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jakasaki
Guest
Yes, thank you… I did modify my inquiry because I did find it.
But in the future Hamba, please quote the volume & hadith number as well as the authors name or perhpaps a link.
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But in the future Hamba, please quote the volume & hadith number as well as the authors name or perhpaps a link.
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dzheremi
Guest
This may be nice as an intellectual exercise, but let’s not forget as Christians who is a LIAR (Muhammad) and who is THE TRUTH (Jesus Christ). If Muhammad was, by some amazing coincidence, actually telling the truth in the quoted hadith, it would only confirm to us that there were no even slightly orthodox Christians around Muhammad, so either way we can still feel fine (heck, feel GOOD! Feel strengthened in our faith!) even as we reject Muhammad, the Qur’an, and Islam. They’re all false anyway, so why worry?
[We need an Alfred E. Newman icon for posts like this…
]
[We need an Alfred E. Newman icon for posts like this…
]
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jakasaki
Guest
Did you get an answer to that question?
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jakasaki
Guest
Oh DZ, I am not worried for one moment. The Truth is in Jesus Christ!This may be nice as an intellectual exercise, but let’s not forget as Christians who is a LIAR (Muhammad) and who is THE TRUTH (Jesus Christ). If Muhammad was, by some amazing coincidence, actually telling the truth in the quoted hadith, it would only confirm to us that there were no even slightly orthodox Christians around Muhammad, so either way we can still feel fine (heck, feel GOOD! Feel strengthened in our faith!) even as we reject Muhammad, the Qur’an, and Islam. They’re all false anyway, so why worry?
[We need an Alfred E. Newman icon for posts like this…
Amen!
R
ralphinal
Guest
You know me too well.
If this is true, and the Qur’an claims that Christians do just that, doesn’t that mean Christians are the worst sinners on earth?
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ralphinal
Guest
It seems like she told me once before that since it was done years ago, it could be done again.
I did not think to ask how do we know that it was really true Islam back then and not romantic revisionistic history
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hamba2han
Guest
Christians are not alone in assigning partners to the Lord as there are a lot of idol-worshipping faiths in the world… and so, this would not make Christians the worst sinners on earth.
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ralphinal
Guest
But it would mean that the Qur’an says we’re in trouble. And doesn’t it also say that Christians are safe? Which one is it?
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jakasaki
Guest
Indeed Ralph…
Koran chapter #22:17 claims we are doomed because allah will judge the right religion
Koran chapter #2:62 claims we are OK, no fear
Koran chapter #5:69 claims we are OK, no fear
Edit to add:
My post #11 have the passages posted
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Kadaveri
Guest
Regarding 2:62 and 5:69, those verses are being misinterpreted in this thread; it is not saying that those groups listed will go to Paradise. When the Qur’an says ‘believers, Jews, Christians, Sabeans’ it is calling out to those groups before giving a message which they should listen and adhere to; the message being that ‘whoever believes in God and the Last Day and works righteousness’ will have their reward with their Lord. Like a teacher may say to his students ‘John, Michael, Alice, Laura, whoever gets an A in this exam will get a prize’, but that’s no guarantee that those students named will get As and get the prize.
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dzheremi
Guest
That still does not resolve what we are to think of the contradictory messages elsewhere in the Qur’an, where it apparently does not matter what we do or the fact that we are “People of the Book”, we’re still damned for not accepting Muhammad and Islam.
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Jay53
Guest
Kadaveri,
Here’s my question - perhaps you can answer it from a Muslim perspective:
Here’s my question - perhaps you can answer it from a Muslim perspective:
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jakasaki
Guest
Really?
I read the passage and it’s quite clear. If I were a koranist “only” muslim, these 2 verses are crystal clear and they do contradict the 22.17.
Chapter 2 #62
62 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Chapter 5 #69
69 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
And what facts do you have that us **Christians **are not doing that?
