What do Jews think about Jesus?

[Petergee]

Adam was the first Jew created, Eve shortly thereafter. Do you mean to say that the Creator is a Jewish man? Or do you wish to abandon their argument, please.

Since I am not sure how to make you aware that I pray for you on this forum’s venue, I will act for a moment as your friend and advocate even though you have not explicitly asked.

Eve was created from one of the ribs of Adam. Therefore they are essentially one flesh. All their progeny are of its flesh also. The only statement you can make in defense of your position is that unless God is a Jewish man, there is and can only be one Jewish flesh. Thus the word ‘Jews’ is derived from a logical fallacy.

Where on earth did you get the idea that Adam and Eve were Jews? Certainly not from the Bible, from the Church, from the writings of post-Christian Jews or from anything that I have said.

Surely you can see the logical fallacy in your claim: If Adam and Eve were Jews, then every man in the world would be a Jew, so there could be no such thing as anti-semitism.

Jews (as Jews, Christians, Moslems and those of other religions all agree) are the descendants of Jacob (Israel), grandson of Abraham and father of the Patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel. Not even all the descendants of Abraham are Jews. e.g. the descendants of Ishmael (Isaac’s half-brother) and of Esau (Jacob’s brother) are Gentiles.

Thanks for your prayers, I need all I can get, though I’m not sure why you think I specifically am in need of your prayers.

And yes, God is a Jewish man, named Jesus.

 

[Petergee]

Please post those verses from Torah. Thank you.

Too many to put in one post, but the first one occurs at the very beginning of Genesis even as Adam and Eve are being expelled from Eden, when God promises that a descendant of Eve will one day crush the serpent (the Devil) and by implication give men the opportunity to reverse the terrible consequences of the Fall.

 

[meltzerboy]

Too many to put in one post, but the first one occurs at the very beginning of Genesis even as Adam and Eve are being expelled from Eden, when God promises that a descendant of Eve will one day crush the serpent (the Devil) and by implication give men the opportunity to reverse the terrible consequences of the Fall.

Please refer to “The Seed of a Woman: A Kernel of Deception” on the Internet for a Jewish, or Noahide, interpretation of its meaning as contrary to the Christian interpretation of a Messianic prophecy. The argument is based on the plural meaning of the Hebrew word “seed” when there is no specific personal reference, thus referring in Genesis 3 to humanity rather than the Messiah; the use of the term in other biblical passages from Genesis, Leviticus, Samuel, Isaiah, and Exodus; the mistranslation in the KJV of the pronoun “you” as singular; and other inconsistencies. In biblical scholarship, there is always more than one viewpoint, and often more than two.

 

[Michael19682]

HI Peter,

Where on earth did you get the idea that Adam and Eve were Jews? Certainly not from the Bible, from the Church, from the writings of post-Christian Jews or from anything that I have said.

I must have relied upon my memory and been deceived by a faulty or satanic translation of the Bible. Peter, I remember with clarity that I once read a ‘copy’ of the Bible in which Adam was referred to as the son of god. I don’t read Matthew all that much but that is where the incorrect information must have been Read because I remember the ‘14’ generations correspondence very well and when I returned to the online version of the New American Bible expecting to cite a verse for you I was shocked to read in the genealogy of Jesus that Adam is nowhere mentioned. However, in trying to comprehend the fault of my memory, which is at times photographic, I realize now that my memory’s contents did in fact derive from a deception. But I wonder why someone or some devil would have done such a thing to me. Most people in the world today are decent and not evil. Thus, even though the gospel does not say Adam is in the genealogy of Jesus; because of the deception that I was subjected to, I must ask “Why not?” If the person or persons who gave me a falsely written Bible are good people, then my question is good and does not belong to me alone as a question. I know of no question that is evil.

Surely you can see the logical fallacy in your claim: If Adam and Eve were Jews, then every man in the world would be a Jew, so there could be no such thing as anti-semitism

.

If Adam and Eve were Jews, yes every man in the world could possibly be a Jew. We would have also inherited their sin, as original sin. Therefore “Jew” would be defined as either obedience to the law of God, or else its opposite, defiance of it. Antisemitism therefore could be either good or bad, depending on how you define Jew - as obedience or as defiance. Clearly there are defiant and obedient Jews in the world. It seems however, that many who are legally Jewish have managed to refer to as antisemitic any action in any context that tries to stop any Jew from getting what he wants.

