What do Protestant really believe about the Catholic Church?

[ltwin]

Catholics still do all this stuff as optional private devotions

Interesting.

Thank you, Itwin. I appreciate your response!

Another thing that gets to the heart of the matter is that many Protestants are opposed to praying to saints because it makes the saint the object of intercession. The entire Reformation, from the point of view of Protestants, was an attempt to offer a “christological corrective” to medieval Catholicism by placing Christ back at the center of theology and worship. As it relates to prayer and intercession, Christ becomes the sole focus of intercession because his intercession is vital to the economy of grace and is the foundation of our own prayers. We know that the Father hears our prayers because Christ continually intercedes for us.

Because Christ is the focus of and assurance that our prayers are heard and efficacious, Protestants don’t really grasp the logic of praying to saints, which is built on the idea that saints are already in heaven (and by default are more righteous and closer to God) and can expedite our prayers through their own intercession.

For Catholics, this is all part of the communion of saints (which Protestants also believe in), but Protestants don’t see it in this way. There is a difference between someone (in heaven for example) praying to God on your behalf and you praying to someone else (in heaven for example) asking them to intercede for you.

 

[Pattylt]

For Catholics, this is all part of the communion of saints (which Protestants also believe in), but Protestants don’t see it in this way. There is a difference between someone (in heaven for example) praying to God on your behalf and you praying to someone else (in heaven for example) asking them to intercede for you

Again, thank you!
To clarify, Protestants agree that the Saints can pray for you but you shouldn’t ask those Saints to pray for you? It’s the asking that’s at issue?

 

[ltwin]

To clarify, Protestants agree that the Saints can pray for you but you shouldn’t ask those Saints to pray for you? It’s the asking that’s at issue?

Yes.

A Protestant would want to find Scriptural warrant. We know from Zech. 1:12 that the angels intercede for us, and it would make sense for this to also apply to the dead. However, there is only explicit testimony of this from 2 Maccabees 15:14 – which Protestants consider part of the Apocrypha and therefore not authoritative for doctrine. So, yes, Protestants can grant that there is a high probability that the saints pray for us.

Yet, this is no where near a command from Scripture that we invoke the intercession of saints. Since there is no clear command or sanction, it is very difficult for most Protestants to pray to saints in confidence and faith–which defeats the purpose since prayer should be done in faith.

 

[Pattylt]

Thanks for such a complete answer. I’ve noticed that several Catholic converts from Protestant religions have discussed the difficulty of praying to Mary and other Saints. This clarifies the reason.

 

[JonNC]

Knowing that the Saints pray for us, it seems reasonable for us to ask God to hear their prayers as well as ours.

 

[steve-b]

[snip for space]

Roman Catholicism (“ism”) is clearly identified in Daniel 7, 8, 11, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and Revelation 13 and 17 and is one of the reasons I was called out of and left Roman Catholicism, after 30 years of having been born into and raised in it, confirmed, etc.,

The Truth has set me forever free of said system. I have found, by the grace of God, the Truth, Revelation 12:17, 14:6-12.

Be sure to (open all links on the page.)

Your disagreements and waking away, mirrors Our Lord’s own “disciples” (not the 12) in what they said and did.

THEY WALKED AWAY FROM HIM for context of that HERE

AND

Re: The HS. Jesus makes this point.

Jn 16:12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come . 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. "

Combine that with

Jn 17:20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. "

IOW,

1. the HS doesn’t lead/guide anyone into division from the Church Jesus established on Peter and those in union with Peter. The Catholic Church

Who divides? Satan divides.

Re: Jesus and union?

1. The union Jesus wants is PERFECT UNION , ( Jn 17:23) just as He and the Father are PERFECTLY ONE that’s what He wants for His Church.

Re: division?

All the divisions/ sedition/ dissensions/ schisms/sects/ διχοστασίαι we see from the Catholic Church that is all condemned.

Where is that taught?

