What do Protestant really believe about the Catholic Church?

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All this said, I acknowledge that those believers in Christ (such as myself) who reject the practice of praying to the saints still have plenty of the spirit of necromancy/witchcraft and the spirit of idolatry in our lives and churches via our frequent rebellions against Christ and His Word. As Scripture states: 1 Sam. 15:23 “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry…”

Further, despite my fundamental disagreement on this matter (and some other issues), I do think very highly of many things that my RC brethren have been faithful in–and I know a number of RC brothers and sisters who no doubt put my walk of faith to shame.
 
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p.s. I would add that the prayers to the saints is likewise lacking in the Deuterocanonical texts. The prayers for the dead as offered in 2 Maccabees is a separate question that I’m not addressing here. Further, I have no doubt that the saints in heaven are praying for the Church on earth–but that is a separate question from whether we can communicate with/make requests to the spirits of departed brothers and sisters. I will have to excuse myself from this thread for the next couple of weeks (because of tight schedule). I hope everyone has a blessed Advent Season.
 
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Have a blessed advent season, William_Scott.

As you know, Jesus told a parable about speaking to the dead. It is called “The Rich Man and Lazarus”. In the parable, the rich man cries out to Lazarus after death just as Lazarus had cried out to the rich man while both were alive.

Please remember that much of the wisdom and content of the Scriptures is not lying on the surface but must be accessed like hidden treasures through meditation and contemplation.
Code: 
  if you seek it [Wisdom] like silver 
  and search for it as for hidden treasures, 
   then you will understand the fear of the LORD 
  and find the knowledge of God.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Pr 2:4–5). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

…meditate day and night (Joshua 1:8, Psalm 1)
 
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Stay blessed, William_Scott.

Please remember that the Scripture never teaches “sola Scriptura”. Please have an ear and hear what the Spirit says to the Churches. Many miracles have resulted from prayers to the saints.
 
edward_george1 said:
“Protestants” is a very broad category, and so you’ll not find one answer that covers all of them. There’s a wide spectrum of beliefs and types of beliefs among Protestants, and even within one denomination, one finds a wide variance of opinion… …
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This (and the rest of the post) is the best answer to the original question at the top of this thread.
 
William_Scott said:
[snip for space]

Finally, the absence of any explicit example/model of prayer or request to the spirit of a deceased individual in the New Testament and Old Testament Scriptures (while there are countless prayers offered to God alone) is an elephant in the room that can’t be waived away.
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Ever read the episode of the transfiguration of Jesus? Who was present?
  1. Jesus
  2. Peter
  3. James
  4. John
  5. Moses
  6. Elijah
And

God the Father.

Quite a conversation took place. Peter even wanted to st up 3 tents (tabernacles) 1 for Jesus, 1 for Moses, and 1 for Elijah.

Those 2 OT fellows, that represented the law and the prophets, were there plane as day, and visible for all to see.
Point being, they weren’t dead, as we understand dead. Their souls were alive and fully aware.

then (Rev 5:8) and the 24 elders in heaven offering the prayers to God of the saints.
 
Hello Steve-b, I’m able to squeeze in one last post. I am aware of this being used as evidence. However, I do not find this to be a strong example to rest the case of praying to saints. Christ alone communicated with His creations — Elijah and Moses — and it was in the context of a unique vision. The transfiguration is hardly representative of typical communication with the spirits of the saints via the act of prayer.

As to Elijah and Moses being alive—I have no dispute, the same was true of Samuel.

As for the Elders in Revelations—there is no indication that they are offering prayers that had been offered to themselves. Nor is there any evidence that the prayers of saints referred to were the prayers of deceased saints who were praying in response to requests they received from Christians on earth. While the prayers of departed saints may be included in the prayers referenced in this passage, the Scripture here and elsewhere uses “saints” (or, holy/sanctified ones) in a broader sense that includes all believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, this passage is also very weak grounds for claiming any Scriptural example of or reference to prayers to saints.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Have a great Christmas and thanks for the discussion.
 
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William_Scott said:
As for the Elders in Revelations—there is no indication that they are offering prayers that had been offered to themselves. Nor is there any evidence that the prayers of saints referred to were the prayers of deceased saints who were praying in response to requests they received from Christians on earth. While the prayers of departed saints may be included in the prayers referenced in this passage, the Scripture here and elsewhere uses “saints” (or, holy/sanctified ones) in a broader sense that includes all believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, this passage is also very weak grounds for claiming any Scriptural example of or reference to prayers to saints.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Have a great Christmas and thanks for the discussion.
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If they(the elders) had no connection to the prayers they were offering, why are they even handling these prayers? And think about prayers. They are mental or vocal requests by all the people praying. If they are going straight to God why are the elders even involved?

