What do Catholics Believe?

[alwayswill]

Let’s establish the Scriptural definition of faith:

Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.*For by it the men of old received divine approval.*By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.
In light of what faith is, what is more accurate to Teach:

We are saved through:

A) faith

B) works

C) faith and works

The whole council of Scripture give a more accurate description of faith than that single verse.

from the Vatican website
vatican.va/roman_curia/po…unione_en.html

“128. Since faith is understood not only as affirmative knowledge, but also as** the trust of the heart that bases itself on the Word of God,”**

I will be using that description of faith.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–”
Ephesians 2:8

I’ll frame the issue like this:
Is it possible that a faith that does come from God not to save?
Is it possible that a faith that does **not **come from God to save?

If your next question is what kind of faith does not come from God?
I offer these examples

Faith in self is not from God
Faith in your good works is not from God.
Faith in Oprah and Dr. Phil is not from God…
faith in idols is not from God
faith in false gods is not from God
Faith in a god you created is not from God
even your faith in your own faith is not from God
A false, useless faith that is the spiritual equivalent of no faith (ie faithlessness) is not from God

So the answer to my own questions are
It is** impossible** that a faith that does come from God not to save.
It is impossible that a faith that does **not **come from God to save.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

And because you must have a faith that comes from God before you can please God;
The answer to your question is:
We are saved through FAITH prior to doing any work that is pleasing to God.

just to clarify; I’ll add this
It impossible for for those who have a faith from God to oppose works of charity in love.

 

[JonNC]

In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I heard that Catholics believe that you must do good works to get to heaven. If the answer is no, thank you for taking the time to read my post. If the answer is yes, can you tell me why. I am trying to learn more about catholic beliefs.

Welcome to CAF.

I think, first, it must be mentioned that, by and large, Christians believe that we are saved only by God’s grace. It is grace that saves. That said,

You don’t indicate what faith communion you are a member of, so let me share the Lutheran take on this. From Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Though our good works cannot save us, faith that has no works is a dead faith, not a saving faith.

Jon

 

[Memaw]

In the parable of the Last Judgment, in Matt 25-31ff, Jesus describes the final judgment, dividing the saved and the damned into two groups, based entirely on their works. (“When you did it for the least of these, you did it for me.”) He bases his judgment on how they treated their neighbor. He doesn’t mention their faith or lack of faith, but only their works: (“For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink.”)

Of course, neither Catholics nor Protestants believe that salvation is based solely on works. In fact, Catholics would affirm that we are saved by grace alone, and that saving faith encompasses living in Christ and following his commands. But if I were to read this passage of the bible seriously with its emphasis on how we treat others as the criterion of how we will be judged on the last day, I would take good works as a serious responsibility indeed.

AMEN and this is what the Catholic Church DOES teach.Don’t believe everything you hear about us, come and find out for yourself. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

You won’t find me disagreeing with that.
Every true believer will desire that:

Every true believer should desire the Fullness of TRUTH also. God Bless, Memaw

 

[rcwitness]

The whole council of Scripture give a more accurate description of faith than that single verse.

from the Vatican website
vatican.va/roman_curia/po…unione_en.html

“128. Since faith is understood not only as affirmative knowledge, but also as** the trust of the heart that bases itself on the Word of God,”**

I will be using that description of faith.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–”
Ephesians 2:8

I’ll frame the issue like this:
Is it possible that a faith that does come from God not to save?
Is it possible that a faith that does **not **come from God to save?

If your next question is what kind of faith does not come from God?
I offer these examples

Faith in self is not from God
Faith in your good works is not from God.
Faith in Oprah and Dr. Phil is not from God…
faith in idols is not from God
faith in false gods is not from God
Faith in a god you created is not from God
even your faith in your own faith is not from God
A false, useless faith that is the spiritual equivalent of no faith (ie faithlessness) is not from God

So the answer to my own questions are
It is** impossible** that a faith that does come from God not to save.
It is impossible that a faith that does **not **come from God to save.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

And because you must have a faith that comes from God before you can please God;
The answer to your question is:
We are saved through FAITH prior to doing any work that is pleasing to God.

just to clarify; I’ll add this
It impossible for for those who have a faith from God to oppose works of charity in love.

