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steido01
Guest
The Book of Concord is the official collection of Lutheran ‘governing’ documents since 1580. See the left column for the table of contents. You’ll notice that the three chiefest, dearest documents (next to Holy Scripture, of course) are the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds.
It is always good to learn what others believe. Often, we find we have more in common than originally thought. This is particularly helpful in our ever-more-secularized world.
Lutherans do not discredit the actual validity or Divine call to ministry of the Bishop of Rome, in the sense of any other bishop or pastor. But we do believe he is in error when he claims universal, immediate jurisdiction over the entire church by Divine right. We also disagree that he holds the authority to bestow kingdoms, enthrone and depose kings, regulate secular dominions, etc., and we strongly disagree that one must submit to his authority in order to be saved. We understand that to be against Christ’s commands.
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friardchips
Guest
I’m not judging reasons or anything, but from the point of view that I think the general Catholic would take, is that one doesn’t quit for any reason - not even because a Pope might be less than what he could be. Luther left for reasons he thought suitable, and Henry left for his reasons, and whether they had reasons or not that might seem justifiable to many people now or back then, they still did the splits.
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friardchips
Guest
Professing is speaking only. How deep does that profession go?
What about the Dogmas?
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friardchips
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Thanks for this.
Okay, thanks.
What would you say, if I were to say that Christ works through His “one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”? The specific detail I relate my question to, is this: in the Magnificat’, Our Lady proclaims prayerfully, in the majesty of the Holy Spirit, that “He has pulled down princes from their thrones…”.
- you see, the words of wisdom spoken in Scripture are not just metaphors, they are truths, that are lived both spiritually and physically…
“…and has exalted the lowly.”
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Seekerjn316
Guest
The early Church was not nearly as organized as many think. The teachings of Jesus of Nazareth were preserved within the Jewish community of believers in those first decades as Mos of those call “Christians” were Jews and worshipped within the synagogues…the gospels were written, at least the synoptics, as liturgical texts to be used in the synagouges. Those “God fearers” who came to believe in Israel God, but had no desire to be circumcised or keep the Law made up thr first gentile converts.
As the Way spread more and more gentiles became interested, and along these lines discussion of exactly who Jesus was became more divergent as non Jews became converts. When it was decided circumcision wasn’t required nor was keeping the Law, it began a separation between Jewish believers and Gentile believers…sometimes congregations were strictly gentile.
With the fall of Jerusalem rabbinical Judaism became more prevent among Jewish people to the point that the Way was no longer a set of Judaism, but it’s own religious traditiion…so became the birth of Gentile controlled congrgations.
Of the various sects of Christian thoughtt,Mt he “prpto-catholic/orthodox” because of the insight some of their leadership had began to circulate letters encouraging those congrgations to identify along with their understanding of who Jesus was.
Christianity was made up of Arians, gnostics, Maeciinites, Ebionites, and others that were absorbed into some of the larger bodies.
By the time of Nice a factions of various belief systems competed for preeminence as the “true continuation” of representing Christianity, a very diverse group the group that finally became victory in this struggle became aligned with Rome and it’s emperor…the “proto-orthodox/catholic” group consolidated and organized into what became the Catholic/orthodox churches…they had a network of congregations joined with them thru letters and representatives to become the “face” of Christianity. The other sects still existed but slowly died out as the group aligned with the Roman government and pronounced banishment and or more violent means to rid themselves of the competition.
The Church is comprised of those who place their trust and faith in Jesus of Nazareth and follow him, the political and social organization of the Orthodox Catholic Church claimed it’s organization was to be seen as The Church…even though splits continued to occur.
As the Way spread more and more gentiles became interested, and along these lines discussion of exactly who Jesus was became more divergent as non Jews became converts. When it was decided circumcision wasn’t required nor was keeping the Law, it began a separation between Jewish believers and Gentile believers…sometimes congregations were strictly gentile.
With the fall of Jerusalem rabbinical Judaism became more prevent among Jewish people to the point that the Way was no longer a set of Judaism, but it’s own religious traditiion…so became the birth of Gentile controlled congrgations.
Of the various sects of Christian thoughtt,Mt he “prpto-catholic/orthodox” because of the insight some of their leadership had began to circulate letters encouraging those congrgations to identify along with their understanding of who Jesus was.
Christianity was made up of Arians, gnostics, Maeciinites, Ebionites, and others that were absorbed into some of the larger bodies.
By the time of Nice a factions of various belief systems competed for preeminence as the “true continuation” of representing Christianity, a very diverse group the group that finally became victory in this struggle became aligned with Rome and it’s emperor…the “proto-orthodox/catholic” group consolidated and organized into what became the Catholic/orthodox churches…they had a network of congregations joined with them thru letters and representatives to become the “face” of Christianity. The other sects still existed but slowly died out as the group aligned with the Roman government and pronounced banishment and or more violent means to rid themselves of the competition.