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Kadaveri
Guest
I don’t see what there is to be resolved. The Qur’an calls on all humanity to accept Islam and warns you that you will suffer damnation if you don’t. Being ‘People of the Book’ doesn’t change that.
Sorry, but I can’t really answer that question, it’s for God to decide. I wouldn’t count on it though.
Rejecting the Qur’an, rejecting Muhammad’s Prophethood and believing Jesus to be God are all examples of things which in Islam are considered tantamount to rejecting God Himself.
I can’t comment on your rejection of my explanation of 2:62 and 5:69 as it has no substance.
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Jay53
Guest
OK. Thanks for your honesty at least. I am definitely counting on it though because I believe Jesus and His teachings, not Muhammad.
Muhammad has proven himself to be one of the false prophets Jesus warned us about by contradicting previous scriptures already verified as being from God.
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CatholicGuy22
Guest
I have no idea all i know is that i have trust in jesus!
If the world hates you remember that it hated me first, no servant is greater than his master, if they persecuted me(jesus) they will persecute you.
If the world hates you remember that it hated me first, no servant is greater than his master, if they persecuted me(jesus) they will persecute you.
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ralphinal
Guest
Yes, but then it says that Christians assign partners to God. And those who do that are in deep doo-doo.
It is really very subtile. It does not say that Christians are damned, only those who assign partners to God
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Kadaveri
Guest
That is because the Qur’an doesn’t declare the fate of entire groups of people who happen to possess a certain label, but rather gives warnings of the consequences of specific actions. I guess you could call it subtle, but that’s not the point. The point is that it is your actions that decide your fate, not whatever label you attribute to yourself. This includes Muslims.
Hello again.The verse I was thinking of, by the way, is Pickthal translation of 29:46: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender.
This stance seems to contradict what is in 29:46 above (particularly the “we believe in what has been revealed unto you” part), but…eh…wrong thread…
29:46 doesn’t mean not to argue with the People of the Book full stop, but rather to argue with them in the ways that are best. It’s similar in meaning to 16:125: “Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious”.
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dzheremi
Guest
I don’t think the meaning of “argue” is the most important part of my problem with this. What of the “we believe in what has been revealed unto you” bit? If that is true, then where does this idea of Christian corruption come from, given that the substantial message of the Bible has not changed since the time of Muhammad (meaning, there are Bibles from Muhammad’s time and before that also proclaim Christ’s divinity, the Trinity, the Resurrection, and all the other things that Muslims have problems with)? How can it be that you believe in what has been given to us when the Qur’an denies the substance of it? I know you will say “we are not talking about the Gospels, we are talking about the teachings of Christ”, as though the Gospels were not written by apostles of the same Christ, but simply stating corruption is anything that conflicts with the Qur’an does not wash with non-Muslims, the very people the Qur’an is apparently warning…
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Mosacked
Guest
Would islam have thrived if it remains commonly known as the pagan moon worship from arabia? Of course not. The key to expanding the religion by leaps & bounds is to springboard it from another major religion.
Imagine this: Who is allah? If allah cannot be acquainted or affiliated with another that has a history of great powers and miracles, how can islam even survive? In short, without Christianity & Judaism, islam’s allah would have NOTHING. No Record. Nothing to its name.
Everyone will start questioning, who is allah???
Yet, it is utter folly for anyone to think that the affiliation is legitimate and start to believe that the muslims are worshipping the same God as the Jews & Christians, when they are really worshipping the moon-idol, Baal.
What you should not fail to notice, is that islam purposefully rejects the deity of Christ (ie, it tells humanity ‘hey, God did not come down to sacrifice Himself for you’, you have to depend on yourself, now who do you think would want you to think that way and deny the Salvation Grace??? - Satan). Secondly, islam teaches its followers to attack Jews, the chosen people of God. Thirdly, the Bible tells us very clearly how prophets should be like, how people of God should behave and how Jesus will return. If people are not able to understand nor recognise what is against the will of God, and not able to recognise the voice of God, then these people are not God’s people to begin with.
muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
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