What do Lutherans believe?

[James1982]

Love it. btw, my kids are allowed to date Catholics, but not Baptists :dts: (kidding)

Oh, and the Peace of the Lord be with you.

Jon

And also with you!

I’ve only been WELS for about 5 years now, so am a relative newcomer to it… Coming into it, the differences between the various Lutheran communions seemed to me to be fairly trivial, so I often am amused when folks at church rail against for example LCMS, which is pretty much the same but for a few stylistic differences. ELCA feels more like my old church, the UCC. I grew up with and was confirmed by a female minister, so conceptually it doesn’t scandalize me as much as it does others… That being said, I’m not sure I would go back, knowing what I know now about scriptures.

gcnuss:

From our Lutheran perspective, a sin that is forgiven erases the slate. There is no further need for any action to redress the effects of the sin. I can give a personal example: many years ago, shortly after my wife and I married, we had an old friend as a houseguest. For dinner one night, we pulled out all the stops – all the fine china, silver, and glassware that we had received as wedding gifts. After dinner, our friend, being a good guest, took it upon himself to help with cleaning up. In the process, he broke two of our fine crystal wineglasses, which in those days were worth $30-$40 apiece. He expressed his remorse and offered to pay for them (having absolutely no idea what they were worth). We simply said, “don’t worry about it. We’ll take care of it.”

I think your explanation of it gets right to the heart of the matter. There are analogues between the concept of purgatory and Lutheran cleansing doctrine. The major difference to me seems to be in the timing, and the level of detail that some Catholics attach to the concept of purgatory. On a fundamental level, I think both sides would agree that at some point, before or shortly after death, there is a process by which one’s sins are washed away in the eyes of God… A necessary process, since nothing impure can enter Heaven.

 

[Dempsey1919]

What are the main things preventing the Lutherans from returning into full communion with the Bishop of Rome? Please explain how Lutheran doctrine contradicts or is different from Catholic doctrine. Are they very real differences, or are they simply misunderstandings?

It seems that both Lutherans and Catholics agree on the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. Both Lutherans and Catholics worship and adore the one true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We also believe in the necessity of Baptism for the remission of sins. We accept the Holy Scriptures as divinely inspired Revelation. Your founder Luther believed in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist and he also had a strong devotion to Mary, the Mother of God. And to my knowledge he also condemned the use contraception.

There are more things which unite us, than there are things which divide us. We must work together with the Holy Spirit to heal this terrible division in the Mystical Body of Christ. I pray that the Lutherans may one day be fully reunited with the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome.

 

[JonNC]

What are the main things preventing the Lutherans from returning into full communion with the Bishop of Rome? Please explain how Lutheran doctrine contradicts or is different from Catholic doctrine. Are they very real differences, or are they simply misunderstandings?

It seems that both Lutherans and Catholics agree on the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. Both Lutherans and Catholics worship and adore the one true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We also believe in the necessity of Baptism for the remission of sins. We accept the Holy Scriptures as divinely inspired Revelation. Your founder Luther believed in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist and he also had a strong devotion to Mary, the Mother of God. And to my knowledge he also condemned the use contraception.

There are more things which unite us, than there are things which divide us. We must work together with the Holy Spirit to heal this terrible division in the Mystical Body of Christ. I pray that the Lutherans may one day be fully reunited with the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome.

I personally fervently share you wish that our communions be reunited.

Jon

 

[manualman]

In twenty-five words or less, I don’t know. If I use more than twenty-five, I still don’t know.

I’ll try to give you my understanding of purgatory (with apologies to our Catholic brothers and sisters if I get it wrong). As I understand it, purgatory is needed because even forgiven sin leaves a stain on the soul of the forgiven sinner. As nothing imperfect can enter into heaven, there needs to be a way for that stain to be removed.

The example often given in these discussions is that if a child hits his baseball through a neighbor’s window, the neighbor may forgive the child but the replacement window has to be paid for and the child, or someone on his behalf, must make that payment. The replacement of the broken window is an obligation that must be fulfilled before the situation returns to normal.

I think you misunderstand the catholic explanation of Purgatory. Sin is sin precisely because it DAMAGES the human soul. It damages our ability to give and receive love. Christ’s sacrifice is absolutely sufficient for forgiveness for all of our sins. But God doesn’t simply have a bunch of forgiven sinners with Him in heaven. He has completed healed/sanctified saints! If you are like me, we’re still broken in a lot of ways. I have a lot of selfishness left inside me that needs scrubbing out. God offers Grace for that, but doesn’t just do it instantly. He makes us CHOOSE Him not just once, but continuously. Each of those choices can either bring us healing and closer to God or damage us further. I’ll tell you this though: if Osama flies a plane into my building right now, I still need a bunch of work done on my soul before I can enter heaven. If I enter “as-is” it instantly won’t be heaven anymore. I’ll ruin the place.

