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Walking_Home
Guest
Do you----understand —THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS.
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Do you----understand —THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Thank you for catching my mispelling----and yes—I am familiar with it.
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lentang2
Guest
Yes, I do. Do you believe you do?
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Walking_Home
Guest
You say understand The Holy Sacrifice—yet you did not make the connection between Calvary and our Mass.
paramedicgirl Quote:
Originally Posted by lentang2
Maybe for you, but why are you assuming everyone loses their focus on the Creator? For me, I simply see Christ in EVERYONE during the Sign of Peace - just wish I could maintain the vision for the rest of the day!
Are you also able to keep your focus on the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar which has just taken place? If you were present at Calvary would you be shaking your neigbour’s hand while Jesus was being put to death? Just a thought…
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LilyM
Guest
Put it this way, yes it would be much more liturgically appropriate to have the Sign of Peace before the Consecration, but them’s the breaks.
Being that you and I aren’t able to change where it is, it’s still a significant and solemn part of the Mass and should be treated as such. Regardless of when it is done, it should be entirely heartfelt and genuine. Doesn’t mean it should take a long time, but no need to ignore or downplay it either.
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lentang2
Guest
Why don’t you explain it to us all:
- The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
- The Meaning of the Sign of Peace
- How Calvary relates to the sign of peace and the Mass
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BobP123
Guest
So you’re implying that there are winners and losers amongst the fruits of Vatican II? That God’s children have now formed battle lines against one another is a good thing? That now the “losers” have to develop a deal-with-it mentality that those who are more spirtually enlighted by the new-age “spirit” don’t have to?
I wish the pre-Vatican II nuns had prepared me for this. I really do. Most of us I guess just didn’t see it coming and those of us who really cared about our Catholic faith and took the liturgy seriously now need to get a life. Ubi Deus?
Where are the fruits of Vatican II if you don’t want to understand?
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LilyM
Guest
Why not? Every time any decision is made there are people on the so-called ‘losing’ side. People who don’t like the decision that’s been taken.
And yes, ‘dealing with it’ is what mature people have to do at least sometimes. You think there would ever be ANY form the Mass could take that would make everybody completely happy? Even NEARLY everybody? Heck, ANYBODY? Maybe in some parallel universe, not this one.
You’re mainly unhappy because it’s not YOUR ‘more spiritually enlightened’ opinion and preferences that are being catered to. As I freely admit I am when mine aren’t (and they aren’t in most NOs, I can tell ya!)
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Warren_Stassi
Guest
Sure Throw out two thousand years of history to opean the windows to what? The idiotic hootenany mass? Do you want to know my point look at our church today it has deterioated so much that the only way we have of getting priest is to find some of them in India Catholic nuns forget it .
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Joysong
Guest
Lack of good catechesis, Lentang. Some folks get “bizarre” ideas into their heads and keep them until the truth is discovered either through education or enlightenment from the Spirit when the meditating upon the scriptures.
You have the correct sense of the Mystical Body of Christ, seeing Christ in everyone, which is literally the truth. You had asked these ladies to explain, but if they do so, it might not be correct, and it will also continue the already serious thread drift.
Let’s explore together, for greater appreciation of Christ’s mystical body, the encyclical of the same name written by Pope Pius XII. I will begin a new thread.
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stmaria
Guest
The majority of Catholics believe that the Novus Ordo was created by the guidelines from the Vatican II document “ The Constitution on the Liturgy”. This is simply not true,
The most accurate books ever written on Vatican II were, “ The Rhine flows into the Tiber “ by Father Ralph Wiltgen and “ The Pope,Council and the World “ by Time Magazine’s Robert Kaiser. Both books contain Personal interviews and press conferences that were made by the Priests, Bishops and Cardinals present at the Council. These books are not a revision of history. They were not written some 20 years later. They were written at the time of the Council and are accurate accounts of what actually happened on the Council floor.
The following are statements from both books that prove that the Novus Ordo was created before the Council ever began.
**Three weeks **after the Council began and more than **one year before the Constitution on the Liturgy was even voted on, **Bishop William Dushak gave the following statement: “ “My idea is to introduce an ecumenical Mass, stripped wherever possible of historical accretions, one that is based on the essence of the Holy Sacrifice, one that is deeply rooted in Holy Scripture. By this I mean that it should contain all the essential elements of the Last Supper, using language and gestures that are understandable…It would be a kind of celebration of the Mass which all members of a community…can readily understand without involved explanations…the entire Mass, including the Canon, should be said aloud in the vernacular and facing the people….this ecumenical Mass… **is to be written by liturgical scholars of all faiths in order to provide a basis of common worship by all Christians” **
When asked if his proposal originated with the people whom he served he stated, “ No, I think they would oppose it, just as many bishops oppose it. But if it could be put into practice, I think they would accept it” Dushaks remarks were carried on page one of the New York Times on November 6 1962 only three weeks after the Council began and five years before the Novus Ordo was shown to the Synod of Bishops for the first time.
