch the Scriptures like this, that I realized the Bible clearly taught baptismal cleansing as more than a symbolic formula. After you realize this, you see the references to the necessity of baptism everywhere: Paul, Peter, John, Luke in Acts, etc. Before that realization, however, it’s like reading the Bible with selective vision.

As for the titular OP: You ever notice how many of these sorts of questions could be answered by a simple look in the CCC? (As in the second post!)

 

[drumdoc]

Where is the works declaration? The Word specifically says to him that worketh NOT.

…but faith which worketh by love. – Galatians 5:6 (KJV)

I would appreciate if PBPGNFWMY would answer the earlier posted question regarding his interpretation. From whom does your interpretation derive?

Thanks.

 

[djrakowski]

As for the titular OP: You ever notice how many of these sorts of questions could be answered by a simple look in the CCC? (As in the second post!)

You’re welcome

I prefer to answer such questions by citing paragraphs of the Catechism so the questioner can see what the Catholic Church really teaches without my words getting in the way.

 

[SPH1]

You can’t “gain access” by sacraments… that’s called work. We receive this redemption by faith alone. The Word of God teaches that we cannot receive this by our own works but by the faith we have in the finished work of Jesus. When we receive this free gift by faith alone, His righteousness is imputed to us just as sin was imputed to us through Adam.

Your fundamental error here - as with the OP - is denying that Christ has anything to do with his own sacraments.

 

[SPH1]

Acts 19:1-7:
“While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior of the country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples to whom he put the question: ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?’ They answered, 'We have not so much as heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’ ‘Well, how were you baptized?’ he persisted. They replied, ‘With the baptism of John.’ Paul then explained, ‘John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He used to tell the people about the one who would come after him in whom they were to believe–that is, Jesus.’ When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came down on them and they began to speak in tongues and to utter prophecies. There were in the company about twelve men in all.”

Christ’s baptism is always in the Trinitarian form. Matt. 28:19. If these men had been baptised in the Trinitarian form, they would have heard of the Holy Spirit. That’s why Paul asked how they were baptised.

Paul re-baptised the men in the Trinitarian form (Christ’s baptism) and then administered Confirmation via the laying on of hands.

As others have indicated, John’s baptism was not the same as Christ’s baptism, which is always in the Trinitarian form. In fact, Paul explained the difference between John’s baptism and Christ’s.

 

[Jesusstreet]

The Crucifixion is a deep subject because it goes to the root of all CHRISTianity. What is accomplished in this? The forgiveness of sin. The Birth of the Church. The wedding feast of the LAMB. The GRACE OF GOD by sending unto us THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Before CHRIST no man was found worthy to enter into the Glory of HEAVEN. But CHRIST flung open the doors, destroying the old temple made of human hands and built a new temple, which was founded at the moment the spear struck HIS side. This TEMPLE is made by GOD and is not of human hands. This sanctifies the BLOOD OF CHRIST in the HOLY EUCHARIST. And plants the seed which is the TRUE VINE.

JESUS is the BREAD OF LIFE and the BRIDEGROOM. This means we are wed to CHRIST in the unity of the flesh. You’ll notice JESUS left JOSEPH AND MARY and was found at the temple. Then in the Crucifixion JESUS gives us HIS BODY. This fulfills the scripture:
Genesis 2:24 *Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.

We should make it abundantly clear that JESUS is asking us to marry HIM in the crucifixion. This is the meaning, i believe, of the wedding feast of the LAMB. Thus the TEMPLE made not of human hands, is built of the SPIRITual stones of the Saints, in the Promised LAND of HEAVEN across the SPIRITual Jordan River.

Further more JESUS was a man, being also GOD. We call it the “hypostatic union” that means the BODY OF CHRIST which is gifted to us upon the Cross, in an offering of marriage between GOD AND MAN, also has a soul, that soul, is THE HOLY SPIRIT that makes HIS TEMPLE in us, the BODY OF CHRIST, dwelling withing our hearts. Thus it is also said THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is within you.

Further, this is salvation itself, because THE CHURCH becomes the Ark which rides upon the sea of peoples. And of course MOTHER MARY is our Ark which brings us the HOLY EUCHARIST which makes us her children. Which fulfills the Scripture:
Genesis 3:20 *And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living.

The HOLY EUCHARIST is the sense perceptible sign of GOD among us, though dying upon the cross never left us, rising, never left us, and ascending to HEAVEN never left us. Because we are united to JESUS of the flesh, and THE HOLY SPIRIT dwells within us. Even as the sense perceptible sign of GOD among the Hebrews was the Ark of the Covenant and the measure by which the covenant was to be fulfilled. Our measure is JESUS CHRIST, and in keeping the commandments, being washed in HIS BLOOD, we have forgiveness that we may enter into the GLORY OF HEAVEN.

We see in the story of Noah that only one was found righteous and was saved, again in the story of Lot we see only one was found righteous and was saved. The meaning of this is that we are all one in CHRIST, and by being ONE BODY IN CHRIST and CHRIST being the only one found worthy to enter into the GLORY OF HEAVEN, that only through CHRIST is there salvation. By no other way can a man enter into the GLORY OF HEAVEN. Thus through the BODY AND BLOOD of our LORD JESUS CHRIST in the UNITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT we are made ONE BODY that will be redeemed from the sea of peoples, the flood of peoples, which springs forth from Abraham our father in faith . …

LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Amen.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Where is the works declaration? The Word specifically says to him that worketh NOT.

I asked you first…

There is no faith alone declaration just there is no works alone declaration.

Now show me the Faith Alone declaration that you believe is there.

 

[savedsinner]

You can’t “gain access” by sacraments… that’s called work. We receive this redemption by faith alone. The Word of God teaches that we cannot receive this by our own works but by the faith we have in the finished work of Jesus. When we receive this free gift by faith alone, His righteousness is imputed to us just as sin was imputed to us through Adam.

I think you are confusing “redemption” with “salvation”.

Salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. Christ has already redeemed us, unlocked the gates of haven, as it were. Redemption is not the same as salvation but is a necessary prelude. Christ did his part, and now we have to cooperate by doing ours.

The sacraments are a gift from God, and they impute sanctifying grace which is required to enter heaven. And they are a free gift, and they are by Faith.

 

[HailMary]

Where is the works declaration? The Word specifically says to him that worketh NOT.

believers, here are some references that indicate the importants of works (not to be confused with “Works of the Law”). Please note, Catholic do not claim that it is works alone or anything of that nature.

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord … give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness … and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

Matthew 5:20
Except **your righteousness **shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and** thy neighbour as thyself**. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. … For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Philippians 2:12
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work.

Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Romans 8:24
For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?
*note: faith is not hope and hope is not faith

etc. you see that faith and your moral life are intrinsically related?