What do Protestant really believe about the Catholic Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter 2018aj
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
We will. A couple of confirmations tomorrow, in our (as the sign says out front) Catholic and Evangelical, parish, in the Anglican tradition.

GKMotley, Anglicanus Catholicus.
 
Amen GKMotley, on that note I was intending to edit my post to state that I certainly believe there are many “Anglo-Catholics” who are far more faithful in both the “Evangelical” and “Catholic” aspects of the faith than some losers (like me) who critique certain “Anglo-Catholic” aberrations.

p.p.p.p.p.s. Since I’ve been talking about it so long, I was wondering what that big word “Anglo-Catholic” means anyway? 🙂 For argumentation purposes I’ve arbitrarily defined it as lying somewhere between mostly and pure evil. However, for reality purposes, I and any person who lines up with traditional prayer book Anglicanism would almost certainly agree with a typical member of this mystical force of “Anglicanus Catholicus” on a vast majority of doctrinal issues. I’ve even heard that certain members of the Anglo-Catholic clan refer to themselves as traditional prayer book Anglicans (among other things). It seems Anglicans are a motley crew after all…

Have a great week.
 
Last edited:
…couldn’t have said it better. Now, go hence and in the words of those pesky old Anglican formularies (Book of Homilies II, Homily 13 to be precise), “receive our Savior and Maker in His blessed Sacrament, to our everlasting comfort, and health of soul”.
 
Last edited:
We feel that Jesus laid out a simple plan for salvation. I am sorry to say, but Jesus was living as a man of simple means while on the earth and preaching. No fancy hats or robes. So as Christians, shouldn’t we follow preachers and teachers who do likewise? We don’t hate you, but wonder if all of the fanciness of the Catholic Church is what the Lord did when he was here. No offense intended.
 
There is one true church, that is the Catholic Church. Protestants are simply lapsed Catholics in my opinion.
 
There are simply too many kinds of Protestants to allow for any single coherent answer to this question. The answers range from the irenic to the extraordinarily in-your-face. Sorry to dismiss your question, but you’ll need to narrow it if you hope for anything approaching a coherent answer.
 
Hello Le_Cracquere, I agree there are a variety of differences in the approach of Protestants towards Roman Catholics (similar to the range of approaches of Roman Catholics towards Protestants). While I am a member of a particular local church, I have attended Protestant churches from across the spectrum and have been blessed by what I’ve received from each Church I’ve attended. I’ve also enjoyed in my spare time studying the doctrinal positions from across this spectrum. Despite differences on secondary matters–which is common even among conservative Roman Catholics–Bible-believing Protestants are almost all in substantive agreement on the fundamental matters of faith (and even in agreement on the vast majority of secondary matters of faith).

Further, as noted above, I would argue that conservative Roman Catholics actually have greater agreement in many ways with Bible-believing Protestants than they do with the liberal wing of the Roman Catholic Church.

It looks like I’ll be off the thread for a couple of weeks, so have a great week.
 
Last edited:
That_Flint_Guy said:
We feel that Jesus laid out a simple plan for salvation. I am sorry to say, but Jesus was living as a man of simple means while on the earth and preaching. No fancy hats or robes. So as Christians, shouldn’t we follow preachers and teachers who do likewise? We don’t hate you, but wonder if all of the fanciness of the Catholic Church is what the Lord did when he was here. No offense intended.
Click to expand...
So, it is a dress code? Should we then expect sandals and robes only? Is Ralph Sexton or John Hagee disqualified because of their suit and tie?

Humans use uniforms. I don’t see Catholics as being any different.
 
Le_Cracquere said:
There are simply too many kinds of Protestants to allow for any single coherent answer to this question. The answers range from the irenic to the extraordinarily in-your-face. Sorry to dismiss your question, but you’ll need to narrow it if you hope for anything approaching a coherent answer.
Click to expand...
Hence, the reason not to use the term Protestant when talking about doctrine and practice.
They are not one monolithic group, and never have been.
 
Hello guanophore, I wanted to start responding (every couple of weeks or so due to schedule) to some of your comments:
guanophore said:
William Scott: “Rather, I would argue that the opposite is the case per the Scriptural commands to never attempt to communicate with those who have passed from this life, whether they are the souls of brothers and sisters who are alive with God (as Abraham and Samuel) or the souls of those eternally separated from God.”
Click to expand...
You state that there are “no scriptural prohibitions with regards to the Church”. However, all moral commands in the Old Testament are binding on the Church, as I’m sure you agree. The Old Testament prohibition against communicating with departed souls is therefore binding on the Church. Communicating with the souls of the departed Old Testament saints (all of whom continued to live after death, as Christ makes clear in the Gospel–e.g. Mark 12:27) was clearly included in this Scriptural prohibition.

There is nothing in the New Testament that could reasonably be construed to abrogate this command–certainly not the fact that departed saints, both in the New Covenant era and prior thereto, are alive with God (since this was a reality revealed even in the Old Testament Scriptures).

As noted above, the handful of New Testament passages that are regularly cited as favorable evidence for prayers to departed saints are ambiguous at best and cannot be deemed to carry the weight of a practice that is in prima facie conflict with Scriptural commands and that lacks a single real example in the Old or New Testament Scriptures, the Deuterocanonical books, or in any work of the Church Fathers for the first 300 years or more of the Church.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Further, while I have argued above that prayers to the saints are inherently idolatrous (because of the inherently worshipful nature of prayer), I believe many of the prayers within Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are overtly so. I do not believe prayers such as the one below can be reasonably categorized as simply asking a saint for prayers, nor can they be counted in continuity with anything contained in the Apostolic Deposit of Sacred Scripture, nor the testimony of Tradition for hundreds of years after the Apostles.