In the book *Pope, Council and the World *the author reveals that the conservatives led by Cardinal Ottaviani, head of the Roman Curia, were so distraught by not only the attempts by the progressives to change the Mass but by other changes to Catholic Theology that they “ published a special red tome of 640 pages and delivered it to every Council Father at his Rome residence. The book was entitled Complotto Contro La Chiese……the special message: that cardinals, archbishops, and bishops of the Council’s progressive wing are part of a gigantic Communistic, Masonic, Zionist plot to destroy the Church”
It is clear that the New Mass was written by Cardinal Lecaro, Archibishop Felici, Annibale Bugnini, a host of Progressive Theologians and Six Protestant ministers.
Then there is this on page 139 of The Rhine Flows into the Tiber : Father Marsili said “ Everyone on the Liturigical Commission was aware, he said, that three separate versions of the document { The Constitution on the Liturgy} had been prepared for the Pope. The one which eventually reached him had been so thoroughly altered by Archbishop Felici that in part it even contradicted the Constitution as promulgated.”
It is clear when you read The Constitution on the Liturgy, which was approved by a vote of 2147 for and 4 against, that it did not give permission for the entire Mass to be said in the vernacular, only the epistle, Gospel and a few readings. It did not give approval to communion in the hand, the removal of the Tabernacle, the priest facing the people, the changing of the words of Consecration, replacing the Sacred Canon with nine Eucharist prayers etc., etc., etc.
The book The Rhine Flows into the Tiber shows that the Fathers believed that only simple changes would be made to the Mass. So simple that they thought the changes would take place immediately after the Constitution was promulgated on Dec. 4 1963. Yet it would be four years, October 1967, before the New Mass was shown for the first time to Cardinal Ottaviani and the Synod of bishops.
As Cardinal Ottaviani would say later “ the Novus Ordo …represents…. a striking departure from the Catholic Theology of the Mass”
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Thomas58
Guest
Is this is the “fruit” of Vatican II? Is this is the “new springtime” of the church?
The figures on the post-Vatican II decline were summarized by Pat Buchanan in a Dec. 11, 2002 article called “An index of Catholicism’s decline” on townhall.com. Pat Buchanan was drawing on the research of Kenneth Jones’ work, “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators” :
The Church Since Vatican II.-“While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
“-- Ordinations. - In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
– Seminarians.- Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed."“
– Sisters. - In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
“-- Religious Orders. - For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by twothirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.
“-- Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.
“–Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in2002.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Thomas
The figures on the post-Vatican II decline were summarized by Pat Buchanan in a Dec. 11, 2002 article called “An index of Catholicism’s decline” on townhall.com. Pat Buchanan was drawing on the research of Kenneth Jones’ work, “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators” :
The Church Since Vatican II.-“While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
“-- Ordinations. - In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
– Seminarians.- Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed."“
– Sisters. - In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
“-- Religious Orders. - For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by twothirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.
“-- Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.
“–Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in2002.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Thomas
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LilyM
Guest
Don’t forget these are fruits of the Catholic Church as well as of the ‘spirit of Vatican 2’ - so you’re saying the whole Church is evil, not just Vatican 2. And the whole Church includes you, buddy.
Old saying - you point a finger at someone else, three of your fingers are pointing right back at you.
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ElizabethPH
Guest
It seems to me that Catholics because of it just keep getting more and more protestant like.
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Thomas58
Guest
I don’t think that anyone can objectively look at what has happened in the Church since Vatican II and not come to the conclusion that the Church is in a great state of crisis now.
Since the Novus Ordo Mass was introduced we have seen “Clown Masses”, we have seen a priest dressed as Dracula; in a football jersey accompanied by cheerleaders;as a cheese-head; driving a Volkswagen down the aisle of church as the people sing hosanna. There have been disco Masses; there have been gymnastic performances during the New Mass; balloon Masses; Carnival Masses; there have been nude Masses, at which scantily clad or nude people take part. The world has seen juggling Masses, at which a juggler performs during the New Mass.The world has seen priests celebrate the New Mass with Dorito Chips; with Mountain Dew; on a cardboard box; with cookies; with Chinese tea accompanied by ancestor worship; with a basketball as the priest bounces it all over the altar; with a guitar as the priest plays a solo performance. The world has witnessed the New Mass with a priest almost totally nude as he dances around the altar or with other high-wire abominations.The world has seen New Masses with priests dressed in native pagan costumes;with a Jewish Menorah placed on the altar;with a statue of Buddha on the altar; with nuns making offerings to female goddesses; with lectors and gift bearers dressed up as voodoo Satanists. The world has seen the New Mass at which the performer is dressed in a tuxedo and tells jokes. The world has seen rock concerts at the New Mass;guitar and polka New Masses;a puppet New Mass; a New Mass where the people gather round the altar dressed as devils; a New Mass where people perform lewd dances to the beat of a steel drum band. The world has seen a New Mass where nuns dressed as pagan vestal virgins make pagan offerings and the world has also seen New Masses incorporating every false religion.
