What do Evangelicals say about Fatima?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The 89th anniversary of the Miracle at Fatima is tomorrow, October 13. Over 70,000 people, including Masons, communists and atheist, witnessed the sun dance in the sky, throw off multi-colors and descend to the earth. They looked directly at the sun for approx. 10 minutes and nobody was blinded! Many newspapers around the world reported it including the New York Times.

I have never asked non-Catholics but what do Evangelicals and Protestants say about this miracle? How can they deny this truth and the message delivered by the Blessed Virgin Mary?

1.What do Catholics think about the Great Awakening ? ​

Pretty much the same, I should imagine

2. I think I believe in the authenticity of the apparitions to St. Bernardette - but Fatima ? Too many questionable features, IMO.

One problem with Fatima I have is that it seems in practice to be treated as something which is neither public revelation nor private revelation - it’s as though it were in between.

And it seems to exalt Mary an awful lot - the NT exalts only Christ; the Biblical Mary is so quiet that & un-self-exalting that she is easily overlooked, whereas the Mary of modern apparitions is - different.

3. To answer your question - because the apparition-Mary seems to be different in character from the Biblical one: there is a difference of atmosphere, taste, feel; the difference is intangible, & not reducible to reason; but it’s real for all that.

Many Protestants are unlikely to be enthusiastic about post-Biblical apparitions - the Resurrection appearances are guaranteed, for a lot of people, by being within an inspired book; whereas the Fatima ones are guaranteed not by the inspiration of the truth-telling Spirit of God, but by the fallible, uninspired, error-prone testimony of men who are not even apostles: so there is no reason (as many Protestants will view matters) to recommend these alleged apparitions to them, let alone vindicate them as genuinely sent of God.

Besides, many will be aware of St. Paul’s words:

• “Satan can transform Himself into an angel of light”;
  &
• Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
  There is nothing in these apparitions - from certain POVS - that doesn’t fit with the idea that they are evil delusions; that Catholics believe them, is no proof they are genuine, but does fit with the notion that Catholics are blinded by God so as to believe a lie (see 2 Thessalonians 2). So people do have reasons for their harsh-sounding POVs; just as we do for ours.

The only way to recommend them rationally to Protestants of this sort - mainly Calvinist - is to persuade them that Catholicism is Christian. Then Marian apparitions may seem credibly Christian; but not, I think, before.

Of course, not all Evangelicals take this hard-headed & principled & articulate approach - some have a less articulate position; they just find it impossible to think of anything Catholic as remotely credible. IMO, it is harder to reason with the latter than the former; Calvinists can at least give clear reasons for their rejection of Catholic things; because they know why they believe as they do, & why they do not believe what they reject.

Hope that helps

 

[glimmer]

Personally, I know two non-affiliated, non-Catholics who would take a very hard line approach to the apparitions thing, but they both had a dead relative contact them. This did not square with anybody’s theology, but it happened anyway.

One of the people was my uncle–and you talk about hard nosed! He is a retired aeronautical engineer who thinks in equations. He was writing a letter to his sister and didn’t realize she had just died. He was almost asleep in his chair when he heard her call his name. He came to, but thought he must be dreaming or imagining. Then in the next minute he heard her call again a bit more insistent.

That got his attention. She made a comment that only he and she would have understood. He had told her all her life she should make sure the children get to church because nobody was teaching them right, but she never would commit to it. She had lots and lots of problems with her kids–and I have observed all sorts of New Age junk in their beliefs. So what did she say to him, you ask? She said, “You were right. I’m going now.” And I suppose that was her exit into eternity or something.

Not exactly an apparition, but not exactly the typical Protestant miracle, either. But I do not think these people stay on the earth as ghosts, but they are not soul-sleeping either, apparently.

