C
cruisin
Guest
kathleen May i PM you later. I am about to go off topic and I dont’ want to derail this thread for the others?
- Status
E
eucharisteo
Guest
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I am nodding off…but your comments, Cruisin, brought so much to mind…everything is interconnected to make us what we are today…
BTW, are you from Texas or around such parts?
Nighty night!!
BTW, are you from Texas or around such parts?
Nighty night!!
C
cruisin
Guest
Hope you had a good nights rest kathleen. No i’m nt from texas but i am in the central time zone. I have question. Do you get all of your knowledge of history from a Catholic perspective? I noticed the books you are currently reading are written by Catholics.
Here lately i have been trying to get several different perspectives. I believe that any writer writes with some level of biase. some more and some less.
I agree everything is interconnect as the church developed. Even the turms liturgy and dogma are not jewish terms. the term exergesis came from the greek philosphers. i was reading this yesterday so i think I got it right.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, I do. There is another fellow who has materials for me to read…Triparate?..not sure of spelling. Calvin. I did take a course on ecumenism with a bishop who actually was at Vatican II. But he primarily covered Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and some issues with Orthodoxy. We were also taught that the more Protestants break off more and more of the 7 sacraments, the more they are ‘out there’ as ecclesial communities and inherently continue to fragment from one another. I think the USA has about 34,000 churches, sects and communities.
I am a mother and I don’t like it if one of my own can’t come to the dinner table. I wish we could all be at the banquet table of the Lord, which as you can figure out, is the Mass.
There was both sides to blame on the Reformation. There is a thread running right now that is trying to bring to light the issue of Martin Luther changing the Word of God…we are saved by faith alone…
When faith has a social and moral dimension to it…we will be judged by how we treated others…I was hungry but you did not feed me, I was thirsty but you did not give me drink, and so on…
There is also the Catholic tradition of how to understand Scripture. And in my transcendent way, its position speaks truth to me. Do I believe Catholics are better than Protestants? No, absolutely not.
Holiness is the quest for each person. People can be given alot of graces and help, but not take advantage of them. Others do not have the sacraments like we do, but make full use of all the graces God gives them in their state of life.
I like Psalm 24 defining who it is who climbs the mountain of the Lord…with sincere heart, not lying…loving God above all things…Love is transcendent…I have met pagan people who have God’s heart but have difficulty relating to the Word of God or church.
So it is so important that we always be open to Christ present in each person around us. That is hard to do. This Lent I am really trying to slow down, and keep my old self moving…getting the arthritis now, you know…
I believe all of us Christians in the USA need to see our faith here for what it is: All fragmented up with the misuse of the sacred Word of God, misinformation – both sides-- and the need for great dialogue. What our country would be if we Christians were all united!
It is imperative we listen to one another and read other sources. There are people here on CAF who are highly educated in various areas, those even with Ph.D.'s, other clerics…I know my former Dominican pastor has been on, and they are schooled in the erudite tradition…very scholarly. So, if I have a question, I am always at peace speaking to them, because they truly have a good grasp of the full picture and in context.
Problem with early church fathers is that most only give a part to the whole truth…the universal truth needs to be transcendent and its teaching of Jesus fit all people, all cultures and regions…also why things go slow in Rome…so people quote let’s say, St. Augustine…and it is faulty…there is another church father with a teaching that is correct, but the two blend…and it is the school of thought that enters into councils…they came about when the issues came clearly to the forefront and then were resolved.
There was a council immediately prior to the Protestant Reformation, and one pope called a certain region of Catholic bishops as heretical…it goes on all the time.
The issue that came up in the late 60’s and 70’s for awhile was liberation theology, which is a praxis…and its theology was proven faulty. I actually witnessed that one…So what i am saying here I know very well errors come within the Catholic church, but give them, unfortunately, 20 years and it will be fixed. So I tend to remain with primarily Catholic sources for that reason in that problems eventually get resolved to continue to provide for us the True Christ, True God and True Man…Christology.
I am a mother and I don’t like it if one of my own can’t come to the dinner table. I wish we could all be at the banquet table of the Lord, which as you can figure out, is the Mass.
There was both sides to blame on the Reformation. There is a thread running right now that is trying to bring to light the issue of Martin Luther changing the Word of God…we are saved by faith alone…
When faith has a social and moral dimension to it…we will be judged by how we treated others…I was hungry but you did not feed me, I was thirsty but you did not give me drink, and so on…
There is also the Catholic tradition of how to understand Scripture. And in my transcendent way, its position speaks truth to me. Do I believe Catholics are better than Protestants? No, absolutely not.
