What do Protestant really believe about the Catholic Church?

[Augustinian]

It is a shame men of great caliber did not sit in that Holy See 500 years ago.

Popes from 500 years ago had a different set of challenges than do popes in the current era.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

It is a shame men of great caliber did not sit in that Holy See 500 years ago.

Popes from 500 years ago had a different set of challenges than do popes in the current era.

Yes, they did, and some were simply not up to the task. A few others were just corrupt.
That is not a knock on the Catholic Church or its members today, or even the laity then, anymore than the current scandal is.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Ours are on terrific terms , they even share meals. Their head sits with our clergy for carols and she is female. Granted her fine singers participate in the multi denomination carols in the Cathedral.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, I thank God everyday for the great recent popes such as John XXIII, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. It is a shame men of great caliber did not sit in that Holy See 500 years ago.

St. Pope Pius V sat in the Holy See starting in 1566, which is approximately 500 years ago.

While some of the other Popes around that era were clunkers, we also had several Popes who presided over the Council of Trent, Pope Sixtus V who fought corruption (though he levied lots of taxes), Pope Gregory XIII who gave us the Gregorian calendar, and Pope Julius II who supervised the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica and commissioned the Sistine Chapel ceiling and other work by Michelangelo and Raphael. Although these men might not be venerated as saints and some of them may have had personal flaws, these are decent achievements.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Yes, I thank God everyday for the great recent popes such as John XXIII, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. It is a shame men of great caliber did not sit in that Holy See 500 years ago.

St. Pope Pius V sat in the Holy See starting in 1566, which is approximately 500 years ago.

While some of the other Popes around that era were clunkers, we also had several Popes who presided over the Council of Trent, Pope Sixtus V who fought corruption (though he levied lots of taxes), Pope Gregory XIII who gave us the Gregorian calendar, and Pope Julius II who supervised the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica and commissioned the Sistine Chapel ceiling and other work by Michelangelo and Raphael. Although these men might not be venerated as saints and some of them may have had personal flaws, these are decent achievements.

Thanks for that. I am aware of many good and decent popes, good Christian men. I think it is possible to distinguish between them and the “clunkers”.

 

[Augustinian]

St. Pope Pius V sat in the Holy See starting in 1566, which is approximately 500 years ago.

While some of the other Popes around that era were clunkers

Even the popes who are considered “clunkers” today, had their triumphs and high points.

Alexander VI is considered a “bad pope” today; and its a fact that he fathered many children out of wedlock. Yet, his accomplishments included demarkation of the overseas territories of Spain and Portugal, helping to avoid war between these major powers, as well as returning law and order to the city of Rome, successfully taking a hard line against the criminal element in the Eternal City at the beginning of his reign.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

So it IS Religious and about the Church?

Does the Catholic Church teach opposition to religious liberty? If so, where is it in the CCC?

Liberty doesn’t mean one can do whatever one wants with no consequences to one’s actions.

Besides

If I can give it, I have a requirement to give a response when the opportunity presents itself.

consider THIS response and link provided

I’ve often used Ez 3:17… as an example. Eg. HERE and in the context I explained why .

It fits with the article I linked to, from the NCRegister

JonNC:

Staying away from unity is a mutual sin, including the Bishop of Rome.

Crossing out truth doesn’t change it.

sedition, schism. dissension, heresy, dividing into sects, are all condemned activities as are those who are in those sins.

Popes have been the ones to initiate and reach out to the divided to come back to complete unity… If the divided choose to remain divided then that is on them.

JonNC:

Are you aware of the fact that others, particularly communions who share a strong belief and practice in word and sacrament with the Roman type of Catholics, that same desire for unity?
Yes, I thank God everyday for the great recent popes such as John XXIII, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. It is a shame men of great caliber did not sit in that Holy See 500 years ago.

I posted what the pope wrote 500 yrs ago. I thought he was extremely kind in his discourse to Luther.

 

[JonNC]

Liberty doesn’t mean one can do whatever one wants with no consequences to one’s actions.

Well, of course. For example, it is not religious liberty to kill someone because they practice religion differently, or human sacrifice.

sedition, schism. dissension, heresy, dividing into sects, are all condemned activities as are those who are in those sins.

Indeed, and both side share the blame.

I posted what the pope wrote 500 yrs ago. I thought he was extremely kind in his discourse to Luther.

Here is what Luther wrote to Pope Leo X.
https://www.bartleby.com/36/6/1.html

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Liberty doesn’t mean one can do whatever one wants with no consequences to one’s actions.

Well, of course. For example, it is not religious liberty to kill someone because they practice religion differently, or human sacrifice.

True

sedition, schism. dissension, heresy, dividing into sects, are all condemned activities as are those who are in those sins.

JonNC:

Indeed, and both side share the blame.

When once those who go off the rails come back on the rails, there still is one side who is officially in charge.

I posted what the pope wrote 500 yrs ago. I thought he was extremely kind in his discourse to Luther.

JonNC:

Here is what Luther wrote to Pope Leo X.
Letter of Martin Luther to Pope Leo X. Luther, Martin. 1909-14. Concerning Christian Liberty. The Harvard Classics

And as I previously posted, and adding to it the issue of liberty,

liberty has limits which we both agree

AND once everyone catches their breath

Luther’s errors were calmly listed HERE
Why Luther was excommunicted HERE and it was done respectfully

 

[ltwin]

WE don’t have your evangelical traditions.