Again, I think you have not contradicted the Catholic Faith

If you read the whole chapter 11 of Hebrews about faith, it’s evident that faith is what all the people of God used to see and understand Him. They all, then, obeyed and acted according to their faith through the works which completed the faith!

I don’t want to seem oppositional here, with you. I think we agree. And too many discussions about this issue, and others, have a spirit of oppositionalism, which gets tiresome.

We agree! The doctrine of Faith and Works is like you describe! Faith is necessary, and comes first when pleasing the Lord. Yet faith without willful response/action/work, becomes a rejection of faith.

Can we have faith and not works? Yes, and no. We can appeal to Jesus through faith, receiving His forgiveness, but without the work which faith compels us to do, we incur condemnation for spurn in His grace in vain.

So, in the end, this is why we believe Faith and Works are essential to our salvation. It’s not that we can do work without faith. That would be a works based doctrine.

 

[rcwitness]

We contend that it is through faith, that we believe faith completed by works is that which saves. And that our Father, His Son and their Holy Spirit is who saves us. Our necessary co-operation with God, for our salvation, is to turn from unfaithfulness and devote to His good will. This demands submission, sacrifice, and consent to His Spirit working through us.

The conclusion of the passage on faith in Hebrews is interesting. It reveals that apart from Jesus and His church, the men of old were not completed.

39*And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised,40since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

This is a mystery of the body of Christ!

 

[Wesrock]

The whole council of Scripture give a more accurate description of faith than that single verse.

from the Vatican website
vatican.va/roman_curia/po…unione_en.html

“128. Since faith is understood not only as affirmative knowledge, but also as** the trust of the heart that bases itself on the Word of God,”**

I will be using that description of faith.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–”
Ephesians 2:8

I’ll frame the issue like this:
Is it possible that a faith that does come from God not to save?
Is it possible that a faith that does **not **come from God to save?

If your next question is what kind of faith does not come from God?
I offer these examples

Faith in self is not from God
Faith in your good works is not from God.
Faith in Oprah and Dr. Phil is not from God…
faith in idols is not from God
faith in false gods is not from God
Faith in a god you created is not from God
even your faith in your own faith is not from God
A false, useless faith that is the spiritual equivalent of no faith (ie faithlessness) is not from God

So the answer to my own questions are
It is** impossible** that a faith that does come from God not to save.
It is impossible that a faith that does **not **come from God to save.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

And because you must have a faith that comes from God before you can please God;
The answer to your question is:
We are saved through FAITH prior to doing any work that is pleasing to God.

just to clarify; I’ll add this
It impossible for for those who have a faith from God to oppose works of charity in love.

There are deeper issues at work, as Catholics have a different idea of how God’s grace works in us than many Protestants do (though Protestants themselves range widely among themselves). Catholics do not believe that we are simply washed clean without any participation or (name removed by moderator)ut on our part, or that we are simply clothed in white gowns and all is good. We emphasize a cooperation with grace, which is why we have never dropped the term works. Some denominations believe that there is no cooperation, that once God gives his grace we are swept along by it without any (name removed by moderator)ut from ourselves. That is not Catholic belief. Certainly our works in themselves can never merit salvation, but as adopted sons and daughters we certainly do have some expectations on our responsibilities.

And the idea that we just need to drop the term works and speak of “true saving faith?” Why? It leads to some people thinking that intellectual assent is enough regardless of how they live their lives. It leads others to believe God is entirely responsible for directing us once this grace is received, like automatons. The Church has never stressed works alone or said that our own works merit salvation – it has condemned such heresies. It has always emphasized both faith and works together.