Holiness is the quest for each person. People can be given alot of graces and help, but not take advantage of them. Others do not have the sacraments like we do, but make full use of all the graces God gives them in their state of life.
I like Psalm 24 defining who it is who climbs the mountain of the Lord…with sincere heart, not lying…loving God above all things…Love is transcendent…I have met pagan people who have God’s heart but have difficulty relating to the Word of God or church.
So it is so important that we always be open to Christ present in each person around us. That is hard to do. This Lent I am really trying to slow down, and keep my old self moving…getting the arthritis now, you know…
I believe all of us Christians in the USA need to see our faith here for what it is: All fragmented up with the misuse of the sacred Word of God, misinformation – both sides-- and the need for great dialogue. What our country would be if we Christians were all united!
It is imperative we listen to one another and read other sources. There are people here on CAF who are highly educated in various areas, those even with Ph.D.'s, other clerics…I know my former Dominican pastor has been on, and they are schooled in the erudite tradition…very scholarly. So, if I have a question, I am always at peace speaking to them, because they truly have a good grasp of the full picture and in context.
Problem with early church fathers is that most only give a part to the whole truth…the universal truth needs to be transcendent and its teaching of Jesus fit all people, all cultures and regions…also why things go slow in Rome…so people quote let’s say, St. Augustine…and it is faulty…there is another church father with a teaching that is correct, but the two blend…and it is the school of thought that enters into councils…they came about when the issues came clearly to the forefront and then were resolved.
There was a council immediately prior to the Protestant Reformation, and one pope called a certain region of Catholic bishops as heretical…it goes on all the time.
The issue that came up in the late 60’s and 70’s for awhile was liberation theology, which is a praxis…and its theology was proven faulty. I actually witnessed that one…So what i am saying here I know very well errors come within the Catholic church, but give them, unfortunately, 20 years and it will be fixed. So I tend to remain with primarily Catholic sources for that reason in that problems eventually get resolved to continue to provide for us the True Christ, True God and True Man…Christology.
E
etude
Guest
I can not quote any great references, but I think of “timelessness of God”.
When I sin and offend our God, am I not crucifying Jesus, again. Perhaps daily I crucify him on the same cross.
Then I ask for forgiveness… Jesus with his inexhaustible mercy, pours out his blood again and again, everyday, every moment we ask.
Lets Trust in his Love and his Mercy
P
Proallen
Guest
No they didn’t see it as a symbol, they saw it as what Christ said it was in the New Testament; the body and blood of Christ. No symbolism, no transubstantiation, no mental gymnastics for us to try and figure out. The bread and wine are exactly what Jesus says they are.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I don’t want to spend my life on God arbitrating this and that…the world is in too much need of the life of Christ and the Gospel.
He gave us the seven sacraments, concrete signs with His working presence from within.
I can go to my church any day I want. We have the means to get in, even if it is locked. I go in, look at the altar and see the sanctuary light…just like in ancient days…
The sanctuary light says the Divine Presence of God is here in the tabernacle. He is here alive among us…just as in ancient days.
He gave us the seven sacraments, concrete signs with His working presence from within.
I can go to my church any day I want. We have the means to get in, even if it is locked. I go in, look at the altar and see the sanctuary light…just like in ancient days…
The sanctuary light says the Divine Presence of God is here in the tabernacle. He is here alive among us…just as in ancient days.
C
cruisin
Guest
Kathleen,
I am glad you find solace in what you believe in the tabernacle, liturgy and the mass. But I believe that Hebrews refutes these ideas.
Christ told them woman at the well what God wants;
Joh 4:23 But the time is coming, and is even now here, when the true worshippers will give worship to the Father in the true way of the spirit, for these are the worshippers desired by the Father.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit: then let his worshippers give him worship in the true way of the spirit.
You use the term ancient of days. As I think of this term I think of Abraham in the wilderness who had the whole earth as his tabernacle. Was Davids tabernacle the temple in Jerusalem or the field of his father? How about the prophet on the mountain who challenged the prophets of Bale. 1 man against many.
I believe the Jewish temple was never meant to be permanent. It was set up by God for a purpose. the book of Hebrews shows how the Temple worked before he came and works after he left us and a glimpse of what Christ is doing. That is nothing. he sits. the use of the word sits is relevant for us because it tells us that what Christ finished on the Cross is in deed complete. There is no more lambs to be offered.The vail is ripped and I now have the ability to go into the Holy of Holies.
