What do Protestants think the early Christian

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Confused,

I will have to take a look at the whole letter that you present not snippets. this will take some time. I really hate these chapter and verse seperations but understand the purpose.

I will take a look and see if they really line up with scripture.

Currently I believe that christians where alreaady getting it wrong as the gospel spread thru the roman world. Other wise I don’t think there would have been a need for some of the letters to be written by Paul and the others.

on another note I have read your posts for some time and find them very courtious. I appreiciate that.

cruisin
 
The deliberate refusal to study faith history of past people is not charitable either.
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Who said i was refusing to study history… now who is being uncharitable? quit being prejudice of me.
He is bringing up very serious points that if protestants had an open mind to learning the truth about people of times past,
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What really is truth yours or mine? I am assuming he is saying then, is that the only truth possible is from the CC, but please let him speak for himself.
you would have keys to help in understanding our faith today.
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again, you don’t know me so please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. this is again being prejudice.

If you wish to know who I am and what I believe ask. the defense first approach.

well may be not, but do you see how the written word can be easily taken the wrong way.🙂
 
Tim,

Still reading don’t have time to post a reply now. it will take a while. will do it once I have ingested all that text.
 
JerryS said:
It’s not just non-Catholics. A large number of people who consider themselves Catholics don’t believe in the real presence either.
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I never really thought about that. I guess I don’t really think if there is or isn’t a presence. I just take the Eucharist, and it tastes good, so I wouldn’t mind if it were really human flesh.
 
Cruisin, if you look for it - you will find the truth. Many rabid anti Catholics have gone on a mission to completely disprove the teachings and history of catholic church and end up becoming catholic once they start investigating all the available evidence. Many of them have said how shocked they were by what they discovered as it confounded all their prior beliefs about the church. Have a look a Steve Ray’s site

catholic-convert.com/about/why-im-catholic/

At the end of the day we are all entiitled to our own opinion but we are not entitled to our own facts.
 
I meant to add to my last post another notable example of somebody studying to prove the catholic church wrong and then converting to catholicism.

Joshua Betancourt co-authored the book “Is Rome the True Church?” (Crossway Books, 2008). So this guy wrote the book to disprove that jesus founded one church and that is the Catholic church. However, within a year Joshua had converted to catholicism.

There are people in this world who try to avoid the truth and will put their own spin on everything and anything to justify their protestant positions. But ultimately, there comes a point when Christ says to you “come home” and you can no longer justify your stance againts the church that Jesus founded.
 
Cruisin,

These people are being charitable…and Christ did not institute an arbitrary church…He gave us concrete Sacraments…visible outward signs of Christ…

We don’t have beliefs like I imagine seeing on one of these spin-the-wheel games…a person spins the wheel and wherever it lands, gets a point.

It is not about winner/looser…but the fact that Christ came to us for all and He wants us to be all…we also live in an extremely individualistic culture that is arbitrarily set up on a false sense of materialism as well…
 
What everyone needs to take note of here is that Catholics are providing Scriptural evidence, citing the ECFs, some of whom have had direct first hand interactions with the Apostles, Doctors of the Church, and learned theologians with regards to the “Real Presence” and Christ’s commandment to do it in memory of Him. Each time the come back is either dodged, the subject is changed, or the cited response is ignored. All I have seen is Scripture taken out of context, if even used, but for the most part it is just opinions and this is what I believe. No proof, just opinions and ill informed views.
 
Kathleen,

Take a look again at post 121 my response to you. You where making specific accusation about those who disagree with the catholic church and bundling them up all as one.

you said they
The deliberate refusal to study faith history of past people
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. This is absolutely wrong. I love history, but history is also held hostage by the one who records it. so I take it for what it’s worth until I see all of the evidence.

You also said that protestants where narrow minded because we are not catholic… How can this be charitable speak?

YOU also make the claim that the only way to the keys of heaven are thru the Catholic church. Sorry I don’t think the Catholic Church holds the Keys… see

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I went down on my face at his feet as one dead. And he put his right hand on me, saying, Have no fear; I am the first and the last and the Living one;
Re 1:18 And I was dead, and see, I am living for ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hell.

only Christ holds the keys and has the ultimate authority.

and I wasn’t naming names in the post I was trying to speak in general as we are all human and therefore fall to its sinful nature at times. I include myself as well. so I really have to watch and think as I post.

I have been reading this board for more than 1 year. almost daily. I have seen plenty of uncharitable behavior on both sides of the aisle.

