What do Religious people say to this?

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I would like to share this article with you guys, and please, do not bash me. I am in no way trying to disprove/prove, argue/agree with any of you. I am just wondering what religious people thoughts are about this.
Interesting breakthrough, but it doesn’t affect my belief in God.
 
Oops! I miss a day or 2 of this thread, and miss a thoroughly entertaining (and very naughty! :tsktsk:) indulgence in Darwinism vs. Intelligent Design argument! Ah well…

Leo Sullivan - poor fellow (second review). I can’t help but think he’s missing a point or 2, although he gets a couple as well…:clapping:.

There was a humanist/rationalist Jesus version of the Passion on British telly a few years ago… got to say, I can’t see the point, and didn’t bother watching. Jesus brushed off materialism like cobwebs, something lost on many, I think…
 
The difference is that computer code can’t grow it’s own hardware to run on, nor can computers replicate. Every single human being alive is a transitional phase in evolution. You are a transitional phase between your mother and father and your children. That is not true of computers.

Computers are also not individuals. Human beings are. By exchanging DNA with your partner, you create novel combinations that have never existed before. Again, there is no thought or mind behind this. You and your wife simply initiate a process. You do not need to design your children or engineer them in any conscious way, it simply happens all by itself.
We are discussing the DNA code. The code is of a mind. It is powerful and manifests its super capabilties many different ways.
 
I think there are certain formalities, demarcation lines between different subjects, that should be observed if we are to proceed in any kind of organized fashion.

Just so you know, no one in acquaintence with the facts established by Darwin could believe that anyone else is less evolved than he or she. Every lifeform on this planet has been evolving for the same length of time, around four billion years.
Just to drag back to this original post…

I’m sure we’ll proceed in our usual shambolic fashion, really. The more oppressive periods of Catholic dominance lead to a similarly oppressive period of materialist dominance - but nothing has been stamped out in either case, which personally I’m glad about. We should always have a choice, although I wish we had more chance of having fairly informed choice (as unlikely now as in any age, if not less so, I think). But I’m a believer in free will…

Assuming evolution is true, you’re right. What people really mean is more successfully adapted, I suppose - although I’ve never been especially convinced that the whole ‘my DNA will survive cos I’m fecund and effective’ leads to anything that could be considered success in logical terms for the ‘successfully adapted’, or for that matter their descendants, at all…

And lets face it, the Amoeba isn’t doing too bad! :whistle:
 
I would like to share this article with you guys, and please, do not bash me. I am in no way trying to disprove/prove, argue/agree with any of you. I am just wondering what religious people thoughts are about this.

guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/20/craig-venter-synthetic-life-form
Please, take the time to read it, because it is actually very, very interesting, and well, historic.
“defining moment in the history of biology and biotechnology”, Mark Bedau, a philosopher at Reed College in Portland, Oregon, told Science.
My first comment is that a lot of “intelligent design” went into the job. *Not one *reaction happened by accident or random chance. And even then, he was basically copying or modifying a pre-existing blueprint.

Secondly he still required the shell, or the rest of the bacterium to have any chance of keeping the original genome alive.

Third I’d like to see a bit more information before assuming or accepting he’s created an entirely new “life form”. The media has a tendency to hype things well beyond what has actually been achieved, espeicially if they think they can keep God out of the picture.

Ken Ham of “Answers in Genesis” had this to say about it, in an article entitled “Get your own DNA”.

*Well, I woke up yesterday morning to news headlines on television (and then seeing many of the same claims in newspaper and web reports) that scientists had supposedly made some sort of life in a laboratory. For instance, Science News blarred that the scientists used “a made-from-scratch genome,” which was not made “from scratch” at all—the reporter gives a false impression as to what really happened.

Going back a couple of years, in February 2008, AiG commented on this same sort of research headed by the same scientist stating (see Getting a Life?):

According to media reports, a team of researchers is on the verge of creating artificial life. DNA specialist Craig Venter, president of the J. Craig Venter Institute in the U.S., is “poised to announce the creation of the first new artificial life form [a synthetic chromosome] on Earth,” reported the UK’s Guardian.

