What do Protestants think about these verses?

[Melkite_Sword]

I believe that baptism is a part of the salvation process, but does not in and of itself; save you! We are saved by faith through grace; washed by the blood of the Lamb. What would happen tosomeone who was “saved,” (regardless of religion or denomination) and had faith, but chose to sin deliberately? I would seriously question their salvationI mean, think about it; knowing what you know about Jesus, and how wonderful His love and grace are, could you consciously sin deliberately? I know I couldn’t! And please don’t misunderstand, just because I am a noncatholic. that I believe that one does not need works to supplement their faith I am just saying that too many people put too much emphasis on works, to where Christians feel inadequate, if they do not do enough “work!” I still contend that Matthew 7:21 speaks to those who have not followed the will of God, but hope to get in by calling Jesus “Lord!” I don’t know if I believe that it applies to us true believers in Christ; those of us who pick up our cross daily and follow Him

You said its part of the salvation process, good. Many Protestants don’t realise salvation is a process and treat it like some kind flu shot. We were saved (Eph 2:5) , we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18,2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12) and Lord have mercy we will be saved, if ofcourse we do good works in faith through love (Galatians 5:6, James 2:17) by God’s grace and avoid sin as Hebrews 10:26 tells us because we will be judged by our deeds ( Matt 25:31-46, and every passage speaking of judgement). So you understand that Baptism is part of the salvation process, I agree, doesn’t that mean you also agree that this means that it ‘now saves you’(1Peter 3:21) as the Bible teaches?

I agree, me and you don’t sin because we know the love of Jesus. But unfortunately, according to Protestant theology, some people can abuse his love…they still have faith, yet they sin anyway, seeing no punishment for there actions. So in theory they are still saved, if they have faith. are they not? If they are not then you would have the Catholic position on salvation, if we sin we lose our salvation (Rom 11:22, Heb 10:26–29, 2 Pet 2:20–21)

Peace

 

[1beleevr]

[QUOT[E=Melkite Sword;6312561]You said its part of the salvation process, good. Many Protestants don’t realise salvation is a process and treat it like some kind flu shot. We were saved (Eph 2:5) , we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18,2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12) and Lord have mercy we will be saved, if ofcourse we do good works in faith through love (Galatians 5:6, James 2:17) by God’s grace and avoid sin as Hebrews 10:26 tells us because we will be judged by our deeds ( Matt 25:31-46, and every passage speaking of judgement). So you understand that Baptism is part of the salvation process, I agree, doesn’t that mean you also agree that this means that it ‘now saves you’(1Peter 3:21) as the Bible teaches?

I agree, me and you don’t sin because we know the love of Jesus. But unfortunately, according to Protestant theology, some people can abuse his love…they still have faith, yet they sin anyway, seeing no punishment for there actions. So in theory they are still saved, if they have faith. are they not? If they are not then you would have the Catholic position on salvation, if we sin we lose our salvation (Rom 11:22, Heb 10:26–29, 2 Pet 2:20–21)

Peace

 

[1beleevr]

You said its part of the salvation process, good. Many Protestants don’t realise salvation is a process and treat it like some kind flu shot. We were saved (Eph 2:5) , we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18,2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12) and Lord have mercy we will be saved, if ofcourse we do good works in faith through love (Galatians 5:6, James 2:17) by God’s grace and avoid sin as Hebrews 10:26 tells us because we will be judged by our deeds ( Matt 25:31-46, and every passage speaking of judgement). So you understand that Baptism is part of the salvation process, I agree, doesn’t that mean you also agree that this means that it ‘now saves you’(1Peter 3:21) as the Bible teaches?

I agree, me and you don’t sin because we know the love of Jesus. But unfortunately, according to Protestant theology, some people can abuse his love…they still have faith, yet they sin anyway, seeing no punishment for there actions. So in theory they are still saved, if they have faith. are they not? If they are not then you would have the Catholic position on salvation, if we sin we lose our salvation (Rom 11:22, Heb 10:26–29, 2 Pet 2:20–21)

Peace

]

Saying that we don’t sin is wrong, otherwise there would be no need for going to confession(I don’t believe in going anyway. I have a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek)! What we do have, is a high degree of awareness of sin, before it happens, and we are convicted! If sin cancels out your salvation, does this mean that you have not sinned since you got saved, or that you have lost it! As long as we are in these bodies, we are vulnerable to sin! Why did Jesus get baptized! He was sinless, right? Some claim that baptism washes away your sins, but theBlood of Jesus has already done tht! He forgave ALL sins on the Cross! Baptism is an act of obedience(just s it was for Jesus), and a declarartion of our intention to follow Christ! It is necessary, but doesn’t save us!

