H
Holly3278
Guest
What do Muslims believe about such issues as abortion and the death penalty and other sanctity of life issues? 
- Status
G
gurrato_alaien
Guest
Peace
Abortion: forbidden in Islam
Death penalty: who kill person without a just cause the penalty is to kill him
Sanctity of life: Islam consider the life of any Muslim is more sanctity than the sanctity of Makka itself, that if any one slew a person, it would be as he slew the whole people
See what Quran say:
005.032
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Peace.
Abortion: forbidden in Islam
Death penalty: who kill person without a just cause the penalty is to kill him
Sanctity of life: Islam consider the life of any Muslim is more sanctity than the sanctity of Makka itself, that if any one slew a person, it would be as he slew the whole people
See what Quran say:
005.032
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Peace.
G
George_Waters
Guest
gurrato alaien:
Does the scancity of life only apply to Muslims then? That is how I am reading your statement “…the life of any Muslim…”. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Would you you please define “Makka”?
Thanks.
gurrato alaien,
Does the scancity of life only apply to Muslims then? That is how I am reading your statement “…the life of any Muslim…”. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Would you you please define “Makka”?
Thanks.
G
gurrato_alaien
Guest
George Waters:
Sanctity of life is not only apply to Muslim but be also for any person
Please read this verse carefully:
Quran 005.032
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that** if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.** Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
So its clearly say that the slew a person whether or not he is Muslim.
Makka is the first holy place for Muslims, the Kaaba (the black building in Makka) which Muslims turn toward when praying and they pilgrim to it every year about more than two million Muslims. The Kaaba is the place of worship which God commanded the Prophets Abraham and his son, Ishmael, to build.
The prophet Mohammed PBUH stated that
“verily, amongst the countries of Allah, Makka is the most adored country to Allah”
Peace.
Peace Brother,
Sanctity of life is not only apply to Muslim but be also for any person
Please read this verse carefully:
Quran 005.032
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that** if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.** Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
So its clearly say that the slew a person whether or not he is Muslim.
Makka is the first holy place for Muslims, the Kaaba (the black building in Makka) which Muslims turn toward when praying and they pilgrim to it every year about more than two million Muslims. The Kaaba is the place of worship which God commanded the Prophets Abraham and his son, Ishmael, to build.
The prophet Mohammed PBUH stated that
“verily, amongst the countries of Allah, Makka is the most adored country to Allah”
Peace.
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
- Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad.
- Islam orders apostates to be killed.
- Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non-Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.
Does Islam really practice human rights?”
by James M. Arlandson
answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/top_ten_sharia.htm for details
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discipleofJesus
Guest
"However, the dhimmi itself is a controversial subject. This word actually means “protégé” or “protected person.” This is one of the arguments of the modern defenders of Islam: the dhimmi has never been persecuted or maltreated (except accidentally); on the contrary, he was a protected person. What better example could illustrate Islam’s liberalism. Here are people who do not accept Islam and, instead of being expelled, they are protected. I have read a great deal of literature attempting to prove that no society or religion has been so tolerant as Islam or has protected or has protected its minorities so well. Naturally, this argument has been used to condemn medieval Christianity (which I have no intention of defending), on the ground that Islam never knew an Inquisition or “witch hunts.” Even if this dubious argument is accepted, let us confine ourselves to an examination of the meaning of the term protected person. One must ask: “protected against whom?” When this “stranger” lives in Islamic countries, the answer can only be: against the Muslims themselves. The point that must be clearly understood is that the very term protégé implies a latent hostility. A similar institution existed in early Rome, where the cliens, the stranger, was always the enemy. He had to be treated as an enemy even if there was no situation of war. But if this stranger obtained the favor of the head of some great family, he became his protégé (cliens) and was then able to reside in Rome: he was “protected” by his “patron” from the acts of aggression that any Roman citizen could commit against him. This also meant that in reality the protected person had no genuine rights. The reader of this book will see that the dhimmi’s condition was defined by a treaty (dhimma) between him (or his group) and a Muslim group. This treaty had a juridical aspect, but was what we would call an unequal contract: the dhimma was a “concessionary charter” (cf. C. Chehata on Muslim law), something that implies two consequences. The first is that the person who concedes the charter can equally well rescind it. It is not, in fact, a contract representing a “consensus” arrived at between the two sides. On the contrary, it is quite arbitrary. The person who grants the treaty is the only one who decides what he is prepared to concede (hence the great variety of conditions). The second is that the resulting situation is the opposite of the one envisaged in the theory of the “rights of man” whereby, by the mere fact of being a human being, one is endowed * automatically with certain rights and those who fail to respect them are at fault. In the case of the “concessionary charter,” on the contrary, one enjoys rights only to the extent that they are recognized in the charter and only for as long as it remains valid.* As a person, by the mere fact of one’s “existence,” one has no claim to any rights. And this, indeed, is the dhimmi’s * condition.* As I have explained above, this condition is unvarying throughout the course of history; it is not the result of social chance, but a rooted concept.