 

[Georgess]

’ There will be signs in the sun …’ for a people who can be humble, trusting and loving and open to the movements of The Spirit …like our Bl. Mother is …

to a world that had become callous and uncaring , with the about to unfold cataclysm of atheism and all the terrors that came with it , The Lord sent His Mother …hoping to move hearts …like the time when she came to visit St. Elisabeth …instead of having to call His children ‘you brood of vipers …’ like St .John The Baptist , The Lord in His Mercy send His Mother …asking for child like trust … that in turn would bring in her poweful intercession …for the milllions who had lost faith and hope …

And it all brought fruit …like The Mother herself …the miracle of a world saved from nuclear annilhilation and the instant death of many esp. in the U.S who was the main target , many who would have been in an unrepentant state …

(www.opusangelorum.org - under Holyrosary for details .)

So when she calls to be given a role in our lives , to bring in the aid of intercession, it is in the context of the wisdom of The Church …for The Merits of The Cross, that need to be accepted , with trust and humility - with hearts like hers …

Today is The Feast of St. John of Capistrano …and God gives another subtle yet powerful sign ( not that The Churh has been asking for signs …but joyfully ready to receive what pleases The Father to give …? may be such as - to one that has …more shall be given …) …of the swallows that return home on his Feast Day …nature , in rhythtm with its Lord and His Church …like The Mother …who is also the perfection of that rhyhtm in a creature …and she calls to her children .to come and receive …through The Church …The Bride …perfected …by The Groom …so that the children too would return …in repentance …to Feast at the Banquet of The Sacraments …

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Karl Keating, in Catholocism and Fundamentalism said he once heard an eldery priest, who as a boy in the Canary Islands, was blessed to witness the miracle of the sun. His parents and neighbors thought he was crazy, until weeks later the reports started comming in.

Without looking it up in an atlas, the Canary islands, I think, are about 1000 miles away from the Iberian peninsula.

CORRECTION: KK said the priest was from the Azores, NOT the Canary Islands—which I think are off the Iberian Peninsula, but still A LONG way from Fatima

 

[Mimi]

I grew up loosely in the “Protestant” camp (mostly unchurched, though) and only found out this year that other people might call me an “Evangelical”–funny, I always thought they were somebody else. All Protestants do not share the same ideas, though.

(snip)

If I never see another miracle, it will not matter, for I am not chasing miracles, angels, saints or anything else. I have the greatest treasure whom I discovered in the “dark night of the soul”–Jesus Christ the Risen–who is our Life and our Living. He IS the Treasure. I believe that Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Church, not the Bible, Saints, Angels, etc. He is inseparable from the Holy Spirit.

(snip).

Sounds like St. John of the Cross; he advised us to keep our eyes on Jesus (not quoting here) and not put our faith in miracles and apparitions, even to pray to God NOT to be sent an apparition.

I’ve heard (from watching The Journey Home) that people from non-Catholic backgrounds do not know of the phenomenon of the “Dark night of the soul”. Interesting that you experienced and recognized it as such. I pray that I will be strong enough to endure that if God so wills that.

This is an interesting and (so far) non-controversial thread; I hope it continues for a while yet.

I’d like to put in a positive plug for Michael O’Brien’s books; Plague Journal, etc. I haven’t read all of them, but he is an excellent writer, one of the best in this genre I’ve come across (if not THE best). Bud MacFarlane’s trilogy is good, too. I don’t like that most of his characters smoke cigarettes, but they are real people who practice Catholicism, praying the rosary together and going to Mass together. Bud’s books are available Free (you may make a donation) through www.stjudemedia.com

Mimi

 

[JoeyWarren]

My only problem with Fatima, is the Pope holding on to the last prophecy(secret). I saw a history channel feature last night about this. I really think we are intelligent to handle it, whatever it is.

 

[glimmer]

I’ve heard (from watching The Journey Home) that people from non-Catholic backgrounds do not know of the phenomenon of the “Dark night of the soul”. Interesting that you experienced and recognized it as such. I pray that I will be strong enough to endure that if God so wills that.

I did not know what it was when I went through it. Later, a Baptist told me about the “dark night of the soul”, so I think a lot of non-Catholics must know the concept. But it is not a matter of being strong. You will be destroyed and what will be left is Christ. Not saying your human propensity for sin will not persist, but you will know that your faith is not really your own in a very real way. You will come to know His faith working in and apart from you. Every fruit-bearing seed must go into the ground and die.

