What do Protestants think about these verses?

[Art321]

I would like to get your thoughts on these verses and in no way do I wish to question your beliefs. I simply wish to started a discussion done with an open mind.

Here they are:

John 6:53-58, 66-67

*“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.’ After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will you also go away?’” *

2 Thessalonians 2:15

*“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” *

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22

*“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

“And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”*

**Colossians 1:24 **

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh and I complete what is lacking in Christ’s affliction for the sake of his body, that is, the church”

**James 2:24 **

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Your thoughts?

 

[Art321]

Come on. Anyone??? Let me hear your thoughts on this. How do Protestants interpret these?

 

[O.S.Luke]

Thread discussed ad nauseam here, previously.

It’s another baiting thread, Protestants. I would think twice before answering.

 

[Art321]

Thread discussed ad nauseam here, previously.

It’s another baiting thread, Protestants. I would think twice before answering.

I didn’t start this thread to attack Protestants in any way. I simply wish to know their interpretation of these verses. That is all.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I would like to get your thoughts on these verses and in no way do I wish to question your beliefs. I simply wish to started a discussion done with an open mind.

Here they are:

John 6:53-58, 66-67

*“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.’ After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will you also go away?’” *

2 Thessalonians 2:15

*“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” *

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22

*“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

“And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”*

**Colossians 1:24 **

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh and I complete what is lacking in Christ’s affliction for the sake of his body, that is, the church”

**James 2:24 **

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Your thoughts?

My question is: What’s your point on any of these verses? They all make sense to me. I think the issue is you have some issues against Protestantism you don’t understand very well.

So my opinion is that I agree with all of these verses. What’s the problem?

 

[imkingdad]

I didn’t start this thread to attack Protestants in any way. I simply wish to know their interpretation of these verses. That is all.

Protestants find these verses difficult to deal with directly, so they go through a great deal of semantic & mental gymnastics to exclude those aspects that disagree with the Professions of their respective Protestant branch. examples are 1 moment Jesus is speaking literally then the very next second -without rhyme or reason He suddenly is speaking figuratively. Tradition was just until the Bible was completed & loads of other ridiculous attempts to justify their respective heresies.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Protestants find these verses difficult to deal with directly, so they go through a great deal of semantic & mental gymnastics to exclude those aspects that disagree with the Professions of their respective Protestant branch. examples are 1 moment Jesus is speaking literally then the very next second -without rhyme or reason He suddenly is speaking figuratively. Tradition was just until the Bible was completed & loads of other ridiculous attempts to justify their respective heresies.

You’re attacking a straw man.

 

[O.S.Luke]

The Strawman is alive and well here.

http://jontangerine.com/media/418-strawman.jpg

Pax vobiscum.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I’ll bite - even though Imkingdad and folks like him will disregard the fact that we are being invited to respond and then will be attacked for our responses.

John 6:53-58, 66-67

*“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.’ After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will you also go away?’” *

The fourth of seven signs in the Fourth Gospel. Very eucharistic in nature. Certainly more than a meal, it’s a feast, as in v. 10 where Jesus has the people “recline” (anepesen/anepese), not merely “sit” - which in some translations is poorly translated. Reclining was the posture of a feast, just as at Passover. Jesus is the bread of life and the bread of heaven, the gift of eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

*“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” *

Self-explanatory. I don’t know many who would deny the apostolic tradition. My communion certainly doesn’t - scripture has to be viewed by the lenses of faith, reason, and tradition.

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22

*“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

“And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”*

Peter became the leader of the disciples. It is of enormous comfort to us all, as Peter went from being fickle and a denier of Jesus to being a leader.

**Colossians 1:24 **

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh and I complete what is lacking in Christ’s affliction for the sake of his body, that is, the church”

Paul’s testimony to the church at Colossae while in prison, for the people to find their faithfulness in Christ and in servant ministry. Paul had never been to Colossae and so his introduction to them is more personal and explanative than in some of his other letters. Anyone who serves Christ will suffer with him.

**James 2:24 **

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Faith without works is dead. That’s pretty clear. From my own Methodist tradition, John Wesley was fairly clear that works of piety (such as prayer, lectio divina, fasting, and the Eucharist), works of mercy (ministry to the poor, visiting the sick and imprisoned) were all, along with the sacraments, means of grace. His sermon is here, and he addresses works and faith towards the end of the sermon.

So… let’s see if people really want to hear what one Protestant thinks, or will now place all of the above on a tee and proceed to swing at it.

 

[Art321]

I’ll bite - even though Imkingdad and folks like him will disregard the fact that we are being invited to respond and then will be attacked for our responses.

The fourth of seven signs in the Fourth Gospel. Very eucharistic in nature. Certainly more than a meal, it’s a feast, as in v. 10 where Jesus has the people “recline” (anepesen/anepese), not merely “sit” - which in some translations is poorly translated. Reclining was the posture of a feast, just as at Passover. Jesus is the bread of life and the bread of heaven, the gift of eternal life.

Self-explanatory. I don’t know many who would deny the apostolic tradition. My communion certainly doesn’t - scripture has to be viewed by the lenses of faith, reason, and tradition.