Yes, you do. LOL. And it’s not just Hillsong Church–which would kind of be a low-brow, commercialized type of evangelicalism. Besides that, you have the full range of evangelical Protestantism that we have in the US.

You guys were a British colony, and evangelicalism is not just an American thing–its an Anglo-American thing. By the time the British colonized Australia, evangelicalism was firmly established within British Protestantism, including within the Anglican Church. The Anglican Diocese of Sydney is a good example of evangelicalism.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

We don’t have the american evangelical traditions. We might have new evangelical traditions emerging in the last decade or two, that approach the American style, its a new era. Most tiny country places have an Anglican or Uniting church that operates dating from almost Federation. They are lovely and much like an English tv James Harriot era.
Being a British colony till federation meant little here given most of the colony was convicts and a good smattering of European Catholic immigrants. They were pretty rebellious against the ruling powers, which is how we got Eureka Stockade.
Thats what I meant. The gospel music, all that type of thing. The preaching , the tv pastor celebrities, etc. We are a staid conservative religious community, even in our Anglican and Uniting churches.

I have been to both, and been to USA and seen the difference. Even Catholic Mass in USA is much more energetic. I attended a wonderful Spanish Catholic Mass in Arlington with a few people who then profusely apologised to me for thinking I would find it all offensive or a bit too much, compared to what they attend when in Australia. I loved it!

 

[ltwin]

Thats what I meant. The gospel music, all that type of thing. The preaching , the tv pastor celebrities, etc.

Well, that’s a bit simplistic even for American evangelicalism, which has always been diverse. There are many different “evangelical” styles. But I take your point.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

ok let me say loud, enthusiastic and what we would call contemporary, compared with staid, quiet and conservative

 

[ltwin]

Hillsong is one of the Protestant communities in the (other) category

They’re in the Pentecostal category. They are a member church of the Australian Christian Churches, which until a few years ago was called the Assemblies of God in Australia. Despite the name change, they are still part of the worldwide Assemblies of God fellowship, which is Pentecostal.

 

[ltwin]

ok let me say loud, enthusiastic and what we would call contemporary, compared with staid, quiet and conservative

Yeah, understood. It seems people use “evangelical” as a synonym of contemporary quite a bit. But evangelicalism is not the same as “loud, enthusiastic” or contemporary. You can be a “staid, quiet and conservative” Presbyterian or Methodist or Anglican and still be evangelical.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

granted. are you in the states or uk

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Hillsong is one of the Protestant communities in the (other) category

They’re in the Pentecostal category. They are a member church of the Australian Christian Churches, which until a few years ago was called the Assemblies of God in Australia. Despite the name change, they are still part of the worldwide Assemblies of God fellowship, which is Pentecostal.

AND just asking, isn’t it also a variety of Protestant ?.. Assemblies of God | Protestant denomination | Britannica.

 

[ltwin]

AND just asking, isn’t it also a variety of Protestant ?

Yes, it is.

 

[ltwin]

granted. are you in the states or uk

US.

…

 

[William_Scott]

Consider this explanation https://www.catholic.com/qa/does-praying-to-saints-contradict-isaiah-819

Here’s the relevant portion from the link:

Isaiah 8:19 says, “And when they say to you, ‘Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,’ should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?” This is an example of the Bible’s prohibition on necromancy, or communicating with the dead in order to obtain information or knowledge (Deut. 18:11). The Catechism condemns necromancy (CCC 2116). But those who pray to saints ask them to pray for us; they do not use such prayers in order to gather information from the saints.

The first problem is the narrowly tailored definition of communication with the dead provided in the link (and other apologetic articles). Communication for any purpose with the dead (not just communication done to gather information) is clearly condemned in the relevant passages. Further, any reasonable reading of the relevant passages shows that any form of communication with the dead (e.g. not just the classic seance, etc.) is forbidden.

Further, I never found the fact that a certain action (such as necromancy) is officially condemned persuasive as to the question of whether that practice is still permitted/tolerated in an organization (or even endorsed if accomplished in a more acceptable way). For instance, in a non-Roman Catholic Church (such as the one I belong to)–we condemn all kinds of things that we still do (for instance, sin).

That said, saints in heaven aren’t dead. They are more alive than we are.

Was Samuel dead? Was Abraham, Isaac or Jacob dead? According to Christ they were very much alive (although prior to Christ’s passion, resurrection and ascension). Christ’s comment on the living status of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is often cited by Roman Catholic apologists as grounds for praying to the dead.

Pray is to ask. If I ask someone here to pray for me, am I worshiping that person? No. Quite frankly, if I ask someone to pray for me, would I restrict that request to only corrupt individuals here on this earth? No. I’m including the big guns as well already in heaven

I’m sure you would agree that no one has communicated with you/asked you to pray by spiritual/non-physical means. Secondly, it seems that very few prayers to saints are lacking in lengthy statements of praise, trust, etc. I’m certain that when others ask you to pray for them, they don’t spend a lengthy portion of that request offering praises to you, and stating how they entrust their souls, etc. into your hands.

Finally, the absence of any explicit example/model of prayer or request to the spirit of a deceased individual in the New Testament and Old Testament Scriptures (while there are countless prayers offered to God alone) is an elephant in the room that can’t be waived away.