What do I do? I don't have a spiritual home anymore.

[Kathryn_Ann]

you make an appointment and sit down with your priest for spiritual counsel.

Yes, I agree with1ke:
Please see your priest.

I pray it will also help to reflect on over 2000 years of Church teaching. Our Heavenly Father established the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and in doing so, assures us that we can rest in the divine continuity of our faith, and not be as a reed in the wind, but steadfast, relying on His Church to be our Rock.

The reality of The Blessed Sacrament, Christ’s Sacrifice and triumph over death are precious to contemplate. You are a beloved child of God, and precious in His sight. Please do make an appointment for spiritual counseling with your priest, and know that you are in my prayers.

Kathryn Ann

 

[pablope]

I recently started a thread about accepting communion despite the fact that I believe with all my heart, having studied and read the Catholic teaching very carefully, including the catechism, that Papal infallibility is false.

. So what do I do? I don’t want to disrespect the Church and just ignore their authority by taking communion and pretending to be in full communion with the Pope…but I don’t know what else to do.

Please help.

But before you do, please understand that I have already had extensive discussions on Papal infallibility and I cannot accept it in good conscience, so I don’t want this post to become a debate on that…I just need to know what I should do…How can I live a life the way Jesus wanted if I truly believe Papal infallibility to be false? What do I do? Should I be attending another Church in an attempt to receive the Eucharist?

As others have said…seek spiritual guidance.

My take…why throw out the entirety of Catholicism for this one issue?

Pray and continue seeking guidance in humility…I would say, in good conscience, to not partake of communion (seek priestly advice for this)…but continue going to mass, confession…praying. Let the grace of God work.

 

[jinc1019]

In any case, go to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass every weekend when you can. People do remain in the pew when others go up to receive Holy Communion. That is no big deal.

To me, personally Papal infallibility can mean a number of things. And I did spot references to ex cathedra in posts. So I am wondering what do you consider Papal infallibility to be? Are you looking at current doctrines or are you concerned about the future? Are you aware as to how doctrines are formulated? If you are concerned about the “power” of infallibility, then you may consider what that power covers and when it can be used.

I am not going to debate your understanding of Papal infallibility, I am suggesting that you figure out what your gut feelings are. I am not asking you to share your thoughts. Those are private.

I appreciate the words of encouragement and kindness. I mentioned ex-cathedra because someone else brought it up and I was responding to it.

Just to be clear, I specifically do not believe that a promise was ever made by Jesus to infallibly protect papal teachings after the apostles. I do believe that the Holy Spirit may guide the Church, but I do not support the finding that the Holy Spirit MUST guide the Pope in all matters of faith and morals, even when he speaks from the seat of St. Peter. I don’t see anything that would lead me to reasonably believe that promise was ever made. In Mathew 16, Peter is promised infallibility and in Mathew 18, the other apostles are also promised a conditioned form of infallibility…But those two things cannot be transmitted through apostolic succession because if they had been, then it would be impossible for all of those subsequent churches to disagree on anything, which they do.

 

[jinc1019]

As others have said…seek spiritual guidance.

My take…why throw out the entirety of Catholicism for this one issue?

Pray and continue seeking guidance in humility…I would say, in good conscience, to not partake of communion (seek priestly advice for this)…but continue going to mass, confession…praying. Let the grace of God work.

This is a really important point…I am not actually throwing out all of Catholicism for this one point, although it is a very important one. I feel as though the Catholic Church is throwing me out. After all, according to Catholic doctrine, I am not allowed to take the Eucharist, and as some have mentioned here, I may even be considered a heretic.

 

[jinc1019]

I don’t read ‘obstinate’ as meaning ‘insincere’ or ‘arising merely through negligent failure to look for the truth.’

When we find it difficult to accept some necessary teaching of the Church we are not to merely say ‘I doubt and cannot in good conscience accept’, we are to say ‘I believe, help my unbelief’.

Now St Augustine was no slouch as a student, thinker or reasoner. But He understood that there are some teachings - the Trinity, the Incarnation and the like - that are simply beyond our capacity to really wrap our heads around. And so he said we believe and then seek understanding rather than the other way around.

This is where Jesus’ admonition to become like little children comes in. Children accept all sorts of things without seeking the why’s and wherefores, simply because they trust the person who tells them. People may deceive or prey on the trust of a child, but then the fault is with them, not the child.