For the conquering Islam of today, those who do not claim to be Muslims do not have any human rights recognized as such…"
(bold emphasis mine)
Taken from the preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html of
‘The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam’ by Bat Ye’or mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Dhimmi.html online.
The preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html is by Jacques Ellul.
Jacques ELLUL died in 1994 at 82. A jurist, historian, theologian and sociologist, he published more than 600 articles and 48 books, many of which were translated into a dozen languages (more than 20 into English). From 1950-70 he was a member of the National Council of the Protestant Reformed Church of France. Professor at the University of Bordeaux, his oeuvre includes studies on medieval European institutions, the effect of modern technology on contemporary society, and moral theology. In American academic circles, he was widely known for “The Technological Society” written in the 1950’s (English edition, 1964) and recognized as one of the most prominent of contemporary thinkers.
For the conquering Islam of today, those who do not claim to be Muslims do not have any human rights recognized as such…"
(bold emphasis mine)
Taken from the preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html of
‘The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam’ by Bat Ye’or mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Dhimmi.html online.
The preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html is by Jacques Ellul.
Jacques ELLUL died in 1994 at 82. A jurist, historian, theologian and sociologist, he published more than 600 articles and 48 books, many of which were translated into a dozen languages (more than 20 into English). From 1950-70 he was a member of the National Council of the Protestant Reformed Church of France. Professor at the University of Bordeaux, his oeuvre includes studies on medieval European institutions, the effect of modern technology on contemporary society, and moral theology. In American academic circles, he was widely known for “The Technological Society” written in the 1950’s (English edition, 1964) and recognized as one of the most prominent of contemporary thinkers.
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PPatience
Guest
Abortion is forbidden, unless:What do Muslims believe about such issues as abortion and the death penalty and other sanctity of life issues?
- There is a threat to the life of the mom.
- The emryo isnt 4 months old
Sanctity of life is guaranteed to people and animals too. We cant kill a person or an animal without a legal reason.
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PPatience
Guest
discipleofJesus said:
- Untrue, u should read well about jihad in ISlam before writing.
- Apostates could be killed if they announced their disbelief. It was mainly for those people who wanted to make Muslims disbelief or non-Muslim not believe in SIlam, by believing in ISlam then disbelief later and speak badly about their experience in ISlam.
- Any insults to any prophet in Islam is blasphemous even to Jesus. Prophets arent an issue for laughing, contempt or rude criticism. We can discuss but not insult.
iad.org/books/WAMY7.html
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George_Waters
Guest
gurrato alaien,
Thank you for your response.
I have some questions about the verse you posted. Who is the “We” in “We ordained…”? This verse only addresses the “Children of Israel”. Does Islam take a broader interpretation of that title?