Georgia Purdom, a geneticist at Answers in Genesis–U.S., observes that, in this instance, life is not being created from “scratch”—it is being “rebuilt.” In assembling this man-made chromosome, scientists (using their intelligence, it should be noted) use a sequence that is modeled after a preexisting bacterial chromosome, which uses preexisting DNA bases. Then they place the chromosome into a preexisting bacterial cell.

In other words, concludes Purdom, all the components already existed. She adds that these components were created instantaneously by God, not through the many years of toiling by scientists.

In 2007, Dr. Georgia Purdom wrote this related article along with this article on synthetic life. And in 2008, this article, “‘Creating’ Life in the Lab,” appeared on AiG’s website.

So what is this latest piece of news that has created headlines around the world? An article from Science Express states:
For 15 years, J. Craig Venter has chased a dream: to build a genome from scratch and use it to make synthetic life. Now, he and his team at the J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) in Rockville, Maryland, and San Diego, California, say they have realized that dream. In this week’s Science Express they describe the stepwise creation of a bacterial chromosome and the successful transfer of it into a bacterium, where it replaced the native DNA. Powered by the synthetic genome, that microbial cell began replicating and making a new set of proteins.
However, some of the popular media printed headlines that made it sound like something new had been created—giving the distinct impression that man had created life in a laboratory. For example, “It’s Alive! Artificial DNA controls life” was the headline for an MSNBC article.

For what these scientists really accomplished, I urge you to go to today’s News to Note article on our website that will give you the details.

But, basically, we could put it this way:

Scientists (in what is obviously a significant technological achievement—well, for man it is anyway) took an existing bacterium and copied its genetic information (that God Created), based on the genetic code God created, using intricately designed machines, and yeast cells (that God created). They spent $40 million and used the research skills of 20 highly qualified and intelligent scientists over 10 years. They copied this information and then reconstructed the genome, inserting the equivalent of a “name tag”’ and then, after taking out the DNA, inserted the “synthetic” genes into another already-existing bacterium, so that the complicated machinery of the living bacterium (that God had created) could then enable this cell to live and replicate—as per the instructions on the genes that God put there in the first place and that these scientists copied!

Now the lead scientist for this project, J.Craig Venter, who is considered one of the leading scientists of the 21st century, does not claim what has been done has anything to do with the origin of life. He has certainly accomplished an incredible technological achievement—though, there are obvious ethical implications that no doubt will be discussed for years to come.

However, some of the popular media has tried to use this to (falsely) insinuate that scientists have basically created life in a lab. That is simply not true. All they have done, as I have stated, is copy the DNA God had already created. If scientists want to “create” their own life, they need to go and make their own code system—their own “DNA”! As I say, if you want to make this an origin of life issue, then go and get your own DNA!*
 
We are discussing the DNA code. The code is of a mind. It is powerful and manifests its super capabilties many different ways.
If DNA is of a mind, it would need to be demonstrated that it has some level of awareness, would it not?
 
If DNA is of a mind, it would need to be demonstrated that it has some level of awareness, would it not?
He didn’t mean DNA has a mind of it’s own, but it is the product of an intelligent mind.

Your motor car is the result of a mind (many minds actually). Does it show that it has some level of awareness? Not a bit.
 
If DNA is of a mind, it would need to be demonstrated that it has some level of awareness, would it not?
And of course there is the obvious rejoinder that since you yourself have some level of awareness, then you also must be of a mind.
 
If DNA is of a mind, it would need to be demonstrated that it has some level of awareness, would it not?
If I write my thoughts on a piece of paper in a code that I have the key, I have to provide you the message plus the key. That is the mechanism. The language, symbols and thoughts originated in my mind.

I pushed (if you will) my intelligence onto the transmission medium.
 
If I write my thoughts on a piece of paper in a code that I have the key, I have to provide you the message plus the key. That is the mechanism. The language, symbols and thoughts originated in my mind.

I pushed (if you will) my intelligence onto the transmission medium.
DNA doesn’t actually tell anyone anything. The proteins created by DNA are not receiving instructions and setting off to work, they are the product of a process of DNA tanscription and translation. There is no receiver deciphering messages. The process is more akin to a fax machine printing out a message than the deciphering of a code by a mind.

As you’ll no doubt point out, the fax machine or computer at the end of the line must actually decode the pulse modulated messages it is receiving, but I’m sure you’ll agree that computer processors are not conscious.
 