BTW, presbuteros translated as elder, is where we get the name priest from Where in the New Testament Are "Priests" Mentioned? | Catholic Answers.
 
I’m not a Christian so I don’t really have a dog in this discussion but may I ask…
The Catholic Church uses Tradition as well as scripture (and the Magesterium). When is the earliest mention of praying to the Saints?

I’ve always found it a beautiful tradition (small t) and don’t understand the Protestant objection other than a differing interpretation of scripture. It seems that if the Protestants wanted to continue it they would have accepted the scriptural references that the Catholics use so,for what reason did they want it stopped?

I’ve heard so many Catholics talk about how they have been inspired by or had their faith strengthened due to Saints that unless Protestants had a strong reason for rejecting it would have instead been encouraging it. Can anyone help me understand better? If this not appropriate for here, please ignore…
 
Pattylt said:
I’m not a Christian so I don’t really have a dog in this discussion but may I ask…
The Catholic Church uses Tradition as well as scripture (and the Magesterium). When is the earliest mention of praying to the Saints?

I’ve always found it a beautiful tradition (small t) and don’t understand the Protestant objection other than a differing interpretation of scripture. It seems that if the Protestants wanted to continue it they would have accepted the scriptural references that the Catholics use so,for what reason did they want it stopped?

I’ve heard so many Catholics talk about how they have been inspired by or had their faith strengthened due to Saints that unless Protestants had a strong reason for rejecting it would have instead been encouraging it. Can anyone help me understand better? If this not appropriate for here, please ignore…
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Short answer What is the biblical reason Catholics pray to saints for intercession? | Catholic Answers
 
I’m sorry, my questions weren’t very clear.
What is the earliest attested occurrence of prayer to a Saint outside scripture.
Why do Protestants object to it.

Edited for clarity
 
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Pattylt said:
Why do Protestants object to it.
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Reasons range from it’s not spelled out explicitly in Scripture (as in Matthew 45:2 says "And Jesus said to His disciples, “Amen, amen I say to you, you can pray to the Saints in heaven.” And yes, I know Matthew 45 doesn’t exist), to erroneously believing it’s necromancy.
 
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steve-b said:
If they(the elders) had no connection to the prayers they were offering, why are they even handling these prayers? And think about prayers. They are mental or vocal requests by all the people praying. If they are going straight to God why are the elders even involved?
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I’ll squeeze in one last, final post. The elders’ connection to the prayers would seem to be similar to the connection of the angels in Revelations to the wrath of God that they poured out of their vessels onto the earth. The angels were not the party to whom the wrath of God was directed, but were simply administering it. Likewise it appears that the Elders were not the party to whom the prayers of God’s people were directed, but they were simply administering prayers made to God by His people (e.g. Psalm 58:8b) as part of their spiritual duties before the Heavenly Throne.

In any event, I do not believe this passage can be relied on as evidence from the Scriptural record of the validity of prayers to saints.
steve-b said:
BTW, presbuteros translated as elder, is where we get the name priest from Where in the New Testament Are "Priests" Mentioned? | Catholic Answers.
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I am aware of the alternate translations of the term presbyter, and I am fine with use of term “priest” being applied to a New Covenant presbyter.
steve-b said:
Outside of scripture, here is an example. What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers
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The Scriptural examples–the cited Psalms are broad invocations for all creation to praise God, not only the heavenly host, but also the non-living creation, like the “sun” and “moon”. These do not serve as grounds for invoking the aid of specific angels or saints.

As for the extra-scriptural sources, we do not have any evidence of prayers to the saints until the 4th century century (or the 3rd century at the earliest). And the records from the Church Fathers do not contain or approvingly reference prayers to Mary or other saints until the 4th century. Methodius is cited in the link, but scholarship indicates that these words regarding Mary are more accurately traced to the 9th century. Cyprian is cited on the link, but his is simply a request to those present to continue to pray for the Church after their death (as I am quite confident that my brothers and sisters who have departed from this world are faithful to do).

The statements by the fathers and writings preceding Cyprian are likewise not indications of prayers to saints, but additional examples of the largely uncontroversial belief that the departed saints are praying for those of us here on earth. Also, when the context is taken into account, the citation from the Shepherd of Hermas likewise provides no ground for the practice of praying to angels (or saints).
 