I find it pointed that Revelation and the vision of the Lamb that looks like it has been slain is used so often to support the idea of perpetual sacrifice. I think it does the opposite. refutes it. The vision is passed tense. It shows that the work is done. If it would show support then this verse and Hebrews would be in opposition to each other. But that is my view. and agree to disagree at this point.
I love what David said in psalms 51:
Ps 51:18 You have no desire for an offering or I would give it; you have no delight in burned offerings.
Ps 51:19 The offerings of God are a broken spirit; a broken and sorrowing heart, O God, you will not put from you.
Isa 6:1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord seated in his place, high and lifted up, and the Temple was full of the wide skirts of his robe.
Isa 6:2 Over him were the winged ones: every one had six wings; two for covering his face, two for covering his feed, and two for flight.
Isa 6:3 And one said in a loud voice to another, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of armies: all the earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the bases of the door-pillars were shaking at the sound of his cry, and the house was full of smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then I said, The curse is on me, and my fate is destruction; for I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of armies.
Isa 6:6 Then a winged one came to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from off the altar with the fire-spoon.
Isa 6:7 And after touching my mouth with it, he said, See, your lips have been touched with this; and your evil is taken away, and you are made clean from sin.
This passage in Isaiah show to me how only from heaven itself can pure cleansing from sin come for me. Notice how the prophet of God claims to be unclean and God agrees.
I don’t believe that anything I do can release me from sin. I can’t work hard enough or do enough things in this life to redeem myself. Adam only sinned once to loose his life. How much more do I deserve to loose mine. Adam could have been absolutely perfect for the rest of his life, but he still lost his life because of that one moment in time. I also believe that the life he lost was not his physical one but his spiritual one. but that is another discussion for another time.
It is only by the work of Christ Himself on the cross that cleanses me. and because of this I am proud to be call His servant. Once a slave to sin but now a slave to righteousness.
A
adstrinity
Guest
The vail is torn, but, what makes you think you have the ability to enter into the Holy of Holies?
And neither do Catholics believe that one can release one from sins by works. But, I’m glad you are His servant and His slave, that does indeed imply that you do His work and empty yourself.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I have shared enough for now, but it was never intended that we be rid of liturgy or the priesthood or rituals…rituals are part of life that help us publicly integrate our beliefs into deeply held convictions, as well as create culture within a society.
I guess I said it before that the Jewish person’s life revolved around the breaking of the bread and their form of worship, which was prescribed to them by God Himself…I think a great lesson that we need to listen to consecrated souls as to what is pleasing to God.
Rituals can also be means to express truth and beauty in many ways that also involve the use of environment and art.
There is Soren on our CAF site who got his Master’s in Hebrews of the New Testament under one of the 8 top scholars in the world. He is working on more advanced studies. I may see if he would like to join in.
Good night!
Kathleen
I guess I said it before that the Jewish person’s life revolved around the breaking of the bread and their form of worship, which was prescribed to them by God Himself…I think a great lesson that we need to listen to consecrated souls as to what is pleasing to God.
Rituals can also be means to express truth and beauty in many ways that also involve the use of environment and art.
There is Soren on our CAF site who got his Master’s in Hebrews of the New Testament under one of the 8 top scholars in the world. He is working on more advanced studies. I may see if he would like to join in.
Good night!
Kathleen
Y
YADA
Guest
read your ‘something’ … the header for your page is incorrect … it should be “The only ideaology is the fact that the catholics are wrong”
IMHO your scholarship lacks rigor …
and starts with an opinion of fact upon which you set out to prove …
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Dokimas
For you to say you do not care what St Ireneaus said is not being open to the truth.
St. Ireneaus was a pupil of St. Polycarp. St. Polycarp was a pupil of the apostle whom Jesus loved, St. John the Evangelist.
Don’t you think St. John’s lineage would be most faithful in passing on the truth of Jesus Christ???
This is why people who doubt the Eucharist need to get their ducks in order and start searching the truth by going to the roots of faith.
For you to say you do not care what St Ireneaus said is not being open to the truth.
St. Ireneaus was a pupil of St. Polycarp. St. Polycarp was a pupil of the apostle whom Jesus loved, St. John the Evangelist.
Don’t you think St. John’s lineage would be most faithful in passing on the truth of Jesus Christ???
This is why people who doubt the Eucharist need to get their ducks in order and start searching the truth by going to the roots of faith.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
I think many Catholics fail to realize that the Protestants do NOT accept anything after scripture because that is when they were taught that the first apostates mixed paganism with true Christianity as told by the bible only. Of course we know that the bible never calls itself the fullness of the faith handed to us by the apostles through the Church…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
It comes from the Evil One who says “I will not serve”. And following malicious characterizations also has people in bondage and fear.