Peter became the leader of the disciples. It is of enormous comfort to us all, as Peter went from being fickle and a denier of Jesus to being a leader.

Paul’s testimony to the church at Colossae while in prison, for the people to find their faithfulness in Christ and in servant ministry. Paul had never been to Colossae and so his introduction to them is more personal and explanative than in some of his other letters. Anyone who serves Christ will suffer with him.

Faith without works is dead. That’s pretty clear. From my own Methodist tradition, John Wesley was fairly clear that works of piety (such as prayer, lectio divina, fasting, and the Eucharist), works of mercy (ministry to the poor, visiting the sick and imprisoned) were all, along with the sacraments, means of grace. His sermon is here, and he addresses works and faith towards the end of the sermon.

So… let’s see if people really want to hear what one Protestant thinks, or will now place all of the above on a tee and proceed to swing at it.

Thank you for this post. This is all I wanted to see.

God bless,

Art321

 

[Joshua27]

Since you’d truly like a discussion let’s start with this passage.

First - as a rule - let’s understand that Messiah himself said that there is a reason why he speaks in riddles and parables.

Matthew 13:10-13

10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”

11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

13 This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

…Not everyone is supposed to know the truth because some people, “can’t handle the truth!” So none of what Messiah says can be understood on the surface, or is obvious…the truth lies deeper.

Now…

John 6:53-58, 66-67

"So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.’ After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will you also go away?’"

Concerning the passage above, let me ask everyone a simple question; "What is blood?"

 

[Art321]

Since you’d truly like a discussion let’s start with this passage.

First - as a rule - let’s understand that Messiah himself said that there is a reason why he speaks in riddles and parables.

Matthew 13:10-13

…Not everyone is supposed to know the truth because some people, “can’t handle the truth!” So none of what Messiah says can be understood on the surface, or is obvious…the truth lies deeper.

Now…

Concerning the passage above, let me ask everyone a simple question; "What is blood?"

Well, if you want the definition of the word, here you go…

the fluid that circulates in the principal vascular system of human beings.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Since you’d truly like a discussion let’s start with this passage.

First - as a rule - let’s understand that Messiah himself said that there is a reason why he speaks in riddles and parables.

Matthew 13:10-13

…Not everyone is supposed to know the truth because some people, “can’t handle the truth!” So none of what Messiah says can be understood on the surface, or is obvious…the truth lies deeper.

Now…

Concerning the passage above, let me ask everyone a simple question; "What is blood?"

“So none of what the Messiah says can be understood on the surface” You underlined on the surface.

None of what he says can be understood on the surface? None of it?

Are you absolutely sure that none of what he said was literal?

Not a bit of it?

 

[Melkite_Sword]

Since you’d truly like a discussion let’s start with this passage.

First - as a rule - let’s understand that Messiah himself said that there is a reason why he speaks in riddles and parables.

Matthew 13:10-13

…Not everyone is supposed to know the truth because some people, “can’t handle the truth!” So none of what Messiah says can be understood on the surface, or is obvious…the truth lies deeper.

Now…

Concerning the passage above, let me ask everyone a simple question; "What is blood?"

Thats an interesting point you make. I suppose you have some infallible interpretation of Jesus’ words!

I don’t know where you got this conclusion from; “So none of what Messiah says can be understood on the surface”, many things he said where understood on the surface;John 5:17-18 and perhaps John 6:48-70 ?

blood is a red fluid, flowing through our vains!

peace

 

[Joshua27]

[Melkite Sword Says] blood is a red fluid, flowing through our veins!

[Art321 Says] The fluid that circulates in the principal vascular system of human beings

[StrawberryJam Says] Are you absolutely sure that none of what he said was literal?

---

Let all who have eyes see what the Spirit says to the church.

**Matthew 3:16 **As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

John 7:37-39

37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within HIM [note: this is from “whoever believes”]."

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Revelation 22:17 - The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.

Blood is the life-giving fluid/water for every human being.
But for God - who is Spirit - His life-giving fluid/water (His blood) is his “Holy Spirit”?

---

Now let’s once again read John 6:53-58, 66-67

"So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his [Holy Spirit], you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my [Holy Spirit] has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my [Holy Spirit] is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my [Holy Spirit] abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.’ After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will you also go away?’"

This is why many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him, because - often - many did not understand the deeper meaning of his words.

Physical Water sustains us - literally gives us life. We cannot survive for more than a week without it. But what Messiah offered to us to drink is his Spirit, the true life-giving water.

Messiah was actually saying, “Believe in me to drink of the Holy Spirit and receive true life”.

 

[Art321]

a_priori:

I agree. He does deserve our prayers. He is a human being made in God’s image for whom Christ died. Being relieved that he will take his political train wreck to a place where he does less damage is not tantamount to gloating.

[Melkite Sword Says] blood is a red fluid, flowing through our veins!

[Art321 Says] The fluid that circulates in the principal vascular system of human beings

[StrawberryJam Says] Are you absolutely sure that none of what he said was literal?