DNA doesn’t actually tell anyone anything. The proteins created by DNA are not receiving instructions and setting off to work, they are the product of a process of DNA tanscription and translation. There is no receiver deciphering messages. The process is more akin to a fax machine printing out a message than the deciphering of a code by a mind.

As you’ll no doubt point out, the fax machine or computer at the end of the line must actually decode the pulse modulated messages it is receiving, but I’m sure you’ll agree that computer processors are not conscious.
Fax machines print out a message because there is an intelligence at each end ciphering and deciphering the message on the fax. From there action is taken. Without the intelligences, there would be no fax machine, and no message. There wouldn’t be any need for either.

The fax machine itself, which again requires intelligent design to change text to electronic signals and back again, results from intelligence. Intelligence is involved every step of the way. The machine itself might not be intelligent, but it is the product of intelligence.
 
Fax machines print out a message because there is an intelligence at each end ciphering and deciphering the message on the fax. From there action is taken.
Not really. They print out messages because they are activated by a series of pulse code modulated protocols that they are pre-programmed to respond to. The human being responds to the printed message after the fact and after it has been decoded into a written language by machinery that has no reticular consciousness.
Without the intelligences, there would be no fax machine, and no message. There wouldn’t be any need for either.
DNA has existed long before any intelligence that we have direct evidence of. DNA does not operate according to any of the principles of intelligence. We know from the research done by men like Lorenz, Gaston Julia and Benoit Madelbrot that complex behaviour can arise from simple reiteration. DNA replication is an example of reiteration.

Now, have you ever seen a fax machine that can give birth to baby fax machines? That is where the link in your analogy breaks down.
The fax machine itself, which again requires intelligent design to change text to electronic signals and back again, results from intelligence. Intelligence is involved every step of the way. The machine itself might not be intelligent, but it is the product of intelligence.
Yes, but like I said, Fax machines are not reiterating.
 
Not really. They print out messages because they are activated by a series of pulse code modulated protocols that they are pre-programmed to respond to. The human being responds to the printed message after the fact and after it has been decoded into a written language by machinery that has no reticular consciousness.

DNA has existed long before any intelligence that we have direct evidence of. DNA does not operate according to any of the principles of intelligence. We know from the research done by men like Lorenz, Gaston Julia and Benoit Madelbrot that complex behaviour can arise from simple reiteration. DNA replication is an example of reiteration.

Now, have you ever seen a fax machine that can give birth to baby fax machines? That is where the link in your analogy breaks down.

Yes, but like I said, Fax machines are not reiterating.
Linguistics are used to study DNA. DNA is a language pure and simple. Languages come from a mind.
 
Linguistics are used to study DNA. DNA is a language pure and simple. Languages come from a mind.
Then if that is the case DNA is analogus to language. If a language needs someone to send and receive the messages then the analogy is incomplete.

Who tells the DNA in the Langerhans Islet Cells when it’s time to produce insulin?

No one does. It’s a matter of negative feedback. There are complex mechanisms of receptors to changes in blood glucose level that stimualte insulin or glucagon production. There is no mind involved, only chemistry. There is absolutely no evidence of any decision making process involved.

Like I said, communications theory is outside my field, but what I can tell you is that either DNA is not a language or that language does not need to be a product of a mind.
 
Then if that is the case DNA is analogus to language. If a language needs someone to send and receive the messages then the analogy is incomplete.

Who tells the DNA in the Langerhans Islet Cells when it’s time to produce insulin?

No one does. It’s a matter of negative feedback. There are complex mechanisms of receptors to changes in blood glucose level that stimualte insulin or glucagon production. There is no mind involved, only chemistry. There is absolutely no evidence of any decision making process involved.

Like I said, communications theory is outside my field, but what I can tell you is that either DNA is not a language or that language does not need to be a product of a mind.
A set of instructions can be complicated but replicate according to instructions. A very simplistic analogy is that old standard computer programme:

10 print “potatoes are best utilized in the formulation of potato cakes”
20 goto 10

Then you just have to press RUN.

Nonetheless, the programming has to take place, and the computers don’t just invent themselves - that would just be silly 😉
 
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