The Church is comprised of those who place their trust and faith in Jesus of Nazareth and follow him, the political and social organization of the Orthodox Catholic Church claimed it’s organization was to be seen as The Church…even though splits continued to occur.
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pablope
Guest
Lutherans believe and confess that the bishop of Rome is the anti-Christ.
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Seekerjn316
Guest
Because the man made organization led by its popes, bishops and priests became corrupt and the line blurred, the Reformation occurred as on of the last major splits within g rater Christianity. In time Christianity again had competing sects…but fae784f4e379f6e699e74066a22aecbc1873ba30.1 far less diverse than the early Church had been.
Most Protestant sects are trying to follow as close as they can determine the truth.
My own group sees itself to an extent as “primitive Christianity revived”…not the only Christians and not claimin to be the true church in and of itself, but claims that those who put their faith in Christ and walk in His ways com prise the True Church.
Most Protestant sects are trying to follow as close as they can determine the truth.
My own group sees itself to an extent as “primitive Christianity revived”…not the only Christians and not claimin to be the true church in and of itself, but claims that those who put their faith in Christ and walk in His ways com prise the True Church.
Untrue, and you know it, Pablope. This has been explained to you over and over again.
Jon
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Seekerjn316
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One thing I’ve noticed about “Catholic apologies”, dispensing incorrect and known false information is not discouraged for some reason.
Thanks, but I disagree. CAF does a very good job of maintaining an even hand between Catholic and non-Catholic posters. And it is often the case on other forums that protestants regularly dispense false information about Catholicism, which is why I don’t spend any time on them. As a Lutheran / Evangelical Catholic, I feel far more welcome here than those others.One thing I’ve noticed about “Catholic apologies”, dispensing incorrect and known false information is not discouraged for some reason.
Jon
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Padres1969
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Which dogmas are your referring to specifically?
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BartholomewB
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The “depth” will surely vary from person to person within the Anglican Church, or within the Lutheran Church, as it does within the (Roman) Catholic Church.
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Seekerjn316
Guest
Things that continue to be touted by “Catholic apoloogists”
*Luther removed books from the Bible
*Protestants don’t believe in good works
*all one need do is repeat he “sinners prayer” an d theyre saved
*Lutherans believe and confess the pope is anti Christ
Should I continue to list those things corrected and known to be false by “apologists”…I will if it would assist?
That “Protestants do it so Catholics can do it”…doesn’t seem like a very good reason for it to continue…but that’s just my opinion…
No, you’ve made your point, but it isn’t a majority, in my experience, and here at CAF, its usually new posters. And the point remains that non-Catholics do the same.Things that continue to be touted by “Catholic apoloogists”
*Luther removed books from the Bible
*Protestants don’t believe in good works
*all one need do is repeat he “sinners prayer” an d theyre saved
*Lutherans believe and confess the pope is anti Christ
Should I continue to list those things corrected and known to be false by “apologists”…I will if it would assist?
Just wondering.
*Catholics practice works righteousness
*Catholics worship Mary
*Catholics practice necromancy
*Catholics worship bread and wine.
etc.
Neither is very becoming, ISTM.
Jon
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Seekerjn316
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I made a change in my post…thanks for your repsonse…I was just “trying to make a point”…I guess I did.
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steido01
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You’re welcome, brother.
I would agree entirely; Christ works through His church to administer the Word and Sacraments to His people. Though I’d be willing to bet that we might differ slightly in our understandings of just what constitutes the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
I understand your point. So did the Lutheran Reformers. That’s why they decided to write their beliefs in concise documents like those found in the Book of Concord, and to appoint ecclesial overseers (bishops/superintendents/presidents) to keep pastors and fellow bishops accountable. Yet they were never opposed to the practical concept of a presiding bishop. Take Philip Melancthon’s words regarding the Lutheran opposition to the Papacy:
In regard to the Pope, I hold that, if he would admit the Gospel, we might also permit him, for the sake of peace and the common concord of Christendom, to exercise, by human right, [that is, not ‘Divine’ right,] his present jurisdiction over the bishops, who are now or may hereafter be under his authority.
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Starwarsfan2
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Not even close , we’re willing to support the bishop of Rome , if he rejects the authority he usurped
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Wannano
Guest
I am new to this so I am responding to you to ask a question. I was reading posts on this thread minutes ago when I left it to look up some info. When I came back it seems there are a few posts missing, would that be the moderator removing them to maintain the balance you mentioned? They were in my opinion close to proselytising.
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