What do Protestant really believe about the Catholic Church?

[AD75]

I’m just curious if anyone has mentioned the early Church fathers and saints like St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Jerome, St. Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr and the like when talking about the Catholic Church…There’s a whole history and tradition that dates back LONG before Luther and the Protestant Reformation (and even the Nicaean Councils), but no one talks about this much…There are many writings, though, if one is interested to know more…If more people knew the REAL history of the Church (and the connections of those early Church fathers to the Apostles and those who knew Jesus), maybe there wouldn’t be so much animosity…The only way to counter misinformation is with truth in a loving way…

 

[William_Scott]

Thanks for your message guanophore. I agree that those who have gone before us in the faith are a great cloud of witnesses presently, and that we have real communion with these saints through the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, we have no indication from Scripture or the first centuries of the Church (as noted above) that we may invoke a deceased brother or sister in Christ or otherwise speak with or to them. Rather, I would argue that the opposite is the case per the Scriptural commands to never attempt to communicate with those who have passed from this life, whether they are the souls of brothers and sisters who are alive with God (as Abraham and Samuel) or the souls of those eternally separated from God.

Likewise, we are in communion with all the saints presently on earth through the Holy Spirit, the vast majority of whom we will never communicate with (or have the opportunity to communicate with) in this life. I probably won’t have an opportunity to follow up until after Christmas, so we’ll have to agree to disagree at this time. Have a blessed Christmas.

 

[William_Scott]

Excerpt:
Earliest in the field was the cult of martyrs, the heroes of the faith whom Christians held to be already in God’s presence and glorious in his sight. At first it took the form of the reverent preservation of their relics and the annual celebration of their ‘birthday.’ From this it was a short step, since they were now with Christ in glory, to seeking their help and prayers, and in the third century evidence for the belief in their intercessory power accumulates" (Early Christian Doctrines [1979], 490).

intercession can’t be discounted

Hello steve-b, I agree that the cult of the martrys assisted in bringing about the initiation of or normalization of a practice that is absent from the writings of the Apostles or the Old Testament Prophets, namely, invoking the souls of our deceased brothers and sisters. As the quote you provided indicates, the evidence is that the practice is a later innovation and was not practiced by any of the pillars of our faith, e.g. St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John, etc. With the many prayers and allusions to prayer the Apostles and Old Testament prophets have left us in their writings, it seems remarkable to think that the invoking of the godly deceased was for them an accepted and utilized practice (let alone a central feature of prayer life as it is for many in this day) when they did not leave a single example of its use in their writings.

Rather, the only references in Scripture to communications with the unseen souls of brothers and sisters that have passed from this life are exclusively negative.

All that said, even the Calvinist John Owen in his commentary on Hebrews 12:1 speaks to the shared intimate walk and encouragement we have from the blessed departed (without any need to invoke or communicate directly with their souls):

For in the whole verse the apostle doth, as it were, represent believers in their profession as striving for victory as upon a theater. Christ sits at the head or end of it, as the great agonothetes, the judge and rewarder of those that strive lawfully, and acquit themselves by perseverance unto the end. All the saints departed divinely testified unto stand and sit on every side, looking on, and encouraging us in our course; which was wont to be a mighty provocation unto men to put forth the utmost of their strength in their public contests for victory.
…
For when a great multitude do encompass men, in any cause, drawing about them, and near unto them, to give them encouragement, they cannot but greatly countenance and further them in their way. So doth this cloud of witnesses them that do believe.

As I noted in my post to guanophore, I likely won’t be able to follow up until after Christmas. Have a blessed Christmas season.

 

[EvangAlived]

What keeps you from being Catholic yourself?

Without being cheeky, nor cruel, but simply succinct, and in charity (1 Cor. 13), my answer is Roman Catholicism itself in its theology, faith (pistis/fides; such as ‘immortal soul/spirit theology’, ‘eternal torment in hellfire theology’, ‘papal see’, ‘immaculate conception dogma’, ‘perpetual virginity’, ‘assumption’, ‘theotokos’, ‘transubstantiation’, ‘sunday sacredness’, etc. (there’s literally over 100 things)) and practice (praxis; such as the ‘mass’).