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I’m not coming at this from a knee-jerk anti-Roman Catholic standpoint. While I’m Protestant (if we’re going to go around putting labels on ourselves 🙂 ), I have a high view of Tradition, Sacraments, etc. and I have a great respect for the RC faithfulness to Scripture and Tradition on birth control and other important issues in our day. Have a blessed Christmas season all.
 
guanophore said:
What keeps you from being Catholic yourself?
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Hello Guanophore, the most significant reason is the affirmation of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church required for (good faith) entry into the Roman Catholic Church. Despite my agreement with the RCC on many issues, there are other issues where I have fundamental disagreement on the basis of Scripture and Tradition with the RCC (for instance, prayers to saints and angels). Thanks for the question and have a blessed Advent Season. Unfortunately, I probably won’t be able to provide any follow up discussion at this time…
 
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William_Scott said:
The elders’ connection to the prayers would seem to be similar to the connection of the angels in Revelations to the wrath of God that they poured out of their vessels onto the earth. The angels were not the party to whom the wrath of God was directed, but were simply administering it. Likewise it appears that the Elders were not the party to whom the prayers of God’s people were directed, but they were simply administering prayers made to God by His people (e.g. Psalm 58:8b) as part of their spiritual duties before the Heavenly Throne.

I do not believe this passage can be relied on as evidence from the Scriptural record of the validity of prayers to saints.

The Scriptural examples–the cited Psalms are broad invocations for all creation to praise God, not only the heavenly host, but also the non-living creation, like the “sun” and “moon”. These do not serve as grounds for invoking the aid of specific angels or saints.

As for the extra-scriptural sources, we do not have any evidence of prayers to the saints until the 4th century century (or the 3rd century at the earliest). And the records from the Church Fathers do not contain or approvingly reference prayers to Mary or other saints until the 4th century. Methodius is cited in the link, but scholarship indicates that these words regarding Mary are more accurately traced to the 9th century. Cyprian is cited on the link, but his is simply a request to those present to continue to pray for the Church after their death (as I am quite confident that my brothers and sisters who have departed from this world are faithful to do).

The statements by the fathers and writings preceding Cyprian are likewise not indications of prayers to saints, but additional examples of the largely uncontroversial belief that the departed saints are praying for those of us here on earth. Also, when the context is taken into account, the citation from the Shepherd of Hermas likewise provides no ground for the practice of praying to angels (or saints).

I’m not coming at this from a knee-jerk anti-Roman Catholic standpoint. While I’m Protestant (if we’re going to go around putting labels on ourselves 🙂 ), I have a high view of Tradition, Sacraments, etc. and I have a great respect for the RC faithfulness to Scripture and Tradition on birth control and other important issues in our day. Have a blessed Christmas season all.
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Praying for each other is intercessory prayer.

Re: intercessory prayer Intercessory Power | Catholic Answers

Excerpt:
Earliest in the field was the cult of martyrs, the heroes of the faith whom Christians held to be already in God’s presence and glorious in his sight. At first it took the form of the reverent preservation of their relics and the annual celebration of their ‘birthday.’ From this it was a short step, since they were now with Christ in glory, to seeking their help and prayers, and in the third century evidence for the belief in their intercessory power accumulates" (Early Christian Doctrines [1979], 490).

intercession can’t be discounted
 
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William_Scott said:
The angels were not the party to whom the wrath of God was directed, but were simply administering it.
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This is a very interesting comparison, and I think bears witness. In the same way, our prayers are directed toward God, but facilitated by the saints. And speaking of bearing witness, Heb. 12:1 comes to mind. After an entire chapter devoted to the exploits of the saints who have gone before us to their heavenly reward, it is written;

“12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us…” Heb. 12:1 .

One of the first hermeneutical principles I was taught was “when you see a therefore, look and see what it is there for”. In this case, we are admonished to persevere in faith based upon the perseverance of the saints who preceded us. We are reminded that we are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”. This could be translated martryrs, though not all in the description died for their faith. It is notable that they are described in the present tense as witnesses by whom we are presently surrounded, as if to say that we are in communion with those who have passed on before us, and they also witness us as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

This is the basis for the communion of saints, that those in Christ live forever, and that even death cannot separate either of us from the love of God, or from one another.
 
Bishop Sheen: “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."
 
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