What do good hard-working Christians get? Not so much as a goat!

[IwishIknew]

Is this merely a hypothetical complaint or a real one? You seem to be implying that the Church demands couple have as many children as possible. That’s decidedly not true. Couples are to be open to life, not push out as many kids as they can engender. We are to use good prudential judgment in the number and pacing of children according to our circumstances. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to post this simple info on the forum this week, but it seems to be theme of complaint that is disingenuous if the poster knows the truth. The Church recommends Natural Family Planning, which involves catering to a wife’s needs instead of giving the husband carte blanche to have sex whenever he wants it. Marriage is a cooperation between two thinking adults with the capacity for self-control. We are expected to use our brains and the virtue of sacrificial love instead of merely giving into our glands like animals. If couples appropriately control themselves there’s no longer any need to grumble about the results of not doing so.

This isn’t a complaint, rather a reflection of a true reality. For example, this morning, our youngest son dropped some nice candles in an open toilet of urine (that another kid had forgotten to flush and close) that we had to reach in and pull out. This happened while we were making lunches prior to rushing the kids off to school. And we worked hard to address this issue with a loving smile and patient education after a night of being woken up by two other kids.

When you have many children - you get pummelled by moments like these. And this is just one example - there are many other kinds of stresses that hit a Catholic parent.

My spouse and I are both very educated catholics and as such are aware of Natural Family planning theories. However, our view of it is that the Church doesn’t expect mutually attracted couples to live in the same room/share the same bed and expect self control to work for years of spacing. We see this as kindof a ridiculous. Also, we love each and every child dearly and want to fulfill God’s command to multiply - despite the many, many struggles of parenting a large family.

Natural family planning to us comes from work and stress levels. When work and stress levels get to high, sexual desires dissipate. That’s natural family planning to us.

Hope that helps provide insight.

 

[LethalMouse]

This isn’t a complaint, rather a reflection of a true reality. For example, this morning, our youngest son dropped some nice candles in an open toilet of urine (that another kid had forgotten to flush and close) that we had to reach in and pull out. This happened while we were making lunches prior to rushing the kids off to school. And we worked hard to address this issue with a loving smile and patient education after a night of being woken up by two other kids.

When you have many children - you get pummelled by moments like these. And this is just one example - there are many other kinds of stresses that hit a Catholic parent.

My spouse and I are both very educated catholics and as such are aware of Natural Family planning theories. However, our view of it is that the Church doesn’t expect mutually attracted couples to live in the same room/share the same bed and expect self control to work for years of spacing. We see this as kindof a ridiculous. Also, we love each and every child dearly and want to fulfill God’s command to multiply - despite the many, many struggles of parenting a large family.

Natural family planning to us comes from work and stress levels. When work and stress levels get to high, sexual desires dissipate. That’s natural family planning to us.

Hope that helps provide insight.

Err but you don’t self control for years… you just do so during the cycles…

 

[IwishIknew]

Err but you don’t self control for years… you just do so during the cycles…

Ok correction - self control for years of cycle management.

 

[Della]

This isn’t a complaint, rather a reflection of a true reality. For example, this morning, our youngest son dropped some nice candles in an open toilet of urine (that another kid had forgotten to flush and close) that we had to reach in and pull out. This happened while we were making lunches prior to rushing the kids off to school. And we worked hard to address this issue with a loving smile and patient education after a night of being woken up by two other kids.

When you have many children - you get pummelled by moments like these. And this is just one example - there are many other kinds of stresses that hit a Catholic parent.

My spouse and I are both very educated catholics and as such are aware of Natural Family planning theories. However, our view of it is that the Church doesn’t expect mutually attracted couples to live in the same room/share the same bed and expect self control to work for years of spacing. We see this as kindof a ridiculous. Also, we love each and every child dearly and want to fulfill God’s command to multiply - despite the many, many struggles of parenting a large family.

Natural family planning to us comes from work and stress levels. When work and stress levels get to high, sexual desires dissipate. That’s natural family planning to us.

Hope that helps provide insight.

