What do people blame Vatican 2 for and why?🤔

Status
Not open for further replies.
Another primary focus of the Council:
II. The Promotion of Liturgical Instruction and Active Participation
  1. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.
In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.
I lived in the time prior to the Council and see this as another excellent fruit born of the Holy Spirit. At first, there was a three-year experimentation period, after which the results were to be weighed, and the period ended. That is when some birthed objectionable expressions in the liturgy.

Having lived in pre-VII and afterwards, I have to say there is no way I would want to return to the older liturgy. Lots of folks simply prayed the rosary during Mass, since they had virtually no responsibility of participating and were highly passive, just going through the motions.
 
Yes, I disagree-completely. Vat II was not about compromising the truth in order to appeal to modern tastes but about rising above a virtual siege mentality (necessarily put in place as a reaction to the Reformation, perhaps)and dependency on archaic structures that had no use in the first or 20th century but had in fact become sort of idols in themselves in the meanwhile, regardless of their value at some point in the past. Communism has been addressed strongly by the Church but that was not in line with the mission of Vat II, which was mainly to open the window to a fresh approach to spreading the gospel to the world, in light, for one thing, of a growing understanding or knowledge of God’s nature and will IMO. The light takes time to penetrate, in our own lives personally and in the world. Love is placed out more to the forefront, love which overcomes fear. So that the Church can be an even better Mother, to all. And Vat II documents spell out and convey the mindset behind this mission in a very broad manner. We’ll be digesting its influence for many, many, years.

The Church knows what she’s doing. And knew which schemata were relevant and which were not.
 
Last edited:
I went to Catholic school post V2 and was the proud creator of many many many felt banners.
I liked religion class and the nuns were mostly okay (just like the lay teachers, some were mean, some were nice, and most were somewhere in the middle).
But from my own constant reading, and talking to my parents and grandparents , I was exposed to some of the pre V2 opinions.
The old ways were very strict, but they were also very rich.

My own opinion is that we lost quite a bit after Vatican 2.

That’s not the same as saying Vatican 2 was all bad, either.
 
A new English translation of the Roman Missal was introduced in 2011. (The original USA translation dates from the early 1970s.) The Holy See had issued a directive, Liturgiam Authenticam, in 2001 that required translations to be more faithful to the original Latin. The 1970s English translation was rather free-wheeling.
 
The old ways were very strict, but they were also very rich.
Many good things were thrown out after the Council, which were still valid, and compatible with the Council. I’m still discovering bits and pieces still useful, which I had forgotten.
 
Fifty years on the Church is not in too good a shape so it would seem to be a good idea to re-evaluate. For example if the modern Mass was the be all end all then there wouldn’t have been a need for Summorum Pontificum. Now the Traditional Latin Mass is flourishing and the source of many conversions.
 
Vatican II did not even suggest any of the changes mentioned. None. Right after the end of the Council (1965), radicals and anarchists inside and outside the Church launched a coordinated attack against it and society at large. Sexual perversion and illegal drug use were widely promoted. As well as cohabitation with sex.
 
Last edited:
but also why is Vatican 2 blamed?
Because people are people…Some people have an agenda, and they find Vll to be a digestible scapegoat for the masses. Some people are simply parroting others. Some people lack critical thinking skills. I’m sure there are other poor justifications too.

But none of them hold up to scrutiny. There is no evidence in a simple causation-correlation argument here, which is the type of argument used by most Vll accusers.
 
Last edited:
Fortunately, some of us had poor digestions. Vatican II as scapegoat is the common message.
 
But none of them hold up to scrutiny. There is no evidence in a simple causation-correlation argument here, which is the type of argument used by most Vll accusers.
I haven’t heard the argument lately, but there used to be a popular line of thought here in America blaming the lack of morality since the 1960’s on the Supreme Court decision to take prayer out of the public schools in 1962.

That isn’t true either.
 
Something about the way you have framed this seems off.
Precisely my reaction to her bearself’s summary.
What do you mean by saying the WW2 generation suppressed antipathy toward the new mass? It certainly doesn’t seems like they did.
The new mass was received enthusiastically as it was presented in the 60s and 70s. There was some opposition to it, which was met by indulging the opponents (indults) and co-opting them. Lefebvre chose intransigence. This is at high levels in the Church; at the parish level people implemented these policies with less finesse.
What does discipline have to do with it?
Those who were ordained in the pre Vatican 2 Church knew about discipline. Those who lived after learned the idea, but they cannot handle the reality. They often do not realize those who complain that we need more discipline will be the first ones disciplined. If you do not like liturgical creativity, expect to be told to do as everybody else does and stop calling for Latin or the EF. It is only the committment to creativity that allows experimentation using the old missal.