That same Greek word διχοστασίαι is used in both Rm 16:17-21 & Gal 5:19-21 for division / dissension / sects

Note the consequences for the one who dies in that sin? (Gal 5:21) “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. “

It doesn’t get worse than that. Since the HS inspired those scriptures to be written, we know that it came from Jesus

 

[steve-b]

Pattylt:

To clarify, Protestants agree that the Saints can pray for you but you shouldn’t ask those Saints to pray for you? It’s the asking that’s at issue?

Yes.

A Protestant would want to find Scriptural warrant. We know from Zech. 1:12 that the angels intercede for us, and it would make sense for this to also apply to the dead. However, there is only explicit testimony of this from 2 Maccabees 15:14 – which Protestants consider part of the Apocrypha and therefore not authoritative for doctrine. So, yes, Protestants can grant that there is a high probability that the saints pray for us.

Yet, this is no where near a command from Scripture that we invoke the intercession of saints. Since there is no clear command or sanction, it is very difficult for most Protestants to pray to saints in confidence and faith–which defeats the purpose since prayer should be done in faith

It needs to be said,

Re: scripture, & scripture as sole source of truth,

The NT was written in, by, for, the Catholic Church, considering that ALL the writers of the NT were already in the Church they were writing to and for. The Church came first… THEN came the writings.

AND

scripture says “the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth”. So, since there is no “bible” at the time of that writing, the NT scripture as it would become, validates The Church’s authority to teach on matters of faith and morals.. Again, That is speaking of the Catholic Church

Because

The ONLY Church that is there is The Church Jesus built on Peter and those in union with Peter. The Catholic Church, we then can’t ignore the fact, The Church is there before a single word is written of the NT. The Church who Pope Francis today is 266th successor of St Peter in Rome at the helm.

AND

As the apostle also taught, we are to hold fast the following AND (note: neither is “alone”) AND The Church teaches intercession of the saints.

 

[Savage92]

In all honesty most Protestants don’t seem to know much about the Catholic Church aside from that you worship Mary, believe in salvation by works and of course how the Church is the bad spot of all history

So in truth nothing, listen to James White or John MacArthur’s descriptions sometimes and you’ll have an idea of the kind of info protestants get

 

[Fragile]

James and John will give you the anti-Catholic Evangelical slant on things, hardly what all Protestants believe.

Note: Not to be confused w/the biblical James and John.

 

[TC3033]

In all honesty, I didn’t know those were even things until I came here.

And in truth, I have no idea who those two guys are so this non-Catholic doesn’t get any info from there.

In all honesty, the majority of non-Catholics see the Catholic Church as another church down the street full of people trying to get to heaven the best they can.

 

[Savage92]

Well I’m sure it’s not common among all branches of protestantism but I would say it’s fairly normal among Baptists, non-denom and pentacostals

 

[Delphinus]

As a former protestant (Evangelical, pentecostal) the fact that there even exists a church called the “Catholic Church” is barely a blip on the radar. We we aware that Catholics existed, but we knew them as people who were largely uneducated about scripture, rarely cared about discussing their faith, and seemed largely disinterested in spirituality as a whole. In my old denomination we had experienced God in worship and spent our time trying to dig in deeper to scripture and the Holy Spirit to understand more. Me? I dug too deep and became Catholic. : /

Sadly, the Catholics in my area to fit my first impression of them. I’m not in a super great area for Catholic spirituality.

 

[Wannano]

As a former protestant (Evangelical, pentecostal) the fact that there even exists a church called the “Catholic Church” is barely a blip on the radar. We we aware that Catholics existed, but we knew them as people who were largely uneducated about scripture, rarely cared about discussing their faith, and seemed largely disinterested in spirituality as a whole. In my old denomination we had experienced God in worship and spent our time trying to dig in deeper to scripture and the Holy Spirit to understand more. Me? I dug too deep and became Catholic. : /

Sadly, the Catholics in my area to fit my first impression of them. I’m not in a super great area for Catholic spirituality.