St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Shelter Me Under Your Mantle:
"Most holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the Universe, the Advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day. I venerate you, great Queen, and I thank you for the many graces you have bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often served by my sins.

I love you, my dearest Lady; and because of that love, I promise to serve you willingly for ever and to do what I can to make you loved by others also.
I place in you all my hopes for salvation; accept me as your servant and shelter me under your mantle, you who are the Mother of Mercy…"

Now, as always, I am aware that the idolatry and necromancy of my own heart (e.g. 1 Sam. 15:23, Col. 3:5, etc.) may in many ways surpass any idolatry or necromancy that I believe occurs when my RC brethren offer prayers to saints. However, this practice is one of the reasons why I must remain a “separated brother” despite my belief in the importance of Tradition and the general necessity of the Church and the Sacraments for Salvation (contra the radical individualism and lack of historic grounding that afflicts many within Evangelicalism–and afflicts, perhaps surprisingly, Roman Catholics as well).
 
Last edited:
William_Scott said:
However, this practice is one of the reasons why I must remain a “separated brother” despite my belief in the importance of Tradition and the general necessity of the Church and the Sacraments for Salvation
Click to expand...
Sounds like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to me. You believe in the necessity of the sacraments but choose not to partake because of some prayer that is not part of the liturgy, the worship of the Church.

You are under no obligation to say such prayer, no o e is… but because someone somewhere says it, you cut yourself off from what you believe are necessary.

Ummm ok
 
William_Scott said:
As noted above, the handful of New Testament passages that are regularly cited as favorable evidence for prayers to departed saints are ambiguous at best and cannot be deemed to carry the weight of a practice that is in prima facie conflict with Scriptural commands and that lacks a single real example in the Old or New Testament Scriptures, the Deuterocanonical books, or in any work of the Church Fathers for the first 300 years or more of the Church.
Click to expand...
You should read the letters in the new testament, especially the Pauline. The incarnation of Christ changes our relationship with God & there by our relationship to “the law”

We aren’t obliged in the way a slave is to his master. The law does not lead to righteousness. Righteousness leads to the law, which is life.

We ate told to look at our elders, to pattern our lives after there’s. Not to adhere to the old testament laws. We’re explicitly told not to “bind” ourselves to the law. But to faith.
 
Hello Justin_Mary, my differences with the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches is by no means limited to prayers to saints. Nor do I believe that the Blessed Sacrament and true Church are limited to these two churches (both of whom make conflicting claims as to who and what the One True Church of Christ is).

While I realize that you believe Protestants lack the Sacraments, this does not disturb me any more than the slight disturbance you may have at the belief of many Eastern Orthodox that Roman Catholics lack real Sacraments.
 
Last edited:
As for the Law, its moral precepts (e.g. Love God, love neighbor, the 10 commandments, and the many other moral precepts of the Law against witchcraft, idolatry, sexual perversion, etc.) are binding on all people for all time—according to the New Testament and the universal testimony of Tradition. Now we may have to agree to disagree as to whether the moral commands against necromancy, idolatry, etc. forbid all prayers to saints (I strongly believe they do as is evident from my comments here), but it cannot be disputed by those who adhere to Scripture and Tradition that these commands are still binding on the Church.
 
Last edited:
p.s. Unfortunately I’ll need to take my leave from this discussion for the next couple of weeks because of schedule limitations. Have a grace-filled Lord’s Day.
 
p.p.s. Before the work week starts I wanted to clarify my earlier post(s) for any of my fellow Non-Roman Catholic brothers or sisters who might have been confused at where I was coming from in my affirmations on the general necessity of the Church and Sacraments for Salvation. I do not believe participation in the visible Church and Sacraments is in any way a means of “earning” Salvation. Rather, as the reformers themselves note, God ordinarily applies the Salvation of Christ through the outward means of grace–the Word read and proclaimed, prayer, the Sacraments, etc. This is the traditional teaching of “justification by faith alone”. A Salvation that is divorced from the Visible Church and Sacraments is foreign to the reformation teaching of “faith alone”.

This is not at all opposed to the fact that Salvation is also an intensely personal matter. I love the ministry of Billy Graham and other evangelists of the past centuries who spoke to this reality. The Gospel truths proclaimed by Billy Graham are a fine example of the “Catholic and Apostolic” call to each and every person on earth to repent, trust in Christ alone for Salvation and surrender their lives entirely to Him as their personal Lord and Savior. For those who refuse to personally surrender to Christ in this way and place their trust in Him alone, participation in the Visible Church and her Holy Sacraments is only “play church”, an outward show and a mockery to God–“Why call ye Me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say” Luke 6:46.

Billy Graham on Total Surrender:
"If you want a change in your life, if you want forgiveness and peace and joy that you’ve never known before, God demands total surrender. He becomes the Lord and the ruler of your life.

…Have you ever surrendered yourself unconditionally to Christ? Have you ever given Him your mind and your body and your will? When you come to Christ, that’s just the beginning because you must live for Him."


Billy Graham’s “Call to Commitment” is another classic on this point, and I would recommend anyone following this thread read the message:


And last but not least from Billy Graham:
“Being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion—it is a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ.”

I believe Billy Graham’s messages–and those of other fine evangelists now and during the past centuries of the Church–are powerful prophetic calls to the personal and absolute (and daily) surrender to Christ that those Baptized in the Name of the Blessed Trinity have covenanted themselves to. And it is this same covenant of absolute surrender that we solemnly renew before God and man every time we participate in Holy Communion. Have a great week all.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top