This is all a symptom of the worldwide changes ushered in by totalitarian governments. The Church was on the side of topdown hierarchies, royalty and aristocracy. Until the Third Reich, a third version fo the Holy Roman Empire, failed so drastically. The forces of revolution — the Americans, the Soviets, the French — were victorious over the aristocracy in WW2. The Church had to choose between democracy and autocrats. If the Church had continued to support autocrats, as some seem to want, we would be in much worse shape than we are now.
 
A very strange response. I was there before and after Vatican II. I was in Catholic School and the nuns gave us the basics. When the Mass changed to the common language with the priest facing the people, I obeyed Holy Mother Church.
What happened shortly after the end of the council was Hippies, anarchists and sexual perverts appearing in our neighborhoods to preach their gospel of how we should live. That’s the reality. Meanwhile, those inside the Church began to wreck it – to do what radicals of today do: Turn everything upside down.
 
Pope Benedict made it very clear that the people got the media version, not the Council of the Fathers. That’s the reality. Today, the Church is being righted like a ship that has gone through a storm.

People caused the changes, and starting in 1970, the media joined in. The Body of Christ in the West was gradually poisoned. If we had gone from Ozzie and Harriet to the horrible Two and a Half Men overnight, people would have begun throwing out their TV sets. People portraying bad examples on TV and in movies are what? Doing nothing? No, they are showing everyone that you can happily live in sin.
 
My background is the same as yours. Many in the media and many inside and outside of the Church decided that the council was intended to make the Church catch up with the rest of the world’s “progressive” ideals. Even as a young teen I knew they were interpreting concilliar documents selectively, if reading them at all.
 
Last edited:
Pope Benedict understood what was happening - especially regarding “creativity.” The Hippies and others were supported by “Head Shops” who sold Marxist/anarchist underground newspapers. I bought a few and saw things like a poster that read: “Eat the Rich.” Underground comix also appeared and they depicted the desired lifestyle being sold to the masses.

"In the first place, there is the fear that the document detracts from the authority of the Second Vatican Council, one of whose essential decisions – the liturgical reform – is being called into question.

This fear is unfounded. In this regard, it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy. The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration. It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. At the time of the introduction of the new Missal, it did not seem necessary to issue specific norms for the possible use of the earlier Missal. Probably it was thought that it would be a matter of a few individual cases which would be resolved, case by case, on the local level. Afterwards, however, it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood. This was especially the case in countries where the liturgical movement had provided many people with a notable liturgical formation and a deep, personal familiarity with the earlier Form of the liturgical celebration. We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church."
 
Last edited:
Pope Benedict lived through it. I lived through it. I watched people/radicals gradually turning the West away from God. Bit by bit, year after year, they portrayed a little bad then a little more and a little more, until confusion and promiscuity are the order of the day.

Right now - it’s all about the media. God, the Church - who needs that? The Pope is not in the habit of giving opinions. As head of Christ’s Church on earth, he will be judged for what he says. He knows that. He must guide us as required to live good, decent lives. That some people are doing the opposite was the plan all along.
 
You know what they blame Vatican II for.

Why do they blame it? Two reasons :

(1) Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a common logical fallacy
(2) Schism is a hell of a drug
 
If you do not like liturgical creativity, expect to be told to do as everybody else does and stop calling for Latin or the EF. It is only the committment to creativity that allows experimentation using the old missal.
Again, this just sounds off. It simply doesn’t compute.

Using the old missal is not experimentation. The Traditional Latin Mass (Extraordinary Form) was never abrogated as Popes John Paul and especially Benedict so clearly explained.
The Church had to choose between democracy and autocrats. If the Church had continued to support autocrats, as some seem to want, we would be in much worse shape than we are now.
What does this opinion have to do with anything?
 
Being let loose to do violence to the minds of the faithful is a powerful drug.

My advice: avoid and ignore. Do not participate in what the world tells you to do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top