I have to say that thinking the Church, which has been dealing with these issues for 2000+ years, is clueless about marital relations between husband/wife is the problem here not abstaining from sex from time to time. It’s not impossible nor ridiculous. Many people do it and have done it with great success.

So what if your kids do things like dump good candles into a soiled toilet. Even if you had one, kids will be kids. If you let it become a litany of reasons why having kids is undesirable, it will bother you. If you simply accept that kids being kids is part of having kids, it won’t become such a problem.

And you are complaining, my friend. If you didn’t want so many kids you should have refrained from sex when needed. It’s really that simple. A little self-control makes couples appreciate each other more, not less. After all, God gave us brains as well as glands. We can control of our libedos–it’s just a matter of knowing that it can be done and then doing it.

 

[IwishIknew]

I have to say that thinking the Church, which has been dealing with these issues for 2000+ years, is clueless about marital relations between husband/wife is the problem here not abstaining from sex from time to time. It’s not impossible nor ridiculous. Many people do it and have done it with great success.

So what if your kids do things like dump good candles into a soiled toilet. Even if you had one, kids will be kids. If you let it become a litany of reasons why having kids is undesirable, it will bother you. If you simply accept that kids being kids is part of having kids, it won’t become such a problem.

And you are complaining, my friend. If you didn’t want so many kids you should have refrained from sex when needed. It’s really that simple. A little self-control makes couples appreciate each other more, not less. After all, God gave us brains as well as glands. We can control of our libedos–it’s just a matter of knowing that it can be done and then doing it.

This is not a complaint - though you may interpret it as such because they sound similar - but it is an articulated suffering that is fully accepted and the children are much loved and we wouldn’t revert to another approach if given a chance to roll back time. There is a world of difference between the two. Hope that helps clarify what you are looking for.

 

[LethalMouse]

Ok correction - self control for years of cycle management.

first world problems. I would agree being Christian in the middleeast these days mught be like the tines of roman persecution. But if the biggest imposition of suffering God gave you is to keep a calendar abd occasionally not knockboots… I wouldn’t call that a hardship. And I have been both married and secular, with very attractive women… I know not doing it isn’t the first thing we want to hear… but if you go the other route, God might not keep your marriage so well in tact. Then you have my previous mentioned party costs. You have dry spells as single parents not having time to find new fun people, you have questionable partners and do the doctor doubke check… yes, the other option is you have to abstain from sex longer. So cycle management to scheduling sex around one free weekend a month. God grants much better for the son who stays home ​

 

[Della]

This is not a complaint - though you may interpret it as such because they sound similar - but it is an articulated suffering that is fully accepted and the children are much loved and we wouldn’t revert to another approach if given a chance to roll back time. There is a world of difference between the two. Hope that helps clarify what you are looking for.

I’m not looking for anything. I can’t agree that kids doing kid things is “suffering.” I think you might want to look into why you characterized it that way.

 

[IwishIknew]

I’m not looking for anything. I can’t agree that kids doing kid things is “suffering.” I think you might want to look into why you characterized it that way.

If you don’t think raising several kids is without a whole lot of stressful suffering then, I don’t know what I can do to help you empathize with this truth. Many Catholics do realize this and to avoid the overwhelming suffering they selfishly choose birth control.

 

[LethalMouse]

If you don’t think raising several kids is without a whole lot of stressful suffering then, I don’t know what I can do to help you empathize with this truth. Many Catholics do realize this and to avoid the overwhelming suffering they selfishly choose birth control.

I was with you a bit, but the tone of this, you kinda lost me… my previous post was meant to cast light on what you just weren’t seeing because we all get down with our first world problems… I do all the time.

But this is like another level. Stress? Yeah, my job can be stressful but suffering? Do you know what “suffering” is? Have you ever actually suffered? … Idk man…

 

[IwishIknew]

I was with you a bit, but the tone of this, you kinda lost me… my previous post was meant to cast light on what you just weren’t seeing because we all get down with our first world problems… I do all the time.