I can honestly say that your zeal is commendable, but make sure of who you are responding to. you paint the people who come here with a broad brush because they do not accept your beliefs.

I see many Catholics and non Catholics but not all go a little over board in there zeal and drive off those like me who just want to discuss and learn from a neutral position. I don’t mind lively debate but I am not here to change or convert anybody. Just discuss and learn.

If you wish to continue to treat me as an incompetent …I can always go back to not reading and not logging in.

I can get this treatment form the local Catholic parishes I don’t need it here.
 
wmscott said:
What everyone needs to take note of here is that Catholics are providing Scriptural evidence, citing the ECFs, some of whom have had direct first hand interactions with the Apostles, Doctors of the Church, and learned theologians with regards to the “Real Presence” and Christ’s commandment to do it in memory of Him. Each time the come back is either dodged, the subject is changed, or the cited response is ignored.
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We all dodge the questions and comments we don’t want to address. this seems to be a human fallacy inherent to all of us…

we scan posts that either we agree with or vehemently disagree with and ignore the rest. taking very little time to absorb the post we are responding to and take it out of context. I have had very few questions responded to and answered directly.
All I have seen is Scripture taken out of context,
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This looks like your opinion, based on your world view., but I could be wrong.
if even used, but for the most part it is just opinions and this is what I believe. No proof, just opinions and ill informed views.
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All evidence is based on the opinion of that evidence. but what do I know i’m not catholic. ( was I just uncharitable or just sarcastic)

proof is defined sometimes different from person to person, or they just don’t understand what constitutes proof

are the views ill informed or just not articulated very well?
 
ConfusedTim said:
I meant to add to my last post another notable example of somebody studying to prove the catholic church wrong and then converting to catholicism.

Joshua Betancourt co-authored the book “Is Rome the True Church?” (Crossway Books, 2008). So this guy wrote the book to disprove that jesus founded one church and that is the Catholic church. However, within a year Joshua had converted to catholicism.

There are people in this world who try to avoid the truth and will put their own spin on everything and anything to justify their protestant positions. But ultimately, there comes a point when Christ says to you “come home” and you can no longer justify your stance againts the church that Jesus founded.
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Tim I appreciate the time you took to post this and will take the time to take a look within the next few day. But you realize I could also line up people who have left the Catholic church and disagree with it. I have read many posts here on CAF as well.

I don’t want to start pointing fingers and call people rabid and other names. this is not what i am here for. There are all kinds of zealous people out there who believe and behave based on alot of different things. Remember Paul the one who chased Christians, with zeal,all over Judea and was later called by Christ from the blinding light.

zeal is a good thing that can get us all in allot of trouble sometimes, because when we get wrapped in our zeal we say and do things we shouldn’t. These people with there rabid dog like behavior is discerning. I struggle with this idea of zeal because we are commanded to have it. but where is the line and when do you cross it?

As a brother in Christ I would encourage you to be zealous but do not get so wrapped up that you forget yourself and your purpose. Count yourself as one who is worthy and focus on what is ahead. don’t look to the left or right or behind. but keep your eyes focused on Jesus the one who authored our faith and holds the keys to the door of heaven.

and let us encourage one another all the more as we see the day approaching… Hebrews 10:25
 
ConfusedTim said:
Cruisin, you have probably come across many of the writings of the church fathers who write about what the first Christians belived about the eucharist - there are too many quotations to post but i have provided a couple (see below). The reason why i started this thread is to find out what non catholics believe the first christians thought of the eucharist and why you have that opinion. You have stated that the early church thought the eucharist was symbolic - can you provide some references that support your view? All the writings i have ever come across suggest the opposite.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to the Romans 7:3)

Tim I read this letter and found it interesting. It almost looks like Ignatius was trying to get himself Martyred. To me this verse may or may not prove real presence since there is no direct language to the Eucharist. I can understand, based on world view How one can extrapolate the real presence from it. I am all so interest as a side note it looks like he left the church at Smyrna to their own devices

St. Justin the Martyr (c. 100 - 165 A.D.)
For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH our blood and flesh is nourished, IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS. (First Apology, 66)
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Understanding that Justin spent the first 30 years of his life trained in the Greek culture before his conversion. I wonder, How much of what he believed and taught as a christian was influenced by those first 30 years.

From my understanding, the practice of eating the offering meat to place the god into the body, thus infusing god and human together through the partaking of the offering, was not a foreign practice to those who worshiped in the pagan temples.