I suspect you guys believe as we do that heaven is a place where the pain of sin will no longer afflict humanity. Since you and I still obviously still inflict the pain of sin on each other from time to time, there CLEARLY needs to be a difference in us before God let’s us in. That’s purgatory. It’s not punishment or even restitution for sin, but a finishing school where God in cooperation with our free will (not overpowering of it) completes our sanctification. When we enter heaven, we won’t be sinners covered with righteousness, but truly healed, forgiven and SANCTIFIED human beings as we were originally intended to be!
That deserves an Alleluia!

It’s a hard subject to convey and if you like you can dig up a lot of strange sounding catholic sources that sound different than what I just said. The reason for that is because God uses strange circumstances to bring us to the point where we are healed of our sinful inclinations. Some of those ways may even sound like ‘earning forgiveness.’ But they aren’t. They are learning/teaching moments that God uses to actually CHANGE the factor in our souls that caused/allowed us to commit the sin in the first place. And sometimes a certain amount of restitution IS needed in order for a sinner to see the hurt he caused and be healed of the inclanation to do so again in the future.

If a flippant and careless fool broke your heirloom plates while attempting a juggling demonstration, he may indeed need to come face to face with the pain he caused for HIS OWN sake, not for you to forgive him for it. See the difference? If he doesn’t, he can’t yet enter heaven. He too will wreck the place.

 

[JonNC]

I think you misunderstand the catholic explanation of Purgatory. Sin is sin precisely because it DAMAGES the human soul. It damages our ability to give and receive love. Christ’s sacrifice is absolutely sufficient for forgiveness for all of our sins. But God doesn’t simply have a bunch of forgiven sinners with Him in heaven. He has completed healed/sanctified saints! If you are like me, we’re still broken in a lot of ways. I have a lot of selfishness left inside me that needs scrubbing out. God offers Grace for that, but doesn’t just do it instantly. He makes us CHOOSE Him not just once, but continuously. Each of those choices can either bring us healing and closer to God or damage us further. I’ll tell you this though: if Osama flies a plane into my building right now, I still need a bunch of work done on my soul before I can enter heaven. If I enter “as-is” it instantly won’t be heaven anymore. I’ll ruin the place.

I suspect you guys believe as we do that heaven is a place where the pain of sin will no longer afflict humanity. Since you and I still obviously still inflict the pain of sin on each other from time to time, there CLEARLY needs to be a difference in us before God let’s us in. That’s purgatory. It’s not punishment or even restitution for sin, but a finishing school where God in cooperation with our free will (not overpowering of it) completes our sanctification. When we enter heaven, we won’t be sinners covered with righteousness, but truly healed, forgiven and SANCTIFIED human beings as we were originally intended to be!
That deserves an Alleluia!

My concern isn’t with any of this. My concern is with penance and indulgences. If you were to tell me that because of Christ, and not because of anything I did, including good works and meditative prayers, etc., I could understand it and accept it. Can you reconcile this for me?

Jon

 

[manualman]

I think I can. Catholic theology of salvation is and has always been that humanity is fallen to the point where we are unable of our own will and power to be “good enough” to merit heaven. To believe so is called ‘presumption’ and has been condemned since long before Martin Luther’s grandfather was born. (you can look it up if you like).

The fact that salvation is a free gift of God via grace is the bedrock and cornerstone of catholic belief. We just don’t truncate the gospel and say that the story ends there. We move on to the much thornier and more subtle issue of sanctification.

Even free gifts must be accepted. They can also be rejected. That acceptance is a lifelong process, not an individual event in one’s life.

Penance and indulgences aren’t about things you do to be forgiven. They are things we do to cooperate with God’s grace in healing and sanctifying us. This isn’t new either. Many abuses of indulgences have occurred in history, but the actual teaching underneath has always been that they are about sanctification, not forgiveness.

In that light, you can see where some abuses started out as legitimate avenues of learning to choose God instead of self. how hard is is it to choose to give the money you saved up for a new house to the cathedral building fund instead? Pretty hard! Making that choice CAN be a real avenue in which one makes another choice for God instead of self. But it can also be manipulated by corrupt clergyman, so indulgences are not formally linked to donations anymore.

 

[manualman]

My concern isn’t with any of this. My concern is with penance and indulgences. If you were to tell me that because of Christ, and not because of anything I did, including good works and meditative prayers, etc., I could understand it and accept it. Can you reconcile this for me?

Jon

Allow me to correct myself. An even stronger catholic condemnation of the concern you have resides in the repudiation of the Pelagian heresy, some 1,000 years before Luther was born. Pelagius supposed that original sin had no stain and only the bad example of Adam resulted in the commonness of sin. He further proposed the idea that Christ’s role was only to provide us a truly good counter example, not to be our savior and to open the floodgates of Grace. Instead, he argued that with the good example of Christ, man could now achieve natural goodness of the sort originally possible before Adam’s sin.

I’ll say it again. This Catholic response to heresy was a good 1,000 years before Luther and hasn’t changed a bit since.

 

[Peter_J]

ELCA feels more like my old church, the UCC.