The greatest scourge of our country comes from fundamentalism and its use of slavery. It is internationally known. And it is used by the militant secularists in our country to completely silence and marginalized Christianity. They make no end of the clergy abuse while they promote abortion and pornography and the sexual abuse of women and children that is atleast 100 times that of the clergy. You tell them that and they throw it back and you refusing to listen…they are far more anti-human than anybody and control so much right now in our country. We are praying for the truth…
People try to show the Catholic Church approve of slavery when it in fact condemned it…and there were those lay people who refused to listen, the same type who did the abuse in the Inquisition…but that has to be taken in context as well knowing that the country in mind was overcome by a foreign religious power for 700 years…it is virtuous in the fact that they overcame it, their own abuse and all.
I read of a man who was just ordained a priest who came from a fundamentalist background. He would have ongoing setbacks because of the indoctrination that was put into him. He knows now, of course, that he did the right thing.
And that is why I keep going on with fundamentalists is that they have go back to theirs and our roots. When they deny that, then it shows me other things. I am praying this Lent for everyone on CAF as well. What I see in protestantism more than anything is divorce. It is a pattern. God hates divorce. Divorcing from the early Christians and not wanting to know the truth…I see it all the time.
Jesus Christ, please give us the grace to know the truth about you, your church, and each other and make us one as you have always desired.
The greatest scourge of our country comes from fundamentalism and its use of slavery. It is internationally known. And it is used by the militant secularists in our country to completely silence and marginalized Christianity. They make no end of the clergy abuse while they promote abortion and pornography and the sexual abuse of women and children that is atleast 100 times that of the clergy. You tell them that and they throw it back and you refusing to listen…they are far more anti-human than anybody and control so much right now in our country. We are praying for the truth…
People try to show the Catholic Church approve of slavery when it in fact condemned it…and there were those lay people who refused to listen, the same type who did the abuse in the Inquisition…but that has to be taken in context as well knowing that the country in mind was overcome by a foreign religious power for 700 years…it is virtuous in the fact that they overcame it, their own abuse and all.
I read of a man who was just ordained a priest who came from a fundamentalist background. He would have ongoing setbacks because of the indoctrination that was put into him. He knows now, of course, that he did the right thing.
And that is why I keep going on with fundamentalists is that they have go back to theirs and our roots. When they deny that, then it shows me other things. I am praying this Lent for everyone on CAF as well. What I see in protestantism more than anything is divorce. It is a pattern. God hates divorce. Divorcing from the early Christians and not wanting to know the truth…I see it all the time.
Jesus Christ, please give us the grace to know the truth about you, your church, and each other and make us one as you have always desired.
C
cruisin
Guest
A
adstrinity
Guest
Ah, so, it is your erronious assumption and your mistranslation of the Bible that makes you think that. That’s all I needed to know.
I’m not saying we don’t do works, my dear, but, we do not believe that we can release ourselves from our sins by our works. That’s the truth. I speak because that is what the Church teaches.
Indulgences. Please look up from a Catholic source what those are so you understand.
I’m not saying we don’t do works, my dear, but, we do not believe that we can release ourselves from our sins by our works. That’s the truth. I speak because that is what the Church teaches.
Indulgences. Please look up from a Catholic source what those are so you understand.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
But without works a servant is absolutely useless.
C
cruisin
Guest
I said I would agree to disagree.
Never said I had it completely right. If you wish to interpret the same as the your church go right ahead i’m not stopping you. you wanted to know why i beleived what I believed.
Go get a life. geesh…
I am only eroneous, based on your prejudiced assumptions because I am not Catholic.
I have taken a look at the Catholic church. I have lived with’m for 40 years. Don’t you dare accuse me of not knowing or understanding when you have no clue who I am.
Don’t make prejudiced charges, it makes you look rediculous and unworthy of my attention.
I will not further respond to any of your posts.
Never said I had it completely right. If you wish to interpret the same as the your church go right ahead i’m not stopping you. you wanted to know why i beleived what I believed.
Go get a life. geesh…
I am only eroneous, based on your prejudiced assumptions because I am not Catholic.
I have taken a look at the Catholic church. I have lived with’m for 40 years. Don’t you dare accuse me of not knowing or understanding when you have no clue who I am.
Don’t make prejudiced charges, it makes you look rediculous and unworthy of my attention.
I will not further respond to any of your posts.
D
Dokimas
Guest
The roots of the Christian faith is Jesus and His disciples. The farther from the root, the greater the chance of slight misunderstandings creeping in.
- Status