But this is like another level. Stress? Yeah, my job can be stressful but suffering? Do you know what “suffering” is? Have you ever actually suffered? … Idk man…

Christ said that if we hold to his commands we will suffer and need to take up the cross daily. He meant that everyone who embraces their vocation fully (a patient, loving parent with many kids, a priest who boldly reflects the Catechism, esp the hard to discuss topics, a nun who gives up family and embraces a human lonesomeness) will suffer daily carrying that cross - whether that person is in the first world or the third world. The toilet bowl example of today may sound funny and petty to you and certainly could have been used in a comedy about a large family - but while it is happening, it is awful while rushing to put together everyone’s lunches to ensure the kids got to school on time.

If one stubs a toe and lifts a toe nail - we can all say that is 1st world pettiness, but while it is happening, it is the most painful thing even though it only affected less than one percent of that person’s body. That is daily suffering - the type of daily suffering that all of us encounter which Christ set the expectations that we would face.

The small daily sufferings of a 1st world person, if handled well in a Christian manner, can result in tremendous value in the Kingdom of Heaven and Little Saint Theresa attests to that. She suffered greatly in many small and seemingly petty 1st world ways. One could argue that she was given a free home in a convent with people who work hard to keep it all nice and tidy - definitely not reflective of first world poverty. She didn’t have to go out and toil under unruly bosses who threatened to fire her. She had not so much as one child to feed, or to care for. A life of retirement, is what a critic could say.

Are there bigger more awful sufferings - yes. One can come up with a countless number. Christ’s final Crucifixion is something that I look to - to remind me no matter how awful the toilet bowl experience is, there is always a worse suffering out there. But nevertheless, raising kids provides a huge number of day to day stresses and sufferings. And the sufferings are not all toilet bowl experiences. They come unexpectedly from every direction and in every shape and form imaginable and test every virtue at any moment of the day.

And now my child is crying loudly in the background… Hope that helps provides some context.

 

[LethalMouse]

Christ said that if we hold to his commands we will suffer and need to take up the cross daily. He meant that everyone who embraces their vocation fully (a patient, loving parent with many kids, a priest who boldly reflects the Catechism, esp the hard to discuss topics, a nun who gives up family and embraces a human lonesomeness) will suffer daily carrying that cross - whether that person is in the first world or the third world. The toilet bowl example of today may sound funny and petty to you and certainly could have been used in a comedy about a large family - but while it is happening, it is awful while rushing to put together everyone’s lunches to ensure the kids got to school on time.

If one stubs a toe and lifts a toe nail - we can all say that is 1st world pettiness, but while it is happening, it is the most painful thing even though it only affected less than one percent of that person’s body. That is daily suffering - the type of daily suffering that all of us encounter which Christ set the expectations that we would face.

The small daily sufferings of a 1st world person, if handled well in a Christian manner, can result in tremendous value in the Kingdom of Heaven and Little Saint Theresa attests to that. She suffered greatly in many small and seemingly petty 1st world ways. One could argue that she was given a free home in a convent with people who work hard to keep it all nice and tidy - definitely not reflective of first world poverty. She didn’t have to go out and toil under unruly bosses who threatened to fire her. She had not so much as one child to feed, or to care for. A life of retirement, is what a critic could say.

Are there bigger more awful sufferings - yes. One can come up with a countless number. Christ’s final Crucifixion is something that I look to - to remind me no matter how awful the toilet bowl experience is, there is always a worse suffering out there. But nevertheless, raising kids provides a huge number of day to day stresses and sufferings. And the sufferings are not all toilet bowl experiences. They come unexpectedly from every direction and in every shape and form imaginable and test every virtue at any moment of the day.

And now my child is crying loudly in the background… Hope that helps provides some context.

Well, whenever you are sad, rememeber I’d pay money for your sufferings.

 

[IwishIknew]

Well, whenever you are sad, rememeber I’d pay money for your sufferings.

Your wish can easily be granted - fund a large family and if you can’t be the parent, be its dedicated nanny.