Furthermore, your statement about the supposed fallacy in my claim is dependent again on how Jews would define antisemitism if we were all Jews. If Semitic and Jew are synonymous, then the fallacy you claim I make is based on whether or not Jews would in such a circumstance of being the only race of people on earth, define antisemitism at all. Would not telling a lie therefore be antisemitic? So, still, among Jews there must be antisemitism.

ews (as Jews, Christians, Moslems and those of other religions all agree) are the descendants of Jacob (Israel), grandson of Abraham and father of the Patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel. Not even all the descendants of Abraham are Jews. e.g. the descendants of Ishmael (Isaac’s half-brother) and of Esau (Jacob’s brother) are Gentiles.

Moot, since we do not know how to truly define a Jew until we have an answer as to how Adam is not a Jew, or as to how any disobedient Jew remains a Jew.

Thanks for your prayers, I need all I can get, though I’m not sure why you think I specifically am in need of your prayers.

Peter, my friend and fellow Catholic, I will continue to pray for you. I suspected you needed prayers, as we all do, for you, like me, indulge in these arguments about things that people should probably not think too much about. The important thing is that we live lives as peaceful as possible and our share of joy when we can. You say, why I “think” you need my prayers. Let us then if we may consider this dialogue a form of prayer for each other until we have a clearer answer to the truth. I again suspect that the problems we have and that result in our need for the prayers of each other are all for the same reason; a need to discern the truth in all matters that we consider important. Some people simply want to understand all the answers. If God is truth he should give us such understanding in time.

And yes, God is a Jewish man, named Jesus.

I was referring to God the Father of Jesus. The one who called from the Heavens while Jesus was being baptized.

 

[Petergee]

Please refer to “The Seed of a Woman: A Kernel of Deception” on the Internet for a Jewish, or Noahide, interpretation of its meaning as contrary to the Christian interpretation of a Messianic prophecy. The argument is based on the plural meaning of the Hebrew word “seed” when there is no specific personal reference, thus referring in Genesis 3 to humanity rather than the Messiah; the use of the term in other biblical passages from Genesis, Leviticus, Samuel, Isaiah, and Exodus; the mistranslation in the KJV of the pronoun “you” as singular; and other inconsistencies. In biblical scholarship, there is always more than one viewpoint, and often more than two.

Yes, we all know that modern Jews have developed ingenious (re-) interpretations in an attempt to explain away the hundreds of OT prophecies which Jesus fulfilled. That’s irrelevant to the question which was asked, which was “what are the OT verses which prophesy about Jesus?”.

 

[Petergee]

HI Peter,

I must have relied upon my memory and been deceived by a faulty or satanic translation of the Bible. Peter, I remember with clarity that I once read a ‘copy’ of the Bible in which Adam was referred to as the son of god. I don’t read Matthew all that much but that is where the incorrect information must have been Read because I remember the ‘14’ generations correspondence very well and when I returned to the online version of the New American Bible expecting to cite a verse for you I was shocked to read in the genealogy of Jesus that Adam is nowhere mentioned. However, in trying to comprehend the fault of my memory, which is at times photographic, I realize now that my memory’s contents did in fact derive from a deception. But I wonder why someone or some devil would have done such a thing to me. Most people in the world today are decent and not evil. Thus, even though the gospel does not say Adam is in the genealogy of Jesus; because of the deception that I was subjected to, I must ask “Why not?” If the person or persons who gave me a falsely written Bible are good people, then my question is good and does not belong to me alone as a question. I know of no question that is evil.

The genealogy given by St Luke traces Jesus’ descent back to Adam. That does not mean that Adam was a Jew.

No doubt every Welshman is descended from Adam. Do you think that means Adam was Welsh, and the whole human race is Welsh? Of course not.

It’s not rocket science. The ancestors of Abraham were Gentiles (non-Jews). The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Jews. I don’t see why you’re having trouble grasping this fact.

