What do Roman Catholics want or need to know about Eastern Catholicism?

[J.J]

CDB1718 -
Re: your question for source material for historic maps as relates to Eastern Churches –
a copy of “Historical Atlas of Central Europe” by Paul Robert Magocsi will provide exactly what you are looking for.

Copyright University of Washington Press; Published in Canada by University of Toronto

Includes: maps, historical by era/dates; detailed data re: Churches; changing National boundaries & ethnic groups, etc.

Happy Reading!

 

[Peter_J]

Incidentally, did anyone see this week’s EWTN Live? Topics include the fact that ECs receive the sacrament of baptism, chrismation/confirmation, and the eucharist all together in infancy.

 

[CDB1718]

Will you be able to share this pamphlet when it is done on the internet? I would like to read it.

Yes, it will be available under a creative commons license.

CDB1718 Any news on this?

I realized I have three different pamphlets trying to fit in to one. Having a pamphlet for Roman Catholics is different from having a pamphlet for non-Catholics. I’m editing in my spare time to reflect the intended audience. It’s a lot of pruning.

CDB1718 -
Re: your question for source material for historic maps as relates to Eastern Churches –
a copy of “Historical Atlas of Central Europe” by Paul Robert Magocsi will provide exactly what you are looking for.

Copyright University of Washington Press; Published in Canada by University of Toronto

Includes: maps, historical by era/dates; detailed data re: Churches; changing National boundaries & ethnic groups, etc.

Happy Reading!

Thank you! I’ll look for it!

 

[CDB1718]

I think all that Latins need to know is that there are the Eastern Churches (i.e. Greek) and then the Oriental Churches (Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, Armenian, etc.), and that the Eastern and Oriental Churches are distinct and unique from each other.

Do you have any references for this point? I want to quote an official text.

 

[Peter_J]

Do you have any references for this point? I want to quote an official text.

Do you mean just a list of Greek Catholic and Oriental Catholic churches?

 

[dvdjs]

Those first two, Melkites and Byzantine Catholics, fall under the larger category of Greek Catholics. (Technically, the Byzantine Catholic Church in America is part of the Ruthenian Catholic Church, but that’s a rather minor technicality.) There are a total of 14 Greek Catholic Churches (including the UGCC which is the largest) with a combined membership of 8 million or so.

Actually, the “Byzantine Catholic Church in America” is a website not connected with the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh.

 

[CDB1718]

Do you mean just a list of Greek Catholic and Oriental Catholic churches?

No, I mean an official text of the church that says, “Oriental Catholics are different people from Eastern Catholics and have their own traditions.” Or some variation of that.

 

[5Loaves]

There now exists a four (4) page “series” of basic subjects re: the Eastern Church, that we, and many Parishes use as hand-outs to visitors for this very reason.

Subjects include:
"What is an Eastern Church"
"What Eastern Christians Believe"
“The Divine Liturgy”
“Genealogy of Christian Churches/Nationalities/Liturgies” (chart of all various “Catholic Churches/In Union w/Rome”)

Each subject is just one page - both sides - and easy to read.
These were originally published by the Archeparchy in Pittsburgh.

Let me know via email if you’d like a copy - you can then copy as many as you need.

SLAVYTE YEHO!

Thank you for emailing these to me. Now I’ve seen them I think these two, and others, are available here in a very slightly different form.

 

[Peter_J]

No, I mean an official text of the church that says, “Oriental Catholics are different people from Eastern Catholics and have their own traditions.” Or some variation of that.

Well, yes and no. When I say “Oriental Catholic Churches” I mean these eight:

Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Maronite Church
Syriac Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Armenian Catholic Church
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

(Note that none of the 14 Greek Catholic Churches are included in that list.)

However, that’s an unofficial use of “Oriental Catholic Churches”. Some people say that only 6 (or only 5) of those 8 should be called “Oriental Catholic Churches”, namely the ones that have counterparts among the Oriental Orthodox Churches. On the other hand, some official Vatican documents use “Oriental Catholic Churches” inclusively – inclusive of even the 14 Greek Catholic Churches.