If the Quran is so clear that the sanctity of life applies to all people how can Muslim extremist commit murder and do so in the name of Islam? I know all faiths have bad people who do bad things, but most people do bad things they know are against their religion, not in the name of that religion. If anyone wants to accept it or not, Islam currently has a greater issue with violent extremist than any other religion. I am not criticizing Islam, I am just perplexed by the fact that a “peaceful” religion with only 20% of the world population can have such a high number of violent extremist convinced that killing non-Muslims is God’s will. Any thoughts?
Thank you for the education on Makka. I have learned something today.
Thank you for your response.
I have some questions about the verse you posted. Who is the “We” in “We ordained…”? This verse only addresses the “Children of Israel”. Does Islam take a broader interpretation of that title?
If the Quran is so clear that the sanctity of life applies to all people how can Muslim extremist commit murder and do so in the name of Islam? I know all faiths have bad people who do bad things, but most people do bad things they know are against their religion, not in the name of that religion. If anyone wants to accept it or not, Islam currently has a greater issue with violent extremist than any other religion. I am not criticizing Islam, I am just perplexed by the fact that a “peaceful” religion with only 20% of the world population can have such a high number of violent extremist convinced that killing non-Muslims is God’s will. Any thoughts?
Thank you for the education on Makka. I have learned something today.
M
MugenOne
Guest
You are absolutely correct. There are bad Christians like there are bad Muslims, but unlike Muslims, Christians don’t commit sins in the name of God.
George Waters:
George Waters:
R
r.gonzales
Guest
greetings george.
George Waters:
George Waters:
The answer can be found in your question itself. Simply put, they are extremists; those who advocate and hold extreme views contrary to the religion’s teachings.
There is no real answer that will provide the level of certainty you seek since it is only Allah know knows what the hearts of man contain and thus it is only He who truly knows why certain groups or individuals will hold such extreme views and commit such acts. However, Allah does informs us, in His final revelation to mankind, of one of the reasons why people will distort the Quran’s teachings. Allah says, “He is the One who sent down the Book (the Quran) to you; from it are decisive verses, they are the mother of the Book, while others are obscure. So as for those in whose hearts is deviation, then they follow what is obscure from it seeking tribulation and seeking its interpretation.” (Quran, 3:7).
Just as is the case with pretty much every religion—including Christianity—Islam has various groups and sects, some of which take their understanding of the teachings of their religion to great extremes. Among the various groups and sects of the world’s religions—whether they be Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or of some other faith—there are people who just have some sort of disease in their hearts and will take the religous texts of their religion and misinterpret them, misusing them for their vain desires and ill intents, while there are others among them who are merely ignorant imitators blindly following and accepting whatever is preached to them.
While this problem must be dealt with—and there are Muslims who are trying to do something about Muslim extremists—the main thing to understand here is the fact that extremists are found in every world religion, in every era throughout history, and they are not a phenomenon specific to Islam or even to the present day.
another thing which i feel deserves mention is the fact that the media has chosen to focus on islam, muslims and muslim terrorist activity in exclusion of many other terrorist activities committed by other groups. in edward w. said’s criticism of daniel pipes in his introduction to the vintage edition of covering islam: how the media and experts determine how we see the rest of the world, p. xix, he states (bold mine, italics from original):
Violent, irrational, unappeasable, totally uncompromising, Pipe’s “fundamentalist” Islam threatens the world, and especially “us,” even though, according to State Department figures, terrorism originating in the Middle East is sixth in order of occurance and frequency.
although i’m sure that the numbers have gone up since this was statement from said was written in 1996, i mention this to give an indication of how exaggerated the media makes things seem. a quick look at the statistical charts from 2000 on the state department website shows that the rankings up until at least 5 years ago haven’t changed much since said wrote those words (state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2453.htm).
i’d recommend this book to you. it’s a pretty interesting read so far (i’m a little more than a third of the way through).