 

[rcwitness]

I’ll frame the issue like this:
Is it possible that a faith that does come from God not to save?
Is it possible that a faith that does **not **come from God to save?

just to clarify; I’ll add this
It impossible for for those who have a faith from God to oppose works of charity in love.

I would also like to clarify something.

Are you implying that someone who believed, yet did not do works, was never saved at all?

If so, I would disagree. And it’s important. Here is why. Faith is a gift and we receive it freely. We confess and accept, with true belief, that Jesus was the son of God sent to die on behalf of us and our sins. We can receive this forgiveness and salvation at this point, yet turn from what the faith calls us to do! And I’m sure this happens many, many, many times. And by men and women in all different places within the Church. Consider this passage, right before the faith discourse in Hebrews:

28A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.29How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by **the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?**30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

We can be saved from destruction, only to turn away from the path of faith. We can be washed, only to be swallowed by the uncleanliness of the world again. And this state is worse than a nonbeliever.

 

[rcwitness]

Consider, also, St Augustine’s comments on the parable of the Wheat and Tares:

O you Christians, whose lives are good, you sigh and groan as being few among many, few among very many. The winter will pass away, the summer will come; lo! The harvest will soon be here. The angels will come who can make the separation, and who cannot make mistakes. … I tell you of a truth, my Beloved, even in these high seats there is both wheat, and tares, and among the laity there is wheat, and tares. Let the good tolerate the bad; let the bad change themselves, and imitate the good. Let us all, if it may be so, attain to God; let us all through His mercy escape the evil of this world. Let us seek after good days, for we are now in evil days; but in the evil days let us not blaspheme, that so we may be able to arrive at the good days."

 

[alwayswill]

I would also like to clarify something.

Are you implying that someone who believed, yet did not do works, was never saved at all?

…

As OSAS is a separate topic:
I would say
that someone who believed, yet did not do works, was never saved at all or is not currently saved.

 

[rcwitness]

As OSAS is a separate topic:
I would say
that someone who believed, yet did not do works, was never saved at all or is not currently saved.

This contradicts Hebrews 10 which shows a man can be “sanctified” yet profane the Lord and His grace by falling back into what he rejected, and continued without repentance.

It is what Paul condemned at the abuses of the Lord’s Supper, and what Jesus called the Ephesians out of in Revelations 2. It is what Paul warns of the believer who does not provide for his own relatives, and so be “worse than an unbeliever”.

In either case, you assent to the necessity of works in the life of a believer, who is saved.

 

[rcwitness]

Though our good works cannot save us, faith that has no works is a dead faith, not a saving faith.

Jon

Thanks Jon.
I agree works don’t save us also. And it’s not faith that compels someone to merely claim the faith without doing what the faith compells/confirms/convicts/approves us to do! Yet, good works are the co-operation with Him who reconciled us.

Faith must be completed by its purpose for it to be of advantage to us. We did not pay the price of reconciliation, but if we are reconciled He will work through us.

 

[Church_Militant]

no one enters heaven with a false profession of faith;

conversely: **is there any one with a true faith **

(". Since faith is understood not only as affirmative knowledge, but also as the trust of the heart that bases itself on the Word of God," vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html)
that would not desire to do good works?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.
But doesn’t Romans 3:28 say “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
This has led me to make the conclusion that we are not saved through deeds, but for deeds. Paul emphasized the first part of salvation: Faith. And James emphasized what people with faith do: Works.
Collossians 2:13 13 “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins”

I agree that working for God is good, but where does it say that they are vital to salvation? If you could give me a verse, I would help me out a lot.

In the parable of the Last Judgment, in Matt 25-31ff, Jesus describes the final judgment, dividing the saved and the damned into two groups, based entirely on their works. (“When you did it for the least of these, you did it for me.”) He bases his judgment on how they treated their neighbor. He doesn’t mention their faith or lack of faith, but only their works: (“For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink.”)