I have a hard time believing that the Greek culture and parts of pagan practice didn’t creep into the church.

These are my initial thoughts to your links… I will keep reading.
 
Cruisin,

I made no reference regarding the Church and the keys to heaven…and I have studied Vatican II documents for 5 years…various religions and people of good will walk on the path to salvation…

I am also referring to a previous poster about some fundamentalists who do not want to read or study early church history…I have experienced it a number of times…

And it is good to read the development of faith and culture in ancient times…to get the context of various images you may hold…

Stick to my convictions here…and don’t see it or others as uncharitable…I do believe Christ did objectively found one church.
 
These posting from Catholics have been charitable. From the standpoint we make the clarion call from antiquity to choose life and not death. The Catholic Charity comes from showing not forcing one to keep from falling over a cliff into self destruction.

The Catholic Clarion call is to swim to the Rock of Christ and remain there so that when the storms come you do not get moved by every wind of doctrine that comes in every age, but to remain steadfast in One faith, One baptistm, One Lord, of one body of Jesus Christ which is his Catholic Church.

Now this may appear to be a boast to the unlearned, but sacred scripture and sacred Tradition teaches this apostolic faith.

What our guest appears to be introducing here, comes from a seductive self freedom that denies the “Truth” of Jesus Christ. As if to seduce those who cling to the Rock, to come out into the Chaos of the world waters, to be tossed and swayed from every wind of doctrine that comes.

The Catholic church does not force anyone to come to the Lord, the Lord calls his own each by name, and we hear his voice. The seduction from the wisdom and freedom that the world gives in its truth, does not nor will it ever measure up to the Truth of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church proclaims a real living “True presence” of Jesus Christ in our midst from his body, blood, soul and divinity. God has never left us “orphans”.

A symbolic Jesus never existed nor does exists.

Peace and Love be with you
 
cruisin said:
I don’t need to ingest my God and put him in me every week, as the pagans did, I already have him in the form of the Holy Spirit.
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cruisin said:
From my understanding, the practice of eating the offering meat to place the god into the body, thus infusing god and human together through the partaking of the offering, was not a foreign practice to those who worshiped in the pagan temples.
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Okay, what was that supposed to accomplish in the long run? And, could anybody participate in this? Say an Indian or an Ethiopian was visiting Persia. Could they participate in the eating of a god?
 
I think the Early Church placed a very high degree of importance on the Eucharist, as we can see in the NT (especially the letter of St Paul to the Corinthians) and the writings of the Church Fathers. I think there is strong evidence the Early Church regarded the Eucharist not just as a symbol but also as of taking part in Christ’s body and blood. The church in the Middle Ages developed a somewhat different approach based on scholastic philosophy (transubstantiation) which the Reformers rejected but some still maintained the Eucharist was not just symbolic but also participated in a real way in Christ’s body and blood (especially Lutherans and Anglicans in the Catholic tradition).
 
Okay, what was that supposed to accomplish in the long run? And, could anybody participate in this? Say an Indian or an Ethiopian was visiting Persia. Could they participate in the eating of a god?
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The point I was trying to make was that this concept was pretty well practiced and none by those who did not follow the Yawah. Jews never practiced this that i know of. at least I have never found any indication that they did but would have been aware of the practice.

To be direct here the question would be; what separates

The God from the other gods?
  1. Since your chiming in on a conversation between Tim and I and this the second quote was in direct response to his links… What I wrote, if you would have read and tried to understand the whole post, was my initial thoughts on Justin, culture, and its influence on the beliefs of the early christians. If you would notice that I tried to leave the door open for further discussion and processing, since is was late last night when I wrote it and i wanted to go to bed.
I will expand on this later if you wish. this will take some time and I don’t have it now.
 
cruisin said:
We all dodge the questions and comments we don’t want to address. this seems to be a human fallacy inherent to all of us…

we scan posts that either we agree with or vehemently disagree with and ignore the rest. taking very little time to absorb the post we are responding to and take it out of context. I have had very few questions responded to and answered directly.

This looks like your opinion, based on your world view., but I could be wrong.

All evidence is based on the opinion of that evidence. but what do I know i’m not catholic. ( was I just uncharitable or just sarcastic)

proof is defined sometimes different from person to person, or they just don’t understand what constitutes proof

are the views ill informed or just not articulated very well?
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Thanks for making my point even more.
 
Yes…and by the way, WmScott, thank you for your kind words regarding my daughter…this thread is a keeper that I will some day hope to share with her…

God bless!
 
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