 

[JoeyWarren]

dark night of the soul

Never heard of it until this thread…

 

[sandmountainsli]

Speaking as a Presbyterian-Methodist and forgive me if this sounds rude but the apparitions at Fatima and elsewhere sound ALOT like Joseph Smith’s visions of “Moroni” or whomever and in my opinion are not the work of Our Lord.
WP

 

[JoeyWarren]

Speaking as a Presbyterian-Methodist and forgive me if this sounds rude but the apparitions at Fatima and elsewhere sound ALOT like Joseph Smith’s visions of “Moroni” or whomever and in my opinion are not the work of Our Lord.
WP

Now it gets interesting…

btw, what is a Presbyterian-Methodist?

 

[sandmountainsli]

Now it gets interesting…

btw, what is a Presbyterian-Methodist?

I am a Presbyterian who attends a Methodist Church because there are no Pres Churches in my area.
Hope I didn’t touch a nerve with Moroni but do the two instances sound a bit similar? I believe the Romists and Protties will agree that the Book of Mormon is NOT part of the canon.
WP

 

[JoeyWarren]

I am a Presbyterian who attends a Methodist Church because there are no Pres Churches in my area.

ahhh!

 

[JoeyWarren]

Hope I didn’t touch a nerve with Moroni but do the two instances sound a bit similar? I believe the Romists and Protties will agree that the Book of Mormon is NOT part of the canon.

not sure but we will see. Since I don’t much of either, I will silent on the matter.

 

[E.E.N.S]

My only problem with Fatima, is the Pope holding on to the last prophecy(secret). I saw a history channel feature last night about this. I really think we are intelligent to handle it, whatever it is.

The third part of the “secret” has already been revealed.

Sister Lucia had already given an indication for interpreting the third part of the “secret” in a letter to the Holy Father, dated 12 May 1982:

*“The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady’s words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated’ (13-VII-1917). *

*The third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message, conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.’. *

*Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc. *

And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.(5)

The decision of His Holiness Pope John Paul II to make public the third part of the “secret” of Fatima brings to an end a period of history marked by tragic human lust for power and evil, yet pervaded by the merciful love of God and the watchful care of the Mother of Jesus and of the Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[E.E.N.S]

Speaking as a Presbyterian-Methodist and forgive me if this sounds rude but the apparitions at Fatima and elsewhere sound ALOT like Joseph Smith’s visions of “Moroni” or whomever and in my opinion are not the work of Our Lord.
WP

Joseph Smith’s visions of “Moroni” had 70,000 witnesses?

 

[JoeyWarren]

The third part of the “secret” has already been revealed.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

?

(6) In the “Fourth Memoir” of 8 December 1941 Sister Lucia writes: “I shall begin then my new task, and thus fulfil the commands received from Your Excellency as well as the desires of Dr Galamba. With the exception of that part of the Secret which I am not permitted to reveal at present, I shall say everything. I shall not knowingly omit anything, though I suppose I may forget just a few small details of minor importance”.

She did not reveal everything? Are we so sure, she took that information to the grave with her?

 

[sandmountainsli]

Joseph Smith’s visions of “Moroni” had 70,000 witnesses?

It has millions of believers

"I got an angel name 'a Bony Moroni, He as skinny as a stick of Macarone-Eye "

Bad play on an old rock n roll song
WP

 

[mo3]

I am a Presbyterian who attends a Methodist Church because there are no Pres Churches in my area.
Hope I didn’t touch a nerve with Moroni but do the two instances sound a bit similar? I believe the Romists and Protties will agree that the Book of Mormon is NOT part of the canon.
WP