George Waters:
that’s not entirely true. the kkk claim adherence to christianity. they claim they are racist against non-whites because this is what is taught in the bible. they commit their racial discrimination in the name of their religion, not because they know it’s against it. when the christans of europe went around warring against other nations, conducting witch hunts, and coverting non-christians by the sword—all things you say are against the bible’s teachings—they did so in the name of religion.
George Waters:
one of my friends sent me a question from a non-muslim asking something similar to what you ask here at the beginning of this quote. the following is the reply i sent back to my friend to answer the person’s question:
The answer can be found in your question itself. Simply put, they are extremists; those who advocate and hold extreme views contrary to the religion’s teachings.
There is no real answer that will provide the level of certainty you seek since it is only Allah know knows what the hearts of man contain and thus it is only He who truly knows why certain groups or individuals will hold such extreme views and commit such acts. However, Allah does informs us, in His final revelation to mankind, of one of the reasons why people will distort the Quran’s teachings. Allah says, “He is the One who sent down the Book (the Quran) to you; from it are decisive verses, they are the mother of the Book, while others are obscure. So as for those in whose hearts is deviation, then they follow what is obscure from it seeking tribulation and seeking its interpretation.” (Quran, 3:7).
Just as is the case with pretty much every religion—including Christianity—Islam has various groups and sects, some of which take their understanding of the teachings of their religion to great extremes. Among the various groups and sects of the world’s religions—whether they be Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or of some other faith—there are people who just have some sort of disease in their hearts and will take the religous texts of their religion and misinterpret them, misusing them for their vain desires and ill intents, while there are others among them who are merely ignorant imitators blindly following and accepting whatever is preached to them.
While this problem must be dealt with—and there are Muslims who are trying to do something about Muslim extremists—the main thing to understand here is the fact that extremists are found in every world religion, in every era throughout history, and they are not a phenomenon specific to Islam or even to the present day.
another thing which i feel deserves mention is the fact that the media has chosen to focus on islam, muslims and muslim terrorist activity in exclusion of many other terrorist activities committed by other groups. in edward w. said’s criticism of daniel pipes in his introduction to the vintage edition of covering islam: how the media and experts determine how we see the rest of the world, p. xix, he states (bold mine, italics from original):
Violent, irrational, unappeasable, totally uncompromising, Pipe’s “fundamentalist” Islam threatens the world, and especially “us,” even though, according to State Department figures, terrorism originating in the Middle East is sixth in order of occurance and frequency.
although i’m sure that the numbers have gone up since this was statement from said was written in 1996, i mention this to give an indication of how exaggerated the media makes things seem. a quick look at the statistical charts from 2000 on the state department website shows that the rankings up until at least 5 years ago haven’t changed much since said wrote those words (state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2453.htm).
i’d recommend this book to you. it’s a pretty interesting read so far (i’m a little more than a third of the way through).
N
Neverland
Guest
Dear Gonzales,
You said:
that’s not entirely true. the kkk claim adherence to christianity. they claim they are racist against non-whites because this is what is taught in the bible. they commit their racial discrimination in the name of their religion, not because they know it’s against it. when the christans of europe went around warring against other nations, conducting witch hunts, and coverting non-christians by the sword—all things you say are against the bible’s teachings—they did so in the name of religion.
A new knowledge for me. Care to give me the link to the source and can you tell me the verses they use?
You also said about the extremests. I watched tv about terorrism, and they interviewed the captured terrorists. And they looked very sainty, with Islamic cloth, and they convinced that it was told by Quran to do so, and also cited verses, including hadiths. So which one is correct? One of the moslem apologist interviewed said that Prophet Mohammed only went to war three times, but the interviewed terrorist said that Prophet Mohammed went to war many times. Which one lied?
Neverland
You said:
that’s not entirely true. the kkk claim adherence to christianity. they claim they are racist against non-whites because this is what is taught in the bible. they commit their racial discrimination in the name of their religion, not because they know it’s against it. when the christans of europe went around warring against other nations, conducting witch hunts, and coverting non-christians by the sword—all things you say are against the bible’s teachings—they did so in the name of religion.