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If Adam and Eve were Jews, yes every man in the world could possibly be a Jew. We would have also inherited their sin, as original sin. Therefore “Jew” would be defined as either obedience to the law of God, or else its opposite, defiance of it. Antisemitism therefore could be either good or bad, depending on how you define Jew - as obedience or as defiance. Clearly there are defiant and obedient Jews in the world. It seems however, that many who are legally Jewish have managed to refer to as antisemitic any action in any context that tries to stop any Jew from getting what he wants.

Furthermore, your statement about the supposed fallacy in my claim is dependent again on how Jews would define antisemitism if we were all Jews. If Semitic and Jew are synonymous, then the fallacy you claim I make is based on whether or not Jews would in such a circumstance of being the only race of people on earth, define antisemitism at all. Would not telling a lie therefore be antisemitic?

Sorry, it’s not worth my time to indulge in specualtion about what things might be like in some possible alternative universe where so many what ifs? might have happened. Let’s just stick to the reality and the facts if you want a response from me, OK?

I was referring to God the Father of Jesus. The one who called from the Heavens while Jesus was being baptized.

You referred to “the Creator”. God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) created Adam and Eve and everyone and everything else.

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes, we all know that modern Jews have developed ingenious (re-) interpretations in an attempt to explain away the hundreds of OT prophecies which Jesus fulfilled. That’s irrelevant to the question which was asked, which was “what are the OT verses which prophesy about Jesus?”.

However, that’s exactly what many Jewish scholars believe about the Christian interpretations: that many of them are ingenious reinterpretations of what is actually said in the Hebrew Bible in an attempt to cast them in the light of Messianic prophecy. IOW, by delving into the Hebrew Bible verses, Christian scholars have transformed them into prophecies about Jesus, whereas their original intent and context, on the contrary, refer to other events. I have read many of these debates and find them fascinating from both perspectives.

 

[Petergee]

However, that’s exactly what many Jewish scholars believe about the Christian interpretations: that many of them are ingenious reinterpretations of what is actually said in the Hebrew Bible in an attempt to cast them in the light of Messianic prophecy. IOW, by delving into the Hebrew Bible verses, Christian scholars have transformed them into prophecies about Jesus, whereas their original intent and context, on the contrary, refer to other events. I have read many of these debates and find them fascinating from both perspectives.

I don’t think any Christian denies that in most cases “their original intent and context refer to other events”. In fact Catholic biblical scholarship proceeds on the principle that one must always **start from **the most immediately apparent and literal meaning. However there are so many hundreds of these prophecies, that it is stretching belief to imagine that every single one is a pure coincidence. It’s true most of them are only obvious with hindsight of what Jesus actually did, but few of them require much “reinterpretation” to see that they refer to Jesus.

 

[Michael19682]

Petergee:

The genealogy given by St Luke traces Jesus’ descent back to Adam

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It is interesting that the Lucan source does think it relevant to tell of the fact that Jesus descended from the flesh of Adam, while Matthew does not note that, instead beginning the genealogy with Abraham. Lucan scholars say Luke was not a Jew. Matthew’s gospel was clearly written with a eye towards evangelizing the Jews - even today, the Jews for Jesus focus on that version of the gospel.

That does not mean that Adam was a Jew.

Nor is the fact precluded.

No doubt every Welshman is descended from Adam. Do you think that means Adam was Welsh, and the whole human race is Welsh? Of course not.

Interesting! But if Jesus is a Jew, how could he who is God descend from that which is not God - for do you not read in the Lucan gospel that Adam was just that, “the son of God.” God’s nature does not change, flesh or otherwise. If Jesus is a Jew, so should Adam have been. Now surely you yourself have admitted that both God the Father and his son are Jewish. Please if you respond do not rely on tricky word play regarding the Trinity as you did when I simply pointed out that God the Father called out from the Heavens when the Lord was baptized. The Trinity is the central mystery of our faith and cannot be approached with words unless the speaker is a saint.

It’s not rocket science. The ancestors of Abraham were Gentiles (non-Jews). The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Jews. I don’t see why you’re having trouble grasping this fact.

I don’t grasp it because I see no evidence for it. To not eat from the tree at the center of the garden was the first law given to men and Mosaic law derives from the same God who gave it Adam.