 

[Melkite_Sword]

]

Saying that we don’t sin is wrong, otherwise there would be no need for going to confession(I don’t believe in going anyway. I have a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek)! What we do have, is a high degree of awareness of sin, before it happens, and we are convicted! If sin cancels out your salvation, does this mean that you have not sinned since you got saved, or that you have lost it! As long as we are in these bodies, we are vulnerable to sin! Why did Jesus get baptized! He was sinless, right? Some claim that baptism washes away your sins, but theBlood of Jesus has already done tht! He forgave ALL sins on the Cross! Baptism is an act of obedience(just s it was for Jesus), and a declarartion of our intention to follow Christ! It is necessary, but doesn’t save us!

I think you misunderstood when I said ‘we don’t sin because we know the love of Jesus’, I was intending to say that the reason why we don’t sin, when we can is not because we fear punishment (although this can contribute) but because we know how much Jesus suffered so that we can attain salvation. This is not to say that we don’t give in to temptation and fall, but the reasons why we chose not to (when we do) is not purely from the fear of punishment.

As for confession, Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins (John 20:22-23), they later gave this authority to the elders of the church as we read in James 5:14-15. Ofcourse it’s God who acts through the priest to forgive sins… that’s why the absolution doesn’t work if someone isn’t truly repentant.

Jesus recieved John the baptist’s baptism, this was a ‘baptism of repentance’(Acts 19:4), the Christian baptism is a ‘baptism for the remission of sins’(Acts 2:38)… that’s why the people baptised by John needed re-baptism.

"24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

27When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all."

-Acts 18:24- 19:7

Peace

 

[1beleevr]

I think you misunderstood when I said ‘we don’t sin because we know the love of Jesus’, I was intending to say that the reason why we don’t sin, when we can is not because we fear punishment (although this can contribute) but because we know how much Jesus suffered so that we can attain salvation. This is not to say that we don’t give in to temptation and fall, but the reasons why we chose not to (when we do) is not purely from the fear of punishment.

As for confession, Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins (John 20:22-23), they later gave this authority to the elders of the church as we read in James 5:14-15. Ofcourse it’s God who acts through the priest to forgive sins… that’s why the absolution doesn’t work if someone isn’t truly repentant.

Jesus recieved John the baptist’s baptism, this was a ‘baptism of repentance’(Acts 19:4), the Christian baptism is a ‘baptism for the remission of sins’(Acts 2:38)… that’s why the people baptised by John needed re-baptism.

"24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

27When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all."

-Acts 18:24- 19:7

Peace

]

Sorry about that; I guess I meant, i’s not that we haven’t sinned since we were saved, but now we are more acutely aware of sin and its’ consequences! But if we could lose our salvation by sin, are we stil saved? James 5:16 tells us to confess our sins one to another, not necessarily a priest! Jesus’s baptism was a symbol of obedience, and we should heed it, but it in itself does not save us!

 

[Art321]

]

And thank you, for the kind words! One of my favorite verses these days, is Phillippians 1:6.

That is a great verse! Best of luck to you!

 

[Melkite_Sword]

]

Sorry about that; I guess I meant, i’s not that we haven’t sinned since we were saved, but now we are more acutely aware of sin and its’ consequences! But if we could lose our salvation by sin, are we stil saved? James 5:16 tells us to confess our sins one to another, not necessarily a priest! Jesus’s baptism was a symbol of obedience, and we should heed it, but it in itself does not save us!

We are no longer saved once we commit ‘sin that leads to death’(1John 5:16), what we deem mortal sin. As Paul says in Hebrews 10:26-27 ‘For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.’

I was refering to James 5:14-15, I understand why you wouldn’t regard v.16 as refering to elders (I’m not to fond of that interpretation either). In v.14-15 The elders give the anointing ‘in the name of the Lord’, the prayer ‘saves the sick man, and if he has any sins he will be forgiven’, The is called the sacrament of the anointing of the sick in the Catholic Church, here we see that the elder is forgiving sins, by the power of the Holy Spirit. The same authority we saw Christ give his apostles, the elders now have.

peace

 

[MuddyRocker]

I will respond to your question one verse at a time without getting too theological. I have not read the entire thread, only the first few entries. I can’t help but question some of the answers I read, however. Why are people so mean to each other? But your question is a fair one and I will try to give my views.

I am a non-catholic. So I guess that makes me a protestant; not that I think it matters. But here goes.