Of course, neither Catholics nor Protestants believe that salvation is based solely on works. In fact, Catholics would affirm that we are saved by grace alone, and that saving faith encompasses living in Christ and following his commands. But if I were to read this passage of the bible seriously with its emphasis on how we treat others as the criterion of how we will be judged on the last day, I would take good works as a serious responsibility indeed.

Exactly! Since Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ specifically states that He will judge us all based upon whether we have done what He commanded us and specifically these works then ya gotta accept that if one does not obey and do them then ones salvation is in jeopardy. At least that’s what Christ said…

Welcome to the forum DC. Unique username…
Anyway, no. I have never met a Catholic in their right mind who believe they are ‘working their way to heaven’. We are saved by the grace of God.

Yep, that makes 2 of us Brother.

Every true believer will suffer with Christ, since He is in them
The goats are not true believers

I think that the vast majority of people in general and especially prosperity gospel n-Cs have a real problem with this and have been misled by their teachers that they only suffer if they are outside of God’s will. I would also suggest that is Christians made themselves familiar with the history and writings of the early church until the 4th century they’d soon conclude that their beliefs are out of whack since the early church paid huge dues for their faith and died on a daily basis in ways none of us want to even think about. Were they not faithful believers? Was it not their profession of and life of faith that got them convicted and condemned?

Every true believer should desire the Fullness of TRUTH also. God Bless, Memaw

Absolutely! Since Jesus told us that He is the truth, then it only makes sense that all Christians should want that fullness.

 

[JustaServant]

Hopefully DC will return to further converse.

 

[rcwitness]

Hopefully DC will return to further converse.

It would be nice to hear his/her conclusion of some Catholic replies. Though I admire the simplicity of the appreciation offered, and not an attitude to argue. It is a fine line to debate and fight sometimes… but a line that we should all be conscious of. And the fact that so many members here in CA do respect that line is what keeps me here. Moderators do well at quality control too. I only had one friend I wished would not have been “removed”…

 

[Techno2000]

In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I heard that Catholics believe that you must do good works to get to heaven. If the answer is no, thank you for taking the time to read my post. If the answer is yes, can you tell me why. I am trying to learn more about catholic beliefs.

God opening Heaven to Mankind was a free gift, but your degree of Glory in Heaven is determined by your Good works.

 

[rcwitness]

Consider the parable of the 10 Virgins. What do you think is the oil for the lamp? The Church fathers thought it to be good works.

Matthew 25 commentary

Ver. 1.*Ten virgins.By these are signified all mankind. By thebridegroom,*Christ; by thebride,the Church; byoil,*grace and charity. (Witham) — The kingdom of heaven is not unfrequently compared to the Church militant; which, as it is composed of both just and wicked, reprobate and elect, is deservedly compared to five wise and five foolish virgins: the wise constantly aspiring after their blessed country; the foolish, with all their fasts and austerities, wishing to procure nothing more than the empty esteem of men. (St. Gregory) —*Went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride;*in the Greek, it is simply,*before the bridegroom.*The custom among the Jews was, that the bridegroom should go to fetch his spouse, and conduct her with solemnity to his house. (Bible de Vence) — This was the conclusive ceremony, and done in the night-time. The young women of the vicinity, in order to do her honour, went to meet her with lighted lamps. Modern travellers inform us, that this custom still obtains with the eastern nations, particularly the Persians. Hence the Latin phrase,*ducere uxorem, to marry.