Sorry, it’s not worth my time to indulge in specualtion about what things might be like in some possible alternative universe where so many what ifs? might have happened. Let’s just stick to the reality and the facts if you want a response from me, OK?

Ok.

You referred to “the Creator”. God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) created Adam and Eve and everyone and everything else

Indeed.

.

 

[Kaninchen]

Christians always seem to know what we Jews think about Jesus so much better than we do . . . . well on threads on message boards, at least.

 

[Michael19682]

However, that’s exactly what many Jewish scholars believe about the Christian interpretations: that many of them are ingenious reinterpretations of what is actually said in the Hebrew Bible in an attempt to cast them in the light of Messianic prophecy. IOW, by delving into the Hebrew Bible verses, Christian scholars have transformed them into prophecies about Jesus, whereas their original intent and context, on the contrary, refer to other events. I have read many of these debates and find them fascinating from both perspectives.

Not so, exactly. The Christian scholars refer to them as Messianic prophesies. It just so turned out that Jesus is who Christians believe to be Messiah. It was not disputed that a Messiah would come. You must decide whether there exist any prophesies attesting to it.

 

[Petergee]

.
Nor is the fact precluded…I don’t grasp it because I see no evidence for it. To not eat from the tree at the center of the garden was the first law given to men and Mosaic law derives from the same God who gave it Adam.

Yes it is precluded I’m afraid.

There were no Jews in those days. Just because God gives someone a command doesn’t mean that that man is a Jew.

“Jew” originally meant only someone from the tribe of Judah. Then after the fall of the Northern Kingdom when the remaining part of Israel was dominated by that tribe, the word was extended to mean all Israelites, that is descendants of Israel, also called Jacob.

Interesting! But if Jesus is a Jew, how could he who is God descend from that which is not God.

His Mother was not God and she is His true mother. It’s called the Incarnation. God became fully Man but He remained fully God.

• for do you not read in the Lucan gospel that Adam was just that, “the son of God.”

That’s one interpretation of that verse, but obviously it does not mean that Adam is God! in the same sense that Jesus is! (The other interpretation is that St Luke is saying that Jesus is the son of God.)

If Jesus is a Jew, so should Adam have been.

WHY???

Now surely you yourself have admitted that both God the Father and his son are Jewish.

God the Son is a Jew. God the Father is not.

Please if you respond do not rely on tricky word play regarding the Trinity as you did when I simply pointed out that God the Father called out from the Heavens when the Lord was baptized. The Trinity is the central mystery of our faith and cannot be approached with words unless the speaker is a saint.

Sorry but that’s nonsense! The Mysteries of the faith are not no-go areas which we are forbidden to talk about! They are things which we should and must think, pray and talk about often. It’s true we can never fully explain them with words but I was not attempting to do that. The fact that all things were made through God the Son is not “tricky word play” unless you are accusing St John and the Fathers of Nicea I of “tricky word play”.

 

[Petergee]

Christians always seem to know what we Jews think about Jesus so much better than we do . . . . well on threads on message boards, at least.

So perhaps you would be kind enough to tell us, since Michael has refrained from answering my querying of it, whether there is any truth in his claim that “The Jews say that anti -Semitism derives from the mass conversion of gentiles to Christianity.” ?

 

[Michael19682]

Yes it is precluded I’m afraid.

An assertion, like most of your response.

There were no Jews in those days.

27 Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.
28 One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh.
29 Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.

“The letter” includes any law you may be citing that defines a Jew according to strict legalism. The verse implies that it is God who defines a Jew. If Adam was “in the spirit”, then he is a Jew.

Just because God gives someone a command doesn’t mean that that man is a Jew.

When you say “just because”, surely you are not imputing triviality upon the Law?

“Jew” originally meant only someone from the tribe of Judah. Then after the fall of the Northern Kingdom when the remaining part of Israel was dominated by that tribe, the word was extended to mean all Israelites, that is descendants of Israel, also called Jacob.

The gospels speak of things remaining ‘hidden’, such as the true birth place of Jesus. Perhaps the true label called “Jew” was also hidden. As for what it “means”, that is an existential matter.