Ouch!

 

[gcnuss]

Ouch!

Double ouch!!

 

[JonNC]

=manualman;5092601]I think I can. Catholic theology of salvation is and has always been that humanity is fallen to the point where we are unable of our own will and power to be “good enough” to merit heaven. To believe so is called ‘presumption’ and has been condemned since long before Martin Luther’s grandfather was born. (you can look it up if you like).

Lutherans would agree.

The fact that salvation is a free gift of God via grace is the bedrock and cornerstone of catholic belief. We just don’t truncate the gospel and say that the story ends there. We move on to the much thornier and more subtle issue of sanctification.

Even free gifts must be accepted. They can also be rejected. That acceptance is a lifelong process, not an individual event in one’s life.

No problem here, either.

Penance and indulgences aren’t about things you do to be forgiven. They are things we do to cooperate with God’s grace in healing and sanctifying us. This isn’t new either. Many abuses of indulgences have occurred in history, but the actual teaching underneath has always been that they are about sanctification, not forgiveness.

In that light, you can see where some abuses started out as legitimate avenues of learning to choose God instead of self. how hard is is it to choose to give the money you saved up for a new house to the cathedral building fund instead? Pretty hard! Making that choice CAN be a real avenue in which one makes another choice for God instead of self. But it can also be manipulated by corrupt clergyman, so indulgences are not formally linked to donations anymore

I do understand that this is not about fogiveness.

So, and btw, thank you for your time on this, my understanding from what you’ve said is that indulgences and penance do not effect in any way the term/intensity of one’s stay in purgatory. That the cleansing or purgation is done to the saved due to Christ’s sacrifice.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Double ouch!!

:hug1:

A hug from a fellow Lutheran.

 

[James1982]

:hug1:

A hug from a fellow Lutheran.

I realized shortly after posting (of course when I wasn’t at the computer) that the “ELCA=UCC” statement was way out of context…

…So, ELCA folks, just let me first apologize. You don’t deserve that. You absolutely deserve some kind of explanation, and hopefully this doesn’t derail an otherwise incredibly informative and charitable thread.

What I clumsily tried to convey by the statement was that the general feel/atmosphere was similar to me, in some of the churches I have been to. It was not meant to include doctrinal stuff. Heck, I spent 22 years growing up in the UCC, and I’m not even sure I could tell you what their doctrine is… or if there’s a doctrine at all.

A better phrasing of it might be, the tone of the ELCA congregations I’ve been to seems less… rigid than some of the oldschool WELS congregations I’ve been to, and the UCC is my only other basis of comparison. As I am sure many here are aware, some UCC churches are… fairly relaxed atmospheres. I have been to a UCC church, several WELS churches, a couple ELCA churches, and a couple Catholic churches (for friends’ weddings/funerals mostly), and that’s basically it in my life. So within my limited experience, there was a small amount of similarity in tone.

Hope this helps clarify that statement. By no means was it meant to be a Lutheran-on-Lutheran royal rumble.

 

[Peter_J]

ELCA feels more like my old church, the UCC.

…

I realized shortly after posting (of course when I wasn’t at the computer) that the “ELCA=UCC” statement was way out of context…

…So, ELCA folks, just let me first apologize. You don’t deserve that.

I had a strong feeling, when I read your earlier statement, that you didn’t mean it the way it sounded. (Of course, I’m an RC – or to be more politically correct I should say “I’m a C” – so I’m pretty much on the side-lines on this one.)

 

[gcnuss]

I realized shortly after posting (of course when I wasn’t at the computer) that the “ELCA=UCC” statement was way out of context…

---

Hope this helps clarify that statement. By no means was it meant to be a Lutheran-on-Lutheran royal rumble.

Thanks!! Of course, there are great variations in practice within the ELCA, so there may be places where your description is fairly accurate.

 

[manualman]

.

So, and btw, thank you for your time on this, my understanding from what you’ve said is that indulgences and penance do not effect in any way the term/intensity of one’s stay in purgatory. That the cleansing or purgation is done to the saved due to Christ’s sacrifice.

Jon

Hold on. You’re still missing one connection if I read you right.

Purgatory has nothing to do with punishment for sin in the judicial sense. That price was paid by Christ. It has everything to do with punishment for sin in the parental / discipline sense. Somehow between the moment you die and the moment you enter eternal paradise, God completes in believers the transformation from repentant sinner to truly sanctified saint (triumphant). Not only WON’T you sin anymore in heaven, you won’t have any interest in doing so! That’s quite a change from the condition most of us are in here on Earth. how you live your life absolutely has an effect on the “term / intensity” of what God needs to complete in your heart prior to letting you into heaven. When you cooperate with God in the regeneration / sanctification of your heart here on earth, every milestone reached is one less that needs to be finished after death.

Again, Purgatory is not about “paying a price.” It’s how heaven can be more than just a place with pearly gates and streets of gold. It’s how heaven can be populated with humans and not have pain and suffering like we have here on earth.