I can accept this…and for a long time I felt this way. But after having examined the issue very carefully, read numerous opinions from the Church and from devout Catholics on it, I cannot be convinced (at least not thus far). Therefore, I cannot in good conscience pretend as though I can accept this doctrine on faith alone when I truly do have no faith in it at all; that would obviously be dishonest and disrespectful to the Church I love and respect very deeply.

 

[jinc1019]

I wouldn’t say these teaching have been determined “based on,” rather they are taught as the infallible teaching of the church.

If it’s contraception you are having trouble with there’s still no need to panic.

Find out what you real concerns are and see if they can be addressed before you decide that you are a heretic. I.e. don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Lots of people - me included - have/or had trouble with the Church’s teaching on sexuality. Just because the Church’s is challenging doesn’t make it wrong. I found that when I let go of my own stubbornness “that which was bitter became sweet” to quote St. Francis.

Sometimes you have to work through things and it can take time. In the end though you will find that God is patient.

I appreciate your guidance and toughts, as always, but contraception isn’t really the issue…The issue is papal infallibility. I don’t accept contraception as infallible in large part because I don’t accept papal infallibility, along with other reasons.

 

[jinc1019]

Hi jinc,

I know you are probably asked this a lot but how do you know the bible is correct? I am curious because I don’t see how anyone one could put faith in the teachings in the bible unless they know they are correct. Otherwise it is just eveyman’s opinion for themselves.

You can PM is you want or if you have another thread point me to where you explain your thoughts because I would truely like to know and don’t want to hijack this thread.

Thanks.

I believe the Bible is correct because I believe it is the sacred tradition passed down directlty from the apostles themselves, who I believe to be infallible…I believe there are some errors in the Bible because later on, a fallible Church was forced to compile the oral and written traditions that had been handed down to them, but I believe it really is a very accurate depiction of what occurred. I also believe God played a hand in ensuring that this oral and written tradition was passed down…Although, I would say that I do think the Bible does contain some error in it, especially since it has been translated dozens of times over and certain words have been lost in translation or “found” in translation.

 

[TimothyH]

I really cannot, according to the Church, be a truly practicing Catholic…including doing the very things Jesus clearly outlines in the gospels as proper ways to live, such as taking the Eucharist, confirmation, etc.

I have been in the Catholic Church my entire life, and have come back to the Church after years of being away, but now that I have studied the issues very carefully, and can’t accept this one Catholic teaching, I am left without a spiritual home.

The way Jesus wants you to live is to live a life of deep love for your fellow human beings. You can do that any time, any place.

As to papal infallibility… Forget about your concience, or the catechism, or your studies and Choose to believe.

Then the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe, help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:24)

Make a conscious decision to believe. Make the choice to believe. Jesus will help you, but only if you choose first.

-Tim-

 

[Kay_Cee]

I recently started a thread about accepting communion despite the fact that I believe with all my heart, having studied and read the Catholic teaching very carefully, including the catechism, that Papal infallibility is false.

Since tone of voice doesn’t come across merely from the printed word, let me first point out that my question is meant with the utmost respect and not at all intended to be rude in any way, shape, or form. I actually am curious.

Here’s the question: Do you believe yourself to be infallible when you believe with all your heart that Papal infallibility is false?

If the answer is yes, then you must believe in infallibilty of some sort but in yourself instead of a person designated by God to oversee His Church.

If the answer is no, then you must admit you could be wrong.

Just curious.

 

[jinc1019]

Since tone of voice doesn’t come across merely from the printed word, let me first point out that my question is meant with the utmost respect and not at all intended to be rude in any way, shape, or form. I actually am curious.

Here’s the question: Do you believe yourself to be infallible when you believe with all your heart that Papal infallibility is false?

If the answer is yes, then you must believe in infallibilty of some sort but in yourself instead of a person designated by God to oversee His Church.

If the answer is no, then you must admit you could be wrong.

Just curious.