Now, as for “Oriental Catholics are different people from Eastern Catholics” … well, if you define “Eastern Catholics” to mean just the Greek Catholics, then the statement is true by definition (unless you also use “Oriental Catholics” in the most inclusive sense .)

 

[J.J]

5loaves -
Those “these two, and others” – versions of “What is The Eastern Catholic Church” you show are somewhat different than those we use and that I sent you, as theirs you quote are “Melkite” Eastern Catholic (Those Eastern Catholics in Syria & Egypt) vs. our “Ruthenian Catholic Church” which tend to be Slavic/Eastern European Catholics.
While the Divine Liturgy remains the same, as we share the same Divine Liturgy w/Orthodox, there are obviously cultural differences such as language, historical, regional experiences, etc. The Melkites are of Antiochean tradition, but now follow the Byzantine Ritual.
Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics trace our origin to Prince Vladimir of Kiev who, in a pagan Kingdom at the time, sent emissaries out to evaluate and return w/a report on the three major religions of the world - Judaism, Islam, Christianity. When the emissaries visited St. Sophia in Constantinople, they said that “truly, this is where God is —”
Upon reporting this to Prince Vladimir he proclaimed that henceforth all Slavic people would be Orthodox Christians. The year = 988A.D.
The Byzantine Catholic Church has generally been “in union” w/Rome - except for the approx. 500yrs. when we excommunicated each other. However, we have “made-up” - with the provision we could keep our traditions, Liturgy, language, customs. We continue to keep a close eye on them.

But, I begin to ramble —

P. S. The term “Roman Catholic” is used generally in N. America; in the “rest of the world” they are known as “Latin Catholics”.

 

[CDB1718]

Well, yes and no. When I say “Oriental Catholic Churches” I mean these eight:

(Note that none of the 14 Greek Catholic Churches are included in that list.)

However, that’s an unofficial use of “Oriental Catholic Churches”. Some people say that only 6 (or only 5) of those 8 should be called “Oriental Catholic Churches”, namely the ones that have counterparts among the Oriental Orthodox Churches. On the other hand, some official Vatican documents use “Oriental Catholic Churches” inclusively – inclusive of even the 14 Greek Catholic Churches.

Now, as for “Oriental Catholics are different people from Eastern Catholics” … well, if you define “Eastern Catholics” to mean just the Greek Catholics, then the statement is true by definition (unless you also use “Oriental Catholics” in the most inclusive sense .)

I know the distinction intended. I am asking for a document I can quote that extols the Oriental tradition

 

[Aramis]

The 14 flavors of Byzantine Churches Sui Iuris have different abbreviations of the liturgy, as well. They all start from the same text - St. John’s promulgated text - but (1) add different rubrics (as St john included VERY few, and only for the clergy), (2) truncate various ektenie (litanies) differently, (3) omit certain options, (4) use their own language*, (5) have added things to the calendar, (6) have different traditions for colors besides “Light” and “Dark”.

*The Slavic Byzantines - Ukrainian, Russian, Ruthenian, Slovakian - have one liturgical language, Church Slavonic. And it’s kept the local languages mutually intelligible (at least if you ignore the verb endings and know the Ukrainian/Russian pronunciation shifts). Most of them now use the local language.

 

[CDB1718]

In one short pamphlet, I’m introducing the idea of Eastern Catholicism to Roman Catholics who have not heard of it before. I am asking questions then the answers are texts from official documents.

The question has to be essential and has to have an answer available from a quotable text that demands respect.

Who are they?
Are they really Catholic?
How can they have their own theology?
How can they have their own rules and laws?
Can I receive the sacraments there?

Those are the kinds of questions I expect to answer. The quotes used are guiding the formation of the pamphlet based on how much room they take up and how much information they provide and explain. The better the quote, the more likely it is to be included and to bump a less ideal quote out of the runnings. What I really need help with is identifying great quotes.