His Mother was not God and she is His true mother. It’s called the Incarnation. God became fully Man but He remained fully God.

Amen.

That’s one interpretation of that verse, but obviously it does not mean that Adam is God! in the same sense that Jesus is! (The other interpretation is that St Luke is saying that Jesus is the son of God.)

By saying “one interpretation” do you conclude that it is possible Adam was a Jew?

God the Son is a Jew. God the Father is not.

All God the Father really ever told men on this topic is that “I AM who am”. Strangely, one could derive from this Catholic verse that we “are not”. Nevertheless, God does not preclude the possibility that he is a Jew.

Sorry but that’s nonsense! The Mysteries of the faith are not no-go areas which we are forbidden to talk about! They are things which we should and must think, pray and talk about often. It’s true we can never fully explain them with words but I was not attempting to do that. The fact that all things were made through God the Son is not “tricky word play” unless you are accusing St John and the Fathers of Nicea I of “tricky word play”

By “approached” I meant that words have never aided ME in understanding it. In the sense that Newton and Leibniz, the independent discoverers of calculus would have said that as “X approaches infinity”. Perhaps I should have said cannot be “reached” with words; yet that cannot be proven, since God grants his Grace to those whom he will. We don’t know why, except because he so loved man and because he wants us to have complete joy.

 

[Michael19682]

.
The Trinity is the central mystery of our faith and** cannot be approached with words **unless the speaker is a saint.

For anyone following this thread, I would ask you permit me to retract those words in bold. At the time I wrote them I was not thinking of this prayer:

Glory be to the Father,
Who by His almighty power and love created me,
making me in the image and likeness of God.

Glory be to the Son,
Who by His Precious Blood delivered me from hell,
and opened for me the gates of heaven.

Glory be to the Holy Spirit,
Who has sanctified me in the sacrament of Baptism,
and continues to sanctify me
by the graces I receive daily from His bounty.

Glory be to the Three adorable Persons of the Holy Trinity,
now and forever.

Amen.

 

[rain_bow]

Too many to put in one post,

Then post some clear references please( don’t need to post all of them if they are too many!!). not any puzzle. BTW, where is the Holy trinity in OT?This is the new invention of new testament though in New testament I think Holy spirit is never mentioned as God.Only sometimes Jesus said that I and father, we are the same, isn’t it? But I don’t think that, it will work for holy spirit.correct me please if I am wrong.

but the first one occurs at the very beginning of Genesis even as Adam and Eve are being expelled from Eden, when God promises that a descendant of Eve will one day crush the serpent (the Devil) and by implication give men the opportunity to reverse the terrible consequences of the Fall.

A descendant? How are you even sure that it is Jesus Christ? Does OT say so?Never found any word “Jesus” in OT.But you are repeatedly claiming that Jesus clearly mentioned in OT. However you claimed that The Jewish messiah is Jesus Christ,but Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, interesting You can not prove that you are right and Jews are wrong, can you?..Provide some evidence please ( if you can or if you want!), do not argue only for the sake of argument. Thanks.

 

[raaucoin]

Theres plenty of writings about Jesus in the Torah, they just don’t mention him by name

 

[Michael19682]

rain_bow:

BTW, where is the Holy trinity in OT?

Rainbow,

The Holy Trinity may be seen and heard as present in the OT as follows: as Father and Son in all that was created and as the holy Spirit speaking perfectly through imperfect human prophets, who gave his words imperfectly, but always in the spirit of God.

You can not prove that you are right and Jews are wrong, can you?

It was Jesus who said:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them,
42 saying, “What is your opinion about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They replied, “David’s.”
43 He said to them, “How, then, does David, inspired by the Spirit, call him ‘lord,’ saying:
44 ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet”’?
45 If David calls him ‘lord,’ how can he be his son?”
46 No one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

If one one (dared) asked him any more questions (though pilate did ask him a question that Jesus doesn’t seem to answer: Luke 23:3), this to me is strong evidence that they recognize in their hearts and minds that Jesus’ insight into the scriptures could only be borne of their reference to Him. (In fact, though Jesus didn’t directly answer Pilate; it appears from the inscription on the cross that Pilate also believed him).