A new knowledge for me. Care to give me the link to the source and can you tell me the verses they use?
You also said about the extremests. I watched tv about terorrism, and they interviewed the captured terrorists. And they looked very sainty, with Islamic cloth, and they convinced that it was told by Quran to do so, and also cited verses, including hadiths. So which one is correct? One of the moslem apologist interviewed said that Prophet Mohammed only went to war three times, but the interviewed terrorist said that Prophet Mohammed went to war many times. Which one lied?
Neverland
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George_Waters
Guest
You are correct about the KKK and that is why I said “most” in my original post.
We all have extremist. (Try dealing with a Fundamentalist Christian with a sign in front of your place of worship sometime… actually I pray you never have to!) Thanks for sharing your e-mail.
The state department info seems to indicate (I have not had time to read the supporting documentation) the areas where the attacks took place, not who perpetuated the attack.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Media bias aside, you have to admit r.gonzales that Muslim extremist are the biggest obstacle to peace between Muslim, Jew and Christian. It is easy to see (based on certain quotes from the Quran posted on this forum) why so many Muslims claim they are doing the will of Allah and why so many Christians see Islam as a violent religion. Hopefully greater knowledge and understand will prevail.
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
PPatience said:
It is true. I have read well about jihad in Islam. Maybe you should take your own advice?
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0033:
“It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
PPatience said:
So what does the Muslim who converts to Christianity have to do? Live his life pretending to be a Muslim? Never ever go to church? Marry a Muslim girl? How can they live their life without announcing they have converted?
Anyway, what you wrote is not true. Muhammad commanded that anyone who leaves Islam is to be killed. He said nothing about killing them only if they announce it or only if they try to make other Muslims disbelieve or only if they speak badly about Islam.
Even if they don’t say anything about Islam. They are still to be killed. Even if they attempt to be discreet about leaving Islam and attempt to hide it, but somehow it is revealed that they converted and are trying to hide that they did this, they are to be killed.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
“Narrated Abu Burda:
Abu Musa said… Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers…”
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
“Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:
“Narrated 'Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah’s Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.”
PPatience said:
Who said anything about insults, laughing, contempt or rude criticism? I said “Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non-Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.”
I
inJESUS
Guest
gurrato alaien:
O
Ortho
Guest
I think the Crusaders killed everyone in Jerusalem in the name of Christianity. They rode under the cross.
Here’s a great site. (Turn your speakers down.) “The Ku Klux Klan is a US Supreme Court recognized and protected Christian Organization in multiple Supreme Court decisions, and has received a Charter from US Congress.” What does this tell us about Christianity? kkkk.net/
I see the good Rev. Phelps on TV with signs saying, “God hates fags.” What does one conclude about Christianity?
Aquinas said it was OK to kill heretics, and the Church cooperated with the state in killing them.
Should a religion be evaluated on its entire track record, or only for a specific time period?
I
inJESUS
Guest
Maybe you should read Jesus’ teachings to see if he condones such things or not…
G
George_Waters
Guest
Oh, Ortho my friend let me tell you… being from Topeka I see their signs all the time and my favorite is “God Hates You!”
O
Ortho
Guest
George Waters:
Does that guy have any real following in Topeka? I don’t know if he has any real support or just a small travelling circus.
Since you are from Topeka…
Does that guy have any real following in Topeka? I don’t know if he has any real support or just a small travelling circus.
G
George_Waters
Guest
His support ends with his family… at least the ones that have not disowned him. I would guess there are maybe 20 or 30 of them, but I am honestly not sure. I believe his website is: godhatesamerica.com. I’d look for you, but I am at work.
He used to picket my church, but we have not seen him for awhile. Thank God! They are still pretty active here, but for the most part he is either ignored or totally eclipsed by counter-demonstrators.
- Status