 

[Duane1966]

Okay, I did miss the one item that can be difficult. But you are doing it? A bit tough yes… but by the grace of God you pull it off? I am sure they exist, but of large family good catholics, I have seen none truly destitute. Struggling? Yes, but not too bad off. They lack the mentality that many struggling families have… I see the poor who struggle and have no restraint. No restraint means they get evicted because they need new cell phones and such… I see few good church going families who both struggle financially and struggle with the “poor mentality” One could think a little Holy guidance and steadfastness? Let alone the inevitable rewards from the theological standpoint.

Your kids are probably 10x better in many ways than most these days? And that alone is a blessing beyond all. They may seem a handful to you, but I would not be surprised in the least if they are far better than the average to everyone else.

As someone who is a bit of the prodigal son… try only having 1 kid and getting divorced. I have thrown enough money in the trash to probably support a family of 5 for 4 yrs and I have done so in 7yrs.

Add in if me and my ex werent maintaining 2 homes no tax benifits etc… yeah it’d be easier having a Catholic family of 10 then a secular family of 1.5

The only thing hard about following God is pushing past the scrupulous, hypocritical, and luny people that make you think it is about things it is not, pushing one toward the secular. It looks like a party over here in secular land… but parties are never free…(have you ever thrown a big old party? The $ layout, the cleanup, the guy who broke your window?)

As someone mentioned about the prodigal son story… those who enjoy the benifits of staying home take them for granted and forget the prodigals had to go without.

Well stated. Especially the part about pushing one towards the secular. I bought the secular lie for thirty years. Thirty years of living the rat race. I especially bought into the birth control lie. I realize I chose new cars, cable tv, and restaurants, rather than join God in creating more souls. I come from a very large family. The very reason I exist is my parents would have rather had me than new cars, a color tv, and dining out. Were we poor? Yes. Were we happy? Yes. The sacrifices they were willing to do to grant me the gift of life, I was unwilling to do to grant others this same gift.

The prodigal son has regrets. I know this first-hand. Would much rather be the elder son.

 

[Della]

If you don’t think raising several kids is without a whole lot of stressful suffering then, I don’t know what I can do to help you empathize with this truth. Many Catholics do realize this and to avoid the overwhelming suffering they selfishly choose birth control.

But you chose to have them. I can understand being exasperated and harried, but suffering? I find it a bit scary that you see rearing children as suffering merely because they are acting like normal kids. Now, if your children were in dire need or had cancer or had some disability I could see using the world suffering. I have two nephews with MD. Believe me they and their family have suffered. My brother and his wife would give anything to have them well and able to do all the things other kids can do. They’d be thrilled if one of their sons could act up as any other kid can do. I’m afraid you are enlarging the word suffering to include minor annoyances, which is not suffering but can be occasions of grace if we offer them up to God.

Pacing the number of children a couple has using appropriate measures, such as self-control /NFP is not selfish, but responsible–under the circumstances which the Church recognizes as valid. If you try to be more Catholic than the Church you will feel resentment against her and blame her for your lack of happiness. You started this thread wondering why being faithful is any better than being a prodigal son. This is your problem to face. I think a talk with your priest is in order here.

 

[LethalMouse]

Your wish can easily be granted - fund a large family and if you can’t be the parent, be its dedicated nanny.

I think you missed the point where I have secular left overs. I have every intent of trying a real marriage and having mini people run rampant. But given time constraints and trying to find a decent person with my life in it’s current state plus the factors of my past are not so easily done

 

[rcwitness]

Actually - life gets really, really tough when you don’t use birth control and are a parent of many children whom you are educating to grow up with the same mentality. This is when the cross gets very, very heavy.

Yes! It definitely can be. But the greatest reason for its difficulty is because we do not truly love one another and God as we should. It is better to work hard in great love than take the easier path luke warmly.