This is just a sampling of the kind of thing that occurs in almost every diocese in the world where the New Mass is celebrated, to one degree or another.
Thomas
Since the Novus Ordo Mass was introduced we have seen “Clown Masses”, we have seen a priest dressed as Dracula; in a football jersey accompanied by cheerleaders;as a cheese-head; driving a Volkswagen down the aisle of church as the people sing hosanna. There have been disco Masses; there have been gymnastic performances during the New Mass; balloon Masses; Carnival Masses; there have been nude Masses, at which scantily clad or nude people take part. The world has seen juggling Masses, at which a juggler performs during the New Mass.The world has seen priests celebrate the New Mass with Dorito Chips; with Mountain Dew; on a cardboard box; with cookies; with Chinese tea accompanied by ancestor worship; with a basketball as the priest bounces it all over the altar; with a guitar as the priest plays a solo performance. The world has witnessed the New Mass with a priest almost totally nude as he dances around the altar or with other high-wire abominations.The world has seen New Masses with priests dressed in native pagan costumes;with a Jewish Menorah placed on the altar;with a statue of Buddha on the altar; with nuns making offerings to female goddesses; with lectors and gift bearers dressed up as voodoo Satanists. The world has seen the New Mass at which the performer is dressed in a tuxedo and tells jokes. The world has seen rock concerts at the New Mass;guitar and polka New Masses;a puppet New Mass; a New Mass where the people gather round the altar dressed as devils; a New Mass where people perform lewd dances to the beat of a steel drum band. The world has seen a New Mass where nuns dressed as pagan vestal virgins make pagan offerings and the world has also seen New Masses incorporating every false religion.
This is just a sampling of the kind of thing that occurs in almost every diocese in the world where the New Mass is celebrated, to one degree or another.
Thomas
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LilyM
Guest
‘Almost every diocese in the world’ - don’t make me laugh. In my 30-odd years of attendance at the Novus Ordo mass I have seen abuses, sure, but certainly not ANY of the things you mention, and I’ve attended Mass in many dioceses around the world, believe you me.
Furthermore, it seems to me the Church is not in a bit more crisis than it was during the time of the Arian heresy when so much of Europe lost the true faith. During the time of the schism from the Orthodox Church. During the time of the Great Western schism where there were at one stage THREE claimants to the Papacy. During the time of the Reformation when so many faithful Catholics died or were imprisoned or otherwise punished for their faith. During the French Revolution when a prostitute was placed on the altar of Notre Dame itself and worshipped as the ‘Goddess of Reason’
During Napoleon’s godless reign when he held the Pope himself prisoner for a time.The Church is ALWAYS in crisis, if crisis is what you’re looking for. And amid the crisis there is always great faith and sanctity as well. That will never change.
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ElizabethPH
Guest
It just seems to me that it has unwittingly paved the road for Catholics to become more protestant like. The Mass has become more of a social event.
And germs are transmitted from hand contact…and if someone in front of me is obviously sneezing and coughing into their hands; I have actually found myself shaking it anyway!! I’ll wipe my hand off on my clothes and just don’t touch my face…; it is gross to even think about for me as I am some what of a germaphobe (not sure thats a word). Anyway I haven’t started reading this thread yet lot’s of posts!
Elizabeth
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LilyM
Guest
You think nothing of a priest sticking his hand into your hand or your mouth after having touched the hands and mouths of most everyone in the congregation before you - and balk at shaking hands with three or four of your neighbours? Which act do you think is TRULY more likely to spread germs?
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LilyM
Guest
You think nothing of a priest sticking his hand into your hand or your mouth after having touched the hands and mouths of most everyone in the congregation before you - and balk at shaking hands with three or four of your neighbours? Which act do you think is TRULY more likely to spread germs?
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Joysong
Guest
Because the weeds of the past have occasionally reared their heads among the wheat, it does not follow that this occurs [present tense] in every Mass. To make your point, you use a gross misrepresentation that does not serve any real purpose other than division. One might think that Christ’s words, “I am with you ALWAYS,” are a lie?
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