John 6:53-58, 66-67
Of course, these verses inspire much controversy in people. We tend to get all upset over them just as those who were with Jesus at the time got very upset. But in order to understand what Jesus meant, you must consider the verses prior to get the context in which it was said. Jesus was talking about the children of Israel eating manna in the desert and relating that to the people he was ministering to now. The children of Israel were wandering in the desert with no food. God sent from heaven - bread - to sustain them in the wilderness and he led them through to the land he had promised to them. The people in Jesus’ time were in the same boat. They were wandering around starving spiritually. They were not physically in the desert starving as the children of Israel were, they were instead wandering around this life starving for the spiritual food that Jesus speaks of and also for the way to the promised land, where there would be all good things - including food. The point he was trying to make was “Seek ye first”. Look at John 4:32 where he is expressing that doing the will of the Father is his “meat”. He is saying that we should be like him in that we are more concerned with the harvest of souls for the kingdom as food for our own souls than we are for physical food. When my son was a boy he played baseball. We used to say that he “eats, sleeps, and lives baseball”! This is what Jesus is saying. If you want to see the kingdom of heaven, you must “Seek ye first”, you must eat, sleep, and live Jesus!
The reason so many turned their backs on Jesus and the reason people argue over this passage today is because interpreted literally - to actually eat Jesus alive - is offensive. But to live his teachings to the point that doing his will actually sustains you as physical bread would? - now that would be love! That would be dedication! That would be eating and drinking Christ!

 

[1beleevr]

We are no longer saved once we commit ‘sin that leads to death’(1John 5:16), what we deem mortal sin. As Paul says in Hebrews 10:26-27 ‘For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.’

I was refering to James 5:14-15, I understand why you wouldn’t regard v.16 as refering to elders (I’m not to fond of that interpretation either). In v.14-15 The elders give the anointing ‘in the name of the Lord’, the prayer ‘saves the sick man, and if he has any sins he will be forgiven’, The is called the sacrament of the anointing of the sick in the Catholic Church, here we see that the elder is forgiving sins, by the power of the Holy Spirit. The same authority we saw Christ give his apostles, the elders now have.

peace

]

I think the “key” word here is, deliberately! If someone deliberately sins after coming to Christ, I would seriously doubt the sincerity of their salvation! The blood of Christ did not come cheaply, and we do not need to mock Him by sinning after receiving His grace! I for one believe the jury is stil out on mortal men; that are not apostles forgiving sin. But your jury would contain 12catholics, and it would be a unanimous verdict in favor of confession to a priest!

 

[MuddyRocker]

What exactly is deliberate sin? I would think that all sin we commit is deliberate. If it were not deliberate, it would be accidental? I’m sure that there is accidental sin, but much more deliberate.

 

[1beleevr]

What exactly is deliberate sin? I would think that all sin we commit is deliberate. If it were not deliberate, it would be accidental? I’m sure that there is accidental sin, but much more deliberate.

]

Well, think of it this way; when you have an impure thought or you are about to do something that you know is wrong, do you feel convicted or not? Deliberately sinning, I believe, is when you wrongly believe that you can sin without consequence, because you are saved!

 

[1beleevr]

We are no longer saved once we commit ‘sin that leads to death’(1John 5:16), what we deem mortal sin. As Paul says in Hebrews 10:26-27 ‘For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.’

I was refering to James 5:14-15, I understand why you wouldn’t regard v.16 as refering to elders (I’m not to fond of that interpretation either). In v.14-15 The elders give the anointing ‘in the name of the Lord’, the prayer ‘saves the sick man, and if he has any sins he will be forgiven’, The is called the sacrament of the anointing of the sick in the Catholic Church, here we see that the elder is forgiving sins, by the power of the Holy Spirit. The same authority we saw Christ give his apostles, the elders now have.

peace

]

Let me ask you a questionbased on your post: There is an inmate at work, whom I know is a catholic. He is serving a life term for triple murder. Is he still saved?

 

[MuddyRocker]

]

Well, think of it this way; when you have an impure thought or you are about to do something that you know is wrong, do you feel convicted or not? Deliberately sinning, I believe, is when you wrongly believe that you can sin without consequence, because you are saved!

Ok. But if I am convicted but still sin? And if I sin knowing that there are consequences? Anyway, my point is, I think that ALL our sins are deliberate, we sin because we choose to sin, whether we are convicted about it or not. I realize, however, that we have no control over our sinning mechanism; as Pope John Paul II said, “our chooser is broken”! (Not a direct quote - only a paraphrase) Although I, like Paul, want to do what is right - I still choose to sin!

 

[Melkite_Sword]

]

I think the “key” word here is, deliberately! If someone deliberately sins after coming to Christ, I would seriously doubt the sincerity of their salvation! The blood of Christ did not come cheaply, and we do not need to mock Him by sinning after receiving His grace! I for one believe the jury is stil out on mortal men; that are not apostles forgiving sin. But your jury would contain 12catholics, and it would be a unanimous verdict in favor of confession to a priest!