---

Let all who have eyes see what the Spirit says to the church.

Thank you for interesting point of view.

Blood is the life-giving fluid/water for every human being.
But for God - who is Spirit - His life-giving fluid/water (His blood) is his “Holy Spirit”?

---

Now let’s once again read John 6:53-58, 66-67

This is why many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him, because - often - many did not understand the deeper meaning of his words.

Physical Water sustains us - literally gives us life. We cannot survive for more than a week without it. But what Messiah offered to us to drink is his Spirit, the true life-giving water.

Messiah was actually saying, “Believe in me to drink of the Holy Spirit and receive true life”.

 

[Art321]

Thank you for your interesting point of view.

 

[Melkite_Sword]

Let all who have eyes see what the Spirit says to the church.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

John 7:37-39

37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within HIM [note: this is from “whoever believes”]."

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Revelation 22:17 - The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.

Blood is the life-giving fluid/water for every human being.
But for God - who is Spirit - His life-giving fluid/water (His blood) is his “Holy Spirit”?

Be careful drawing that conclusion. In John 6:53-58, 66-67, Jesus was speaking about his blood.Jesus was very much a human. Where does scripture make the connection your making,blood=water? I’m also yet to see a scripture that refers to the Holy Spirit as ‘God’s blood’… I mean that is one BIG jump.

Now let’s once again read John 6:53-58, 66-67

“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his [Holy Spirit], you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my [Holy Spirit] has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my [Holy Spirit] is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my [Holy Spirit] abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.’ After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will you also go away?’”

This is why many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him, because - often - many did not understand the deeper meaning of his words.

Physical Water sustains us - literally gives us life. We cannot survive for more than a week without it. But what Messiah offered to us to drink is his Spirit, the true life-giving water.

Messiah was actually saying, “Believe in me to drink of the Holy Spirit and receive true life”.

No Jesus didn’t say ‘drink the Holy Spirit’ in John 6. Thats what you want him to be saying. His disciples drew back and no longer followed him because ‘it was a hard saying who can accept it?’, they left because they took him literally. There is a problem in your interpretation, if Jesus knew they took him literally but he intended it to be taken figuratively, why didn’t he explain what he meant? he did this all the time when his followers misunderstood his words, for example John 3:5. Nicodemus thought Jesus wanted him to enter into his mothers womb again and be reborn, Jesus then clarifies and tells him that he is speaking of being born again of the water and the spirit (baptism). Why does Jesus always do this? he does this because he needed to fullfill God’s will which is as he tells us ‘to lose none that the Father has given me’. You also haven’t explained what Jesus meant by ‘eat me’ (his flesh).

Peace

 

[Joshua27]

Be careful drawing that conclusion. In John 6:53-58, 66-67, Jesus was speaking about his blood.Jesus was very much a human. Where does scripture make the connection your making,blood=water? I’m also yet to see a scripture that refers to the Holy Spirit as ‘God’s blood’… I mean that is one BIG jump.

For whom? Why is this hard to believe, Melkite? Blood is life, isn’t it?

The life of every creature is in its blood…[Leviticus 17:14]

Jesus said:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.[John 14:6]

But if this is not enough proof, please read on…

Isaiah 12:2 - Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Yahshua [JESUS]: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Hebrew: Yah = “God/I am/is become”] + Shua = “salvation/to save”]

Isaiah 12:2 - God is become salvation, Yashua - whom you call Jesus - the well from which we draw life-giving water.

Now just put the pieces together, Melkite, when rereading the verses below…

John 6:53 - Then Jesus [God who is become the well of salvation] said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

And then Jesus is recorded saying…

John 7:37-39

37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus [God who is become the well of salvation] stood and said in a loud voice,

“If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

So when you read the above; when first you read Jesus’ quote, and then read the writer’s explanation of what Jesus was actually talking about, what conclusion do you draw?

Ask yourself: How many things were we offered to drink, from Jesus? Wasn’t there only one important thing Jesus offered us as drink; the drink he kept offering all throughout his ministry? But if this still isn’t enough proof, read the situation of “Jesus and the Samaritan Woman” [John 4:7-26]

The most telling verse in this scene is this one:

John 4:14 - But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

**No Jesus didn’t say ‘drink the Holy Spirit’ in John 6. Thats what you want him to be saying. **

No, it’s not what I want…It’s explained in John 7:37-39 above…with none of my words, but the writer’s own explanation:

John 7:37-39 - Jesus’ Living Water = Jesus’ Spirit.

 

[Joshua27]

…if Jesus knew they took him literally but he intended it to be taken figuratively, why didn’t he explain what he meant?

Take care that you are not guilty of your own assumptions, Melkite. Jesus answered your question in the very passage you reference.

John 6:60 - Many of his disciples said, “This is very hard to understand. How can anyone accept it?”

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, "Does this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth [gives life]; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

Remember the rule I first gave prior to postimg my explanations. “Through all see, many will not see.”

You also haven’t explained what Jesus meant by ‘eat me’ (his flesh).

Peace

Truth is revealed in layers. I was trying to explain one element at a time, if that’s ok?