It does not keep God’s Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) as Jesus said to do (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6), but substitutes another law, it’s own law, in the Law of God’s place, as may be seen here (as was foretold, Daniel 7:25) - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

Roman Catholicism (“ism”) is clearly identified in Daniel 7, 8, 11, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and Revelation 13 and 17 and is one of the reasons I was called out of and left Roman Catholicism, after 30 years of having been born into and raised in it, confirmed, etc., worked in a specialized ministry thereof briefly (as EWTN stated, ‘experts in their field’), and whose family still work with the local bishop in the city in which I reside presently, etc.

It was/is the apostasy (the “falling away”) that was prophesied to take place.

The Truth has set me forever free of said system. I have found, by the grace of God, the Truth, Revelation 12:17, 14:6-12.

 

[guanophore]

Rather, I would argue that the opposite is the case per the Scriptural commands to never attempt to communicate with those who have passed from this life, whether they are the souls of brothers and sisters who are alive with God (as Abraham and Samuel) or the souls of those eternally separated from God.

There are no scriptural prohibitions with regard to the Church. Jesus clearly taught that those who are in Him will live for ever. Nothing can separate them from Him, just as nothing can separate those who are still in this life from Him. We are all One Body in Christ. There is no reason that we would ask our siblings in Christ for our prayers, yet when they go home to Him, stop asking their prayers.

Of course, prayers to those souls separated from God, or other principalities and powers in the heavenly places (demons) are inappropriate.

Likewise, we are in communion with all the saints presently on earth through the Holy Spirit, the vast majority of whom we will never communicate with (or have the opportunity to communicate with) in this life.

It is not good to put limits on God, who transcends time and space. Catholics pray for others all around the world, and ask for their prayers also.

I wonder if the man from Macedonia that Paul saw in a vision was an actual person.

Acts 16:9 During the night Paul had a vision: there stood a man of Macedonia pleading with him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.”

Clearly God could communicate the desire of Cornelius to Peter, so that Peter would go to his home and tell him the Gospel.

The history of our faith is full of these kinds of visions, related to those still on this earth, and those who are not.

 

[guanophore]

As Catholics we observe Lex Orandi lex credendi, meaning, we pray as we believe. The prayers to the saints have been included since the earliest liturgies because the Church has always prayed as she believed.

practice that is absent from the writings of the Apostles or the Old Testament Prophets, namely, invoking the souls of our deceased brothers and sisters.

It is likely absent from your OT prophets if you are missing Maccabees. I am not sure what you mean by “invoking”?

You seem to believe that all practices to be espoused by Christians would be found in the Scriptures. The Scriptures were never intended to be a full compendium of the faith.

the evidence is that the practice is a later innovation and was not practiced by any of the pillars of our faith, e.g. St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John, etc.

Actually, the contents of the liturgies they used are not enumerated until the second century. To say that the pillars of our faith did not practice one thing or another because it is not explicitly detailed in Scripture seems like quite a stretch. There are many important elements of our faith that are not found in the pages, such as the word Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Theotokos, and dyothelitism.

Why to Christians celebrate Christmas? That is not in the Bible either. Jesus was born on a certain day, of course, but we have no idea which day it was. The date chosen for the celebration of Jesus birthday is actually much later than the practice of asking intercession of the saints.

Why do we worship on Sundays? There is no proscriptive for it.

 

[guanophore]

With the many prayers and allusions to prayer the Apostles and Old Testament prophets have left us in their writings, it seems remarkable to think that the invoking of the godly deceased was for them an accepted and utilized practice (let alone a central feature of prayer life as it is for many in this day) when they did not leave a single example of its use in their writings.