Please investigate Fatima in more detail. You will learn there is nothing that contradicts the Holy Bible or any teachings of Jesus Christ. To the contrary, it reinforces them. Three innocent children were threatened by authorities with being burned by oil. They would not recant there facts. They told authorities for months in advance that there would be proof on October 13, 1917. On that day, 70,000 people showed up and witnessed something spectacular which was reported in the secular media. In the fields of Portugal, it rained all day and everyone was wet and muddy. After the sky cleared up and the Sun danced for 10 minutes, everyone was completely dry, their clothing and shoes were clean from mud, and thousands of people converted and believed in Jesus Christ. Thousand of people who were 10 – 12 miles away from the Fatima site also witnessed the miracle.
The authorities stopped harassing the children. I think Jesus want us to believe like children in Him.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Speaking as a Presbyterian-Methodist and forgive me if this sounds rude but the apparitions at Fatima and elsewhere sound ALOT like Joseph Smith’s visions of “Moroni” or whomever and in my opinion are not the work of Our Lord.
WP

Joseph Smith’s “revelations” (spread over several years) were a radical departure from the Methodist/Presbyterian/Congregationist milleu he was raised in. He found some people who were gullible enough to swallow it–sometimes I think that Abraham Lincoln, in his speech that said “you can fool some of the people all of the time” may have been refering to the mormons he knew about in Illinois

On the contrary, the visionaries of Fatima were extensively questioned, cross examined (often quite harshly) by Church authorities, theologians, and non-Church examines. Their revelations were subject to pitiless examination over years. NOTHING in them was found contrary to the Catholic faith (whatever you may think of the the Catholic faith, the children did NOT depart from it)–See the difference there?

Joseph Smith Jr got to be the total dictator of a religious sect, and and eventually his “revelations” allowed him to have sex with a lot of other men’s wives—it was his own obnoxious behavior that provoked him fleeing from the authorities in several jurisdictions, being tar & feathered once, jailed for six months once, and eventually lynched–but in the meantime he had authority, fame, and reverence unto worship.

What were the three children promised? Two of them received what the Blessed Mother fortold they would have to undergo; very early, very painful deaths. The other one is a cloistered sister, who lived a long enough life to see the worst revelations come true. She shuns publicity who quite privatly joins her sufferings unto Christ’s, as she was commanded to do.

 

[jmcrae]

I am a Presbyterian who attends a Methodist Church because there are no Pres Churches in my area.
Hope I didn’t touch a nerve with Moroni but do the two instances sound a bit similar? I believe the Romists and Protties will agree that the Book of Mormon is NOT part of the canon.
WP

But the “tablets of Moroni” conveniently vanished back into Heaven as soon as Joseph himself had “translated” them - into English - which was still a minority language, at the time.

We still have the prayers that were left by Mother Mary, and given to the three children.

The messages of Fatima were translated into dozens of world languages, as soon as it could be arranged. This message for the world was in fact delivered to the world - it wasn’t kept hidden.

We also still have the journalist photos of what happened at Fatima - and in contrast to “Moroni’s” (I think that name may, in itself, be a clue to something) appearance only to Joseph Smith, Mother Mary appeared to 70,000 people - not all of them saw her, but all of them saw the sun dancing.

Also, the children said things that children of that age aren’t normally capable of saying - their theology all of a sudden became very complex, compared to what it had been before they began having the visions.

The movie that I saw about this event makes that point very clearly, where at the beginning, the children have this very hazy concept of who God is, and of how to pray the Rosary - the conversation between Francesco and the two girls is very typical of kids that age - basically, “let’s get our prayers over with so that we can play” and their “Rosary” has the kind of literalism that is typical of little kids who haven’t quite reached the age of reason, yet - 'Pray a Hail Mary." Okay, “Hail Mary. Amen.” Pray 10 Hail Marys. “Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary Hail Mary, Amen.”

From that, they are suddenly praying the Prayer of Reparation and the Fatima Rosary Prayer, on the same day? No, these little kids didn’t come up with such complex theology or such detailed prayers - not all by themselves.

In addition to that, it is also quite miraculous that they never contradicted any point of doctrine in the Catholic faith - most Catholics, even very devout, and even adults who know their faith reasonably well, if they were under a spotlight the way these kids were, would make a misstatement, or exaggerate, or minimize something - but these kids never once did that.