Of course I believe it is possible that the promise made to Peter by Jesus has been passed down through apostolic succession to Pope Benedict. But, I don’t believe that to be true, and I believe there is good evidence to suggest that papal infallibility is actually theologically impossible given that so many Eastern Rite churches believe it to be false, and given that those same churches were founded by apostles who were also promised infallibility by Jesus in Mathew 18. Based on Catholic teaching on apostolic succession, those churches should also have infallibility…and their infallibility would prevent them from ever disagreeing with Rome or with Rome disagreeing with them on doctrinal matters deemed to be infallible, and yet, they do.

This means that there are only two possible conclusions: Either Jesus never did promise infallibility to the other apostles (which I believe to be completely false given the clear language in Mathew 18, although this is what the Church teaches) or infallibility is not passed down through apostolic succession as taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[jinc1019]

The way Jesus wants you to live is to live a life of deep love for your fellow human beings. You can do that any time, any place.

As to papal infallibility… Forget about your concience, or the catechism, or your studies and Choose to believe.

Then the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe, help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:24)

Make a conscious decision to believe. Make the choice to believe. Jesus will help you, but only if you choose first.

-Tim-

I assure you I have tried, but I cannot in good faith claim belief where no such belief exists. I do appreciate your kind words and advice though.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Of course I believe it is possible that the promise made to Peter by Jesus has been passed down through apostolic succession to Pope Benedict. But, I don’t believe that to be true, and I believe there is good evidence to suggest that papal infallibility is actually theologically impossible given that so many Eastern Rite churches believe it to be false, and given that those same churches were founded by apostles who were also promised infallibility by Jesus in Mathew 18. Based on Catholic teaching on apostolic succession, those churches should also have infallibility…and their infallibility would prevent them from ever disagreeing with Rome or with Rome disagreeing with them on doctrinal matters deemed to be infallible, and yet, they do.

This means that there are only two possible conclusions: Either Jesus never did promise infallibility to the other apostles (which I believe to be completely false given the clear language in Mathew 18, although this is what the Church teaches) or infallibility is not passed down through apostolic succession as taught by the Catholic Church.

Mine was a yes/no question. Please answer either yes or no.

 

[jinc1019]

Mine was a yes/no question. Please answer either yes or no.

Lol, I think I was pretty clear in my response. Of course it is possible I am wrong. I am not infallible and have NEVER claimed to be so. Just because I am not infallible, doesn’t mean I am automatically wrong here, however, as you seem to imply.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Unrepentant heresy until death equals Hell.

People in Hell don’t believe in papal ibnfallability.

 

[jinc1019]

Not necessarily. My city has a parish of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church and another of the Orthodox Church in America. To the best of my knowledge, both mostly use English and largely serve native anglophones.

Papal infallibility has been an enormous stumbling block for me as well. I know what the OP is going through.

I concur with the suggestion that you see a priest or two–the clergy are not able in every case to carry on discussions of such calibre. Not only may priests not always believe what their clerical vestments suggest, but they may also just not be very good at engaging effectively with objections to the faith they profess (doing so isn’t everyone’s gift).

Thank you very much for your thoughts…especially about preists. My concern is that if I speak to a priest, or two, and they give me their particular thoughts on the matter, those thoughts may not actually be actual Church doctrine. I don’t want to speak to them, have them tell me it’s fine to accept communion, and then find out 10 years from now I should never have done that. I think that is a reasonable concern. This is why I am hoping someone will provide a specific declaration from the Church on this matter. Thus far, I have received very little of this.

 

[jinc1019]

Unrepentant heresy until death equals Hell.

People in Hell don’t believe in papal ibnfallability.

I am sure there are many people in hell who do believe in papal infallibility…Beyond that, I won’t respond to your rather unnecessary comment.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Lol, I think I was pretty clear in my response. Of course it is possible I am wrong. I am not infallible and have NEVER claimed to be so. Just because I am not infallible, doesn’t mean I am automatically wrong here, however, as you seem to imply.

I was not implying anything, since I made no previous statements about the issue.

I take it then that your answer is no?

 

[jinc1019]

I was not implying anything, since I made no previous statements about the issue.

I take it then that your answer is no?

Obviously. I do not believe I am infallible. I can’t be any more clear than that.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Obviously. I do not believe I am infallible. I can’t be any more clear than that.

So then you could be wrong? (Just verifying )

 

[jinc1019]

So then you could be wrong? (Just verifying )

As I spelled out very, very clearly…Yes. I could be wrong. But of course, so could you, since you too are infallible.