Since you don’t have Maccabees, you are missing one example, but I think the primary reason that the evidence is light is because they did not have the understanding of these eternal matters that was brought by Christ. There were Holy Ones who experienced visions of heaven and conversed with angels (like Daniel) but the clarity to understanding the state of the soul after this life and the nature of the communion of saints was not understood until after Christ.

The righteous dead went to a place of “rest” called the bosom of Abraham. This is where Jesus preached the gospel to them after His death on the cross. They were imprisoned, since the Gates of Heaven were still closed. After the Ascension, the Gates of Heaven were opened, so that righteous souls could immediately be in His presence.

Rather, the only references in Scripture to communications with the unseen souls of brothers and sisters that have passed from this life are exclusively negative.

No one can “see” a soul in the first place, so I am not sure what you mean by “unseen souls”. I think you are referring to those who have gone before us. Do you think that the appearance of Moses and Elijah to Jesus is “negative”?

Do you think the prayers of the saints taken to God by an angel are “negative”?

If it was not common for communication with the unseen to occur, why did the believers in Acts think that Peter’s angel was at the door, rather than Peter?

Acts 12:15 15 They said to her, “You are out of your mind!” But she insisted that it was so. They said, “It is his angel.”

It made more sense to them that Peter’s guardian angel would appear as they prayed for him, than he would physically arrive at the door!

Hebrews 12:1 speaks to the shared intimate walk and encouragement we have from the blessed departed (without any need to invoke or communicate directly with their souls):

Have you ever had an intimate walk and had encouragement without any communication? That doesn’t even make common sense!

 

[guanophore]

Roman Catholicism itself in its theology, faith (pistis/fides; such as ‘immortal soul/spirit theology’, ‘eternal torment in hellfire theology’, ‘papal see’, ‘immaculate conception dogma’, ‘perpetual virginity’, ‘assumption’, ‘theotokos’, ‘transubstantiation’, ‘sunday sacredness’, etc. (there’s literally over 100 things)) and practice (praxis; such as the ‘mass’).

That sounds like quite a lot! You realize, do you not, that nothing you have mentioned here is “Roman Catholic” per se? All of these beliefs and practices exist in each of the Churches planted by the Apostles. They are all things we share with the Eastern Orthodox, many of who have no love lost on “Rome”.

It does not keep God’s Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) as Jesus said to do (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6), but substitutes another law, it’s own law, in the Law of God’s place, as may be seen here (as was foretold, Daniel 7:25) - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

I think you lost me here. Are you saying that the CC has “substituted” the 10 commandments? That they are not the same 10 commandments that are in Exodus? Perhaps you think this because they are arranged differently.

It was/is the apostasy (the “falling away”) that was prophesied to take place.

When did this happen? And do you believe that all the other Apostolic Churches that espouse the beliefs and practices to which you object also apostacized? If so, when did the Eastern Orthodox depart from the One Faith?

I was not able to access anything on the link you posted about the “falling away”. I am not sure what this means.

The Truth has set me forever free of said system.

I am also curious what you mean by “system” here?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Excerpt:
Earliest in the field was the cult of martyrs, the heroes of the faith whom Christians held to be already in God’s presence and glorious in his sight. At first it took the form of the reverent preservation of their relics and the annual celebration of their ‘birthday.’ From this it was a short step, since they were now with Christ in glory, to seeking their help and prayers, and in the third century evidence for the belief in their intercessory power accumulates" (Early Christian Doctrines [1979], 490).

intercession can’t be discounted

Hello steve-b, I agree that the cult of the martrys assisted in bringing about the initiation of or normalization of a practice that is absent from the writings of the Apostles or the Old Testament Prophets, namely, invoking the souls of our deceased brothers and sisters. As the quote you provided indicates, the evidence is that the practice is a later innovation and was not practiced by any of the pillars of our faith, e.g. St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John, etc.

Re: the article I quoted above

When it says the belief accumulates in the 3rd century, that does NOT mean the belief began then.