Is this merely a hypothetical complaint or a real one? You seem to be implying that the Church demands couple have as many children as possible. That’s decidedly not true. Couples are to be open to life, not push out as many kids as they can engender. We are to use good prudential judgment in the number and pacing of children according to our circumstances. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to post this simple info on the forum this week, but it seems to be theme of complaint that is disingenuous if the poster knows the truth. The Church recommends Natural Family Planning, which involves catering to a wife’s needs instead of giving the husband carte blanche to have sex whenever he wants it. Marriage is a cooperation between two thinking adults with the capacity for self-control. We are expected to use our brains and the virtue of sacrificial love instead of merely giving into our glands like animals. If couples appropriately control themselves there’s no longer any need to grumble about the results of not doing so.

I agree. Its difficult when you throw the faults of the two married couple into the mix.

In order to practice NFP, it is absolutely necessary to first focus on the love between each other and God! Approaching it as a Law is missing the whole point.

Then, we can also be tempted to see Protestant Christians who have been sterilized or use Birth Controls and have a loving relationship, as evidence that BC is a good thing.

 

[IwishIknew]

But you chose to have them. I can understand being exasperated and harried, but suffering?

I see the disconnect. We have different definitions of “suffering”. Mine is broader as in the opposite of pleasure or happiness in any given moment. Similar to "death by a thousand paper cuts (that is stressful moments, hard work, tiredness and other daily unpleasantries are far more common in my life now than when I was a single adult). I think yours is more like “Death by blows”.

 

[Della]

I see the disconnect. We have different definitions of “suffering”. Mine is broader as in the opposite of pleasure or happiness in any given moment. Similar to "death by a thousand paper cuts (that is stressful moments, hard work, tiredness and other daily unpleasantries are far more common in my life now than when I was a single adult). I think yours is more like “Death by blows”.

Suffering is intense prolonged pain: emotional, physical, mental, etc., not merely putting up with little annoyances. “Death by blows” hardly covers children making little messes and acting up, as children will do. I can’t agree that you are suffering due to having children. It’s simply not on.

 

[IwishIknew]

Suffering is intense prolonged pain: emotional, physical, mental, etc., not merely putting up with little annoyances. “Death by blows” hardly covers children making little messes and acting up, as children will do. I can’t agree that you are suffering due to having children. It’s simply not on.

Your definition of “suffering” is not wrong, but mine is not wrong either, but mine is the broader definition. That said, a more accurate word I should have used is “sacrifice”. And believe me - parenting with Christian Love, Patience and Joy many children involves tremendous sacrifices: from the strains of continuous annoyances to the strains of ensuring they are properly fed, housed, clothed and educated (spiritually, physically, mentally, morally). It is a 14 hour-a-day, 7-day a week endless list of sacrificial giving.

And this is NOT a complaint - it is chosen by us to accept this and be open to life because we trust in God’s promise to feed even His birds. Christ regularly appears to his Saints emphasizing his sacrifices - not to complain - but to let them know that out of love He chose this sacrifice willingly.

I think you ignorantly sit in your pompous proverbial arm-chair and try to slide around this truth out of pride - for the sake of pride. Either that or you suffer from utter ignorance. Either way, when you mock or downplay someone’s true pains you hit people’s buttons - so be aware of this in future discussions.

 

[IwishIknew]

Your definition of “suffering” is not wrong, but mine is not wrong either, but mine is the broader definition. That said, a more accurate word I should have used is “sacrifice”. And believe me - parenting with Christian Love, Patience and Joy many children involves tremendous sacrifices: from the strains of continuous annoyances to the strains of ensuring they are properly fed, housed, clothed and educated (spiritually, physically, mentally, morally). It is a 14 hour-a-day, 7-day a week endless list of sacrificial giving.

And this is NOT a complaint - it is chosen by us to accept this and be open to life because we trust in God’s promise to feed even His birds. Christ regularly appears to his Saints emphasizing his sacrifices - not to complain - but to let them know that out of love He chose this sacrifice willingly.

I think you ignorantly sit in your pompous proverbial arm-chair and try to slide around this truth out of pride - for the sake of pride or bullying. Either that or you suffer from utter ignorance. Either way, when you mock or downplay someone’s true pains you hit people’s buttons - so be aware of this in future discussions.