Ver. 4.But the wise took oil.Under this parable, we have the state of all Christians in their mortal pilgrimage justly delineated. The wise took oil in their lamps, the necessary qualifications of grace and charity, joined with divine faith, and an additional supply of oil in their vessels; i.e. they laid up in store for themselves a solid foundation of good works. St. Gregory teaches, that by thelamps,faith is meant; and by thelight,good works. Hence he concludes that the bad, although they have lamps, i.e. faith, no less than the good, shall be excluded; because their lamps are out, i.e. their faith is dead, without charity and good works to enlighten them. (hom. xii.) — St. Augustine also declares, that these lighted lamps are good works, viz. works of mercy and good conversation, which shine forth before men. (ep. 120. chap. xxxiii.) — And, that this oil is a right inward intention, directing all our works to the greater glory of God, and not to the praise of ourselves in the sight of men. (Idem.ibid.[St. Augustine, ep. 120. chap. xxxiii.]) — The foolish virgins had a little oil in their lamps at first, sufficient to shine before men, by some little external shew of piety, or certain works done through fear, profit, or human respects; but had made noprovision of oil in their vessels, i.e. in their hearts and conscience, no provisionof solid piety and charity, by means of which they might, like the prudent virgins, produce good works to salvation. (Jansenius)

 

[Seachange]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.
But doesn’t Romans 3:28 say “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
This has led me to make the conclusion that we are not saved through deeds, but for deeds. Paul emphasized the first part of salvation: Faith. And James emphasized what people with faith do: Works.
Collossians 2:13 13 “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins”

Paul says, ‘deeds of the law’ not just ‘deeds’, an important distinction. Read Chapters 1-3 for the discussion which Paul is concluding in this verse.

Paul is talking about following the Law of Moses and saying that even following it to the letter will not bring us salvation.

There were Jewish converts in Rome at the time who maintained that Christians must still follow the Law of Moses to be saved. The Jewish converts were teaching the gentile converts that they must be circumcised as well as follow all the dietary restrictions and the rest of the Law. These were the ‘deeds of the law’ about which Paul was speaking by which man is not justified.

Paul was not talking about the Good Works which James tells us are required or our faith is dead. Good works are not done as part of fulfilling the Law, but come from our hearts prompted by the Holy Spirit living within us.

We are not saved by faith alone, nor by works alone. We are saved by grace through faith and works.

From the Catechism: (bolding mine)

<…>
-** a catechesis of grace, for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life;**

• a catechesis of the beatitudes, for the way of Christ is summed up in the beatitudes, the only path that leads to the eternal beatitude for which the human heart longs;
  <…>
  1698 The first and last point of reference of this catechesis will always be Jesus Christ himself, who is "the way, and the truth, and the life."24 It is by looking to him in faith that Christ’s faithful can hope that he himself fulfills his promises in them, and that, by loving him with the same love with which he has loved them, they may perform works in keeping with their dignity:
  <…>

For further Catholic teaching on Justification - From the Catechism:
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
CHAPTER 3 GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE
ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I agree that working for God is good, but where does it say that they are vital to salvation? If you could give me a verse, I would help me out a lot.

Philippians 2:12 … work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
13
For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

Faith alone does not save. God’s Work is what saves us by His Grace alone. God’s saving Grace is freely given and administered in and through the blessed Trinity, by the sacrament of baptism, “which saves you now” in the New and everlasting Covenant of God.

Those same, saved Christians are called to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. A work, by virtue of the sacrament of reconciliation (Grace saves), when we fall into temptation, and be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, in the consummation of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity (Eucharist, where the fullness of Grace abounds in True Presence).

To “work out my own salvation”, is a work to Love my enemy, Love my neighbor as myself and most importantly to Love God with all my heart, mind and strength, for in this Love, fulfills the law and the prophets from which I fear and tremble, less I offend God.

Faith alone, has no covenant with God to do good works. For was not Abraham justified by his works and not by faith alone?

Faith that is professed publicly before God and man (baptism, creed) and revealed from the sacramental divine economy, is a faith and work that saves.

 

[Jennifer132]

OP, as a fellow Protestant myself, considering converting, I don’t feel like I have the ability to answer your question well. But I will say I have read a really wonderful book by Jimmy Akin called The Drama of Salvation that really helped me understand the Catholic position. You might look at it and see if it would help you as well. Also, the Catechism of the Catholic Church has a lot to say on the subject as well.