I wouldn’t doubt the sincerity of their salvation, I would acknowledge the fact that the person gave into temptation, not thinking about the consequences at the time…possibly regretting their actions later (that should be an indication of sencerity). Again, in theory according to mainstream protestant doctrine (by grace through faith alone). A person can sincerely believe in Jesus, yet not appreciate his sacrifice, and merely taking advantage of it thinking he is saved because he believes. Deliberate sin is essentally knowing how much Christ loves and died for us, yet sinning anyway, with full knowledge that your sinning. As I’ve also mentioned scripture does tell us that there are two kinds of sin, one that leads to death and another that doesn’t, which seems to indicate that Paul is talking about a more serious kind of sin.

Peace

 

[Melkite_Sword]

]

Let me ask you a questionbased on your post: There is an inmate at work, whom I know is a catholic. He is serving a life term for triple murder. Is he still saved?

We don’t know, we can’t judge who is or isn’t saved, only God knows the heart. We would have to ask why he done it?(his state of mind)… did he know he was sinning, given his state of mind?..He maybe truly repentant of his crime. We don’t know, mortal sin (sin that leads to death) all depends on the intention of the person (deliberate sin).

Peace

 

[Art321]

We don’t know, we can’t judge who is or isn’t saved, only God knows the heart. We would have to ask why he done it?(his state of mind)… did he know he was sinning, given his state of mind?..He maybe truly repentant of his crime. We don’t know, mortal sin (sin that leads to death) all depends on the intention of the person (deliberate sin).

Peace

This is true. All we can do is simply pray to God that all sinners repent.

 

[1beleevr]

We don’t know, we can’t judge who is or isn’t saved, only God knows the heart. We would have to ask why he done it?(his state of mind)… did he know he was sinning, given his state of mind?..He maybe truly repentant of his crime. We don’t know, mortal sin (sin that leads to death) all depends on the intention of the person (deliberate sin).

Peace

]

Wasn’t it you, who said,“If we sin we lose our salvation!”?

 

[1beleevr]

Ok. But if I am convicted but still sin? And if I sin knowing that there are consequences? Anyway, my point is, I think that ALL our sins are deliberate, we sin because we choose to sin, whether we are convicted about it or not. I realize, however, that we have no control over our sinning mechanism; as Pope John Paul II said, “our chooser is broken”! (Not a direct quote - only a paraphrase) Although I, like Paul, want to do what is right - I still choose to sin!

]

Can you count the number of times that you have done something wrong after being saved, and said,"Oops, I didn’t mean to do that! While we are still vulnerable to sin and temptation(and God knows that), we grow more aware of sin and try harder to avoid it, the closer we draw to Jesus! Doesn’t mean we don’t sin, because we do; but ackowledging it right away, going to God in prayer, repenting, confessing, and thanking Him for His forgiveness!(1John 1:9)

 

[Melkite_Sword]

]

Wasn’t it you, who said,“If we sin we lose our salvation!”?

Mortal sin, yes …‘sin that leads to death’. But ‘not all sin leads to death’(1 John 5:16). As I stated in my previous post there are a number of factors for a sin to be mortal. Mortal sin deprives the sinner of sanctifying grace.

Here’s what I believe:

“Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent” (CCC 1857).

Only God knows if sin was committed with full knowledge and intention, we simply don’t know what the individual was thinking at the time except God, therefore we cannot Judge. sincere confession ofcourse restores sanctifying grace to the sinner.

Peace

 

[1beleevr]

Mortal sin, yes …‘sin that leads to death’. But ‘not all sin leads to death’(1 John 5:16). As I stated in my previous post there are a number of factors for a sin to be mortal. Mortal sin deprives the sinner of sanctifying grace.

Here’s what I believe:

“Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent” (CCC 1857).

Only God knows if sin was committed with full knowledge and intention, we simply don’t know what the individual was thinking at the time except God, therefore we cannot Judge. sincere confession ofcourse restores sanctifying grace to the sinner.

Peace

]

If I understand your position, you believe that someone who commits mortal sin, could be at risk of losing their salvation! But, by the grace of our Holy Father, this person could be returned to saved status! Reminds me of a story from a few years ago. A prisoner was being esorted to court, when he slipped his cuffs, got the deputy’s gun, and wound up killing, I believe 4 people before it was said and done! The young lady whom he was holding hostage, prayed with him and read the,“Purpose Driven Life.” Someone asked if this man’s soul could be saved. I replied," With man it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible!" So, we serve a big God, who can show mercy to whomever He chooses to show mercy! Your take?