Thank you for such an honest evaluation. I think you would speak for the vast majority of the non-Catholics I know, although, I would add that most of us would know someone who is Catholic who would be the exemption to the norm. And usually those do not seem to have a need to castigate the Protestant churches.

 

[TC3033]

I’m non-denominational…I didn’t even realize there was a Catholic vs non-Catholic “thing” until after going to church with my wife a handful of times.

Growing up, I never thought twice about the Catholic church/churches in town. They were just another church of believers down the road.

 

[Delphinus]

I would add that most of us would know someone who is Catholic who would be the exemption to the norm.

Hoping to not appear egotistical here, but that’s generally me. I maintain contacts with my previous church and even the pastors there say they are thrilled at what they are seeing in the church, not filtered through the media. I found as a protestant that those Catholics were usually converts.

I admit, I’m a child of two worlds. I met Jesus as a protestant. I found Him even more as a Catholic…now I feel that I am both. The Catholic church seems to have no room for me because I’m too “out there”…at least in my area that has a Catholic church that preaches homosexuality as something to be embraced and a distant faith that “doesn’t interefere in daily life”

I find myself often visiting the local non-denominational evangelical church on weekend (and got permission to do so from my parish priest!!) in order to hear something approaching sound doctrine (though, they are devoid of the saints, tradition, and most importantly, the Eucharist!). Admittedly it was the priest that steered me towards the local evangelicals because the local parish just didn’t have what I needed (bible studies, worship, prayer, etc) We’re a Mass only church…

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I would add that most of us would know someone who is Catholic who would be the exemption to the norm.

Hoping to not appear egotistical here, but that’s generally me. I maintain contacts with my previous church and even the pastors there say they are thrilled at what they are seeing in the church, not filtered through the media. I found as a protestant that those Catholics were usually converts.

I admit, I’m a child of two worlds. I met Jesus as a protestant. I found Him even more as a Catholic…now I feel that I am both. The Catholic church seems to have no room for me because I’m too “out there”…at least in my area that has a Catholic church that preaches homosexuality as something to be embraced and a distant faith that “doesn’t interefere in daily life”

I find myself often visiting the local non-denominational evangelical church on weekend (and got permission to do so from my parish priest!!) in order to hear something approaching sound doctrine (though, they are devoid of the saints, tradition, and most importantly, the Eucharist!). Admittedly it was the priest that steered me towards the local evangelicals because the local parish just didn’t have what I needed (bible studies, worship, prayer, etc) We’re a Mass only church…

I believe you, from what I have seen Catholic parishes differ greatly. I can’t understand how it can be openly homosexual, I did not know that was even possible.

I am trying not to lose confidence in all churches. I guess they all have strengths and weaknesses.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

SO many non-Catholics and non-practicing Catholics think all Catholics are obsessed with guilt and sex. That’s what I’ve heard from non-Catholics a ton. Mainly that we are extremely guilt-tripped and talk about the morality sex all the time

 

[Delphinus]

Area means a lot. I’ve been working closely with a priest about my issues where I am. He admits there is a problem and says that I’d do better in another area with more Catholics. Sadly, that is not where God planted me, so we are talking about growing where we are planted.

My parish is NOT indicative of the church as a whole…I have to remind myself of that at times. I just live in a very confused area.

 

[steve-b]

In all honesty, I didn’t know those were even things until I came here.

And in truth, I have no idea who those two guys are so this non-Catholic doesn’t get any info from there.

In all honesty, the majority of non-Catholics see the Catholic Church as another church down the street full of people trying to get to heaven the best they can.

It describes an attitude many people today have adapted

Indifferentism or latitudinarian

 

[lokisuperfan]

I’ve heard from some Protestants that they think the Catholic Church used to be the One Church, but was led astray, and so they’re waiting for it to return to God so they can rejoin it. They don’t want to be separate, but they believe it’s necessary to preserve their faith.