When John writes about the 24 elders (presbuteros) in heaven (Rev 5:8) taking prayers of the saints on earth to God, John is writing about something that is and has already been going on in heaven and on earth.

William_Scott:

Rather, the only references in Scripture to communications with the unseen souls of brothers and sisters that have passed from this life are exclusively negative.

John in writing Revelations makes no mention about the quality or style of prayer being taken by the presbyters to God nor that it is prohibited activity.

William_Scott:

All that said, even the Calvinist John Owen in his commentary on Hebrews 12:1 speaks to the shared intimate walk and encouragement we have from the blessed departed (without any need to invoke or communicate directly with their souls):

May I suggest his commentary doesn’t make the point we’re talking about.

 

[ReadTheBible]

To me there is a huge difference between what I believe about the Catholic Church and what I believe about everyday Catholics. I know many Catholic individuals who I call friends and some are family. I pray that God opens their eyes to the truth about the Catholic Church / Papacy but free will is our ultimate gift from God.

This is what I believe about the Catholic Church / Papacy.

 

[Wannano]

Very fascinating!

 

[JonNC]

Church fathers and saints like St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Jerome, St. Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr and the like when talking about the Catholic Church…

I was taught about Polycarp in Sunday School, and the ECFs at different points in time through college.
And everyone name you mentioned on your short list has a commemoration on the Lutheran calendar.
https://www.lcms.org/worship/church-year/commemorations

 

[Lenten_ashes1]

When i was fundamentalists protestant, I fully believed you all were a billion deceived souls who made demi-Gods out of everyone you liked and focused way too much on relics and hocus pocus.

In retrospect, I can say that stemmed from my own personal interpretation of the scriptures. A very fallible interpretation, I might add.

 

[Fragile]

Some ex-Catholics form the beliefs, or confirm, of Protestants…

 

[JonNC]

When i was fundamentalists protestant, I fully believed you all were a billion deceived souls who made demi-Gods out of everyone you liked and focused way too much on relics and hocus pocus.

In retrospect, I can say that stemmed from my own personal interpretation of the scriptures. A very fallible interpretation, I might add.

Thus the flaw of personal interpretation, which is, in practice, a violation of the principle of sola scriptura. As Martin Chemnitz noted;

This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… We also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church.

 

[ltwin]

It seems that if the Protestants wanted to continue it they would have accepted the scriptural references that the Catholics use so,for what reason did they want it stopped?

Praying to saints, and the early Protestant rejection of that practice, must be understood within the context of the entire “cult of the saints” that was a major feature of medieval religion. Christians in medieval Europe did not only pray to saints but they made images of them, which they made offerings to and lit candles to and made pilgrimage to. They kept and visited relics of the saints, which they believed could cure sickness and earn indulgences which could lessen their time in purgatory.

To many early Protestants, this was all superstition and most harmful to the uneducated people who they felt were being led away from faith in Christ by traditional religion, which instead taught them to put their trust in false avenues of salvation.

 

[KevinK]

They kept and visited relics of the saints, which they believed could cure sickness and earn indulgences which could lessen their time in purgatory.

To many early Protestants, this was all superstition

That would appear superstitious to many.

 

[Pattylt]

Thank you, Itwin. I appreciate your response!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Christians in medieval Europe did not only pray to saints but they made images of them, which they made offerings to and lit candles to and made pilgrimage to. They kept and visited relics of the saints, which they believed could cure sickness and earn indulgences which could lessen their time in purgatory.

Catholics still do all this stuff as optional private devotions, except that the indulgences associated with saints these days are very limited and not generally associated with saint relics. Instead they are associated with saying certain prayers, doing certain things on a saint’s feast day like saying the Collect prayer (a prayer to God asking that He grant that we imitate the virtue of the saint) or visiting a church named after the saint, or participating in a Mass honoring a newly canonized or newly beatified saint.

 

[CradleRC58]

Bishop Sheen: “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

Bears repeating.