Why should I learn about Eastern Catholics?
Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each. Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. –Orientale Lumen

Means should be taken therefore in every part of the world for the protection and advancement of all the individual Churches and, to this end, there should be established parishes and a special hierarchy where the spiritual good of the faithful demands it. The hierarchs of the different individual Churches with jurisdiction in one and the same territory should, by taking common counsel in regular meetings, strive to promote unity of action and with common endeavor to sustain common tasks, so as better to further the good of religion and to safeguard more effectively the ordered way of life of the clergy.

All clerics and those aspiring to sacred Orders should be instructed in the rites and especially in the practical norms that must be applied in interritual questions. The laity, too, should be taught as part of its catechetical education about rites and their rules. –Orientalium Ecclesiarium

 

[Vico]

Do you have any references for this point? I want to quote an official text.

Canon Law (CCEO):TITLE 2 Churches Sui Iuris and Rites

Canon 27
A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.

Canon 28

1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.

Statistics from the Annuario Pontifico showing sui iuris Catholic churches:
cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=125&pagetypeID=1&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1

 

[bobcrawford]

I think all that Latins need to know is that there are the Eastern Churches (i.e. Greek) and then the Oriental Churches (Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, Armenian, etc.), and that the Eastern and Oriental Churches are distinct and unique from each other. I think if people understood that, there would be more ecumenical discussion with the Syriac Orthodox and Armenians, because I’m quite of the opinion that if Rome promised not to infringe on their authorities through illicit interventions (i.e. like ripping out general absolutions from their liturgies from the Armenians, or forcing Syriacs to wear Latin vestments until the 20th century) we’d have communion with the Oriental Orthodox in the next century.

I bring this up because I cannot recount how many times the same people will ask me about Byzantine things that they will knowingly call Greek except I should know because “we’re all the same.”

General absolution would be a great thing instead of these individual and humiliating personal confessions. Especially in today’s world when a confessional can be easily bugged with miniature electronic devices. Not to mention it is hard to trust anyone anymore with such personal information. General absolution for the congregation each week at mass would be a wonderful thing. Did not know that some Eastern Churches did this. Good for them.

 

[MorEphrem]

General absolution would be a great thing instead of these individual and humiliating personal confessions. Especially in today’s world when a confessional can be easily bugged with miniature electronic devices. Not to mention it is hard to trust anyone anymore with such personal information. General absolution for the congregation each week at mass would be a wonderful thing. Did not know that some Eastern Churches did this. Good for them.

One of the most powerful liturgical experiences I had was a general absolution before the Eucharist at an Armenian soorp badarak. I dare say I was close to a mystical experience.

 

[Peter_J]

Has anyone yet mentioned “The twin dangers of isolation and assimilation” (or words to that effect … I sometimes say “ghetto mentality” instead of “isolation”)?

 

[dzheremi]

I think if people understood that, there would be more ecumenical discussion with the Syriac Orthodox and Armenians, because I’m quite of the opinion that if Rome promised not to infringe on their authorities through illicit interventions (i.e. like ripping out general absolutions from their liturgies from the Armenians, or forcing Syriacs to wear Latin vestments until the 20th century) we’d have communion with the Oriental Orthodox in the next century.

When you write this, is it with only the Armenians and Syriacs in mind, or are you likewise including the Copts and Tewahedo?

 

[Peter_J]

When you write this, is it with only the Armenians and Syriacs in mind, or are you likewise including the Copts and Tewahedo?

Good question.

 

[MorEphrem]

When you write this, is it with only the Armenians and Syriacs in mind, or are you likewise including the Copts and Tewahedo?

I write it with only Armenians and Syriacs in mind, primarily because I have many Armenian and Syriac friends and family members, as well as know clergy (particularly of the later) and so I am pretty familiar with their ways and opinions. I don’t speak regarding Copts because I don’t feel like I’m properly informed enough to do so, and I think I’ve met maybe one Ethiopian Orthodox in my entire life, let alone know anything.