What do think of the previos Pope's beatification?

[JSSebastianoP]

I like the balanced tone of this post, acknowledging the faults but the holiness of the Pope as well. Saints were not perfect people, but people who attained holiness. That JPII loved God and led many into the Church I firmly believe. That he made errors in judgement I strongly suspect,.No one not even Popes are perfect. But God has made the judgement, in His eyes a saint , then in our eyes should he also be one too. I for one am happy God has shown us another glorious example of holiness in our own time.

I agree. Whaterver uneasiness I or others feel can be debated ad nauseum but we should all trust in the Faith that she will not err. This may sound naive, but if the Church says so, then case closed.

Pax,

Sebastiano

 

[JHow]

To the OP, I think it’s a good thing. I am surprised at some of the comments here. Long, long before I became catholic I recognized that John Paul II was a fearless defender of truth - a rare thing. That catholicism had such a leader forced me to admit that it could not be all bad. I think John Paul II knew how to make friends (the right kind) and in which direction the real enemy lies.

 

[maurin]

Isn’t there are strong danger of religious relativism here? There are many good people who have been led astray by moral relativism. It is always important to remember that Biblical Truth is capitalized for a reason - and it is unchanging.

Take St. Thomas More for example. While lots of people thought he should just take the King’s oath and consider it meaningless in his own heart, he knew it was not meaningless to God.

I agree with you. It is almost as if the the baby-zthe Truth-- is being thrown out with the bath water.

 

[tabbey48]

John Paul II’s cause arrived in the current’s Pope’s hands for approval after doctors studied the miraculous healing of Sister Marie Simon Pierre Normand and concluded it was “scientifically unexplainable.” Following approval from theologians and Church officials, Pope Benedict promulgated the decree with his signature.

CNA/EWTN News

It sounds to me like a lot of people that we Catholics ought to respect believe that John Paul II should be beatified.

I remember the people from many faith traditions who mourned his passing. And I remember the great crowds of Roman Catholics who cried out for him to be declared a saint at once. I believe we will have even more respect for John Paul II as we learn more about him through the years. He was one of the GREATS of history in my opinion. I respect those who still have questions. But I am happy that he will be beatified on May 1.

 

[laszlo]

The Magisterium and only the Magisterium is qualified who can be / should be beatified/canonized and who should not.

This power is based on the words of our Lord:

Matt 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Catholics accept this power.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Isn’t there are strong danger of religious relativism here? There are many good people who have been led astray by moral relativism. It is always important to remember that Biblical Truth is capitalized for a reason - and it is unchanging.

Again I return to my original question about the Apostles and First Century Christians telling the Greek pagans that the unnamed and unknown supreme god they worship is Jesus. Did that result to relativism or conversion?

Take St. Thomas More for example. While lots of people thought he should just take the King’s oath and consider it meaningless in his own heart, he knew it was not meaningless to God.

I think we’re going overboard here. The Pope didn’t become Muslim, and didn’t say we all should be Muslims. Unity is achieved by finding a common ground. We all see Abraham as our patriarch, spiritual or otherwise. The God of Abraham is our God and the Muslims say that Allah is the God of Abraham. By agreeing on this common ground, the Muslims then will be less hostile to Christianity and perhaps willing to learn more about the life of Christ as taught by Christians. Through that they may be converted. But if we deny them this, we tell them Allah is not a true god and they are a fake religion, then they will respond with violence and agression and we will be where we are for the past centuries, at war and at odds at each other. Pope John Paul II and the Church desires unity and peace.

 

[baylee]

Isn’t there are strong danger of religious relativism here? There are many good people who have been led astray by moral relativism. It is always important to remember that Biblical Truth is capitalized for a reason - and it is unchanging.

Take St. Thomas More for example. While lots of people thought he should just take the King’s oath and consider it meaningless in his own heart, he knew it was not meaningless to God.

Thank you for bringing up St Thomas More. I can’t imagine St Thomas More kissing the Koran. I suspect he’d much rather have his head cut off.

 

[momor]

Again I return to my original question about the Apostles and First Century Christians telling the Greek pagans that the unnamed and unknown supreme god they worship is Jesus. Did that result to relativism or conversion?

I think we’re going overboard here. The Pope didn’t become Muslim, and didn’t say we all should be Muslims. Unity is achieved by finding a common ground. We all see Abraham as our patriarch, spiritual or otherwise. The God of Abraham is our God and the Muslims say that Allah is the God of Abraham. By agreeing on this common ground, the Muslims then will be less hostile to Christianity and perhaps willing to learn more about the life of Christ as taught by Christians. Through that they may be converted. But if we deny them this, we tell them Allah is not a true god and they are a fake religion, then they will respond with violence and agression and we will be where we are for the past centuries, at war and at odds at each other. Pope John Paul II and the Church desires unity and peace.

I think I understand what you are saying but I’m afraid I can’t follow your logic on this. Allah cannot be God because God would not have sent Mohammed. We can hopefully find another path to peace that does not require we ignore Truth.

 

[m134e5]

I am very excited that John Paul II will be beatified. Though he wasn’t perfect, from what I have studied and observed, he seems to have been a very holy man- and I know of many very holy Catholics he inspired as well.

 

[tabbey48]

The Magisterium and only the Magisterium is qualified who can be / should be beatified/canonized and who should not.

This power is based on the words of our Lord:

Matt 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Catholics accept this power.

I agree with you. It is pride that causes us to second-guess the Magisterium.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think I understand what you are saying but I’m afraid I can’t follow your logic on this. Allah cannot be God because God would not have sent Mohammed. We can hopefully find another path to peace that does not require we ignore Truth.

No, I am not saying we’re justifying that Mohammed is a true prophet that God has sent. But our common ground is our God is the true God, the God of Abraham. Our objective is for them to open up to our faith and beliefs, to be inquisitive.

The same with the Greek pagans. Their unnamed supreme god is just one of many gods they have. But it just created a common ground for them to open up to our faith. Their supreme god had many lesser gods, Jesus did not create lesser gods. The thing that we Catholics acknowledge is that without divine revelation, other people may still get to know God but in a very limited way. Oftentimes this results in a skewed view of God. By acknowledging that they have a limited view of God and be open to it, we can then introduce to them what we received from divine revelation. The common ground with the 1st century pagans is they believe in one supreme god. The common ground with Muslims is we believe in the God of Abraham.

 

[Monica4316]

I was disappointed. I really believed Pope Benedict was taking the Church in a Traditional direction, but with the new Assisi and now the beatification, it is obvious that the status quo will be maintained.

That’s my unqualified opinion. Yours?

Pope John Paul II was not “liberal”… he brought back the Rosary, True Devotion to Mary, and many other good things… he upheld the Church’s moral teachings…

I’m glad that he’s being beatified if a miracle happened, that means that he is indeed meant to be a saint

 

[archangel04]

Kissing the Koran is more (to most people I talk to) than simple respect for someone else’s beliefs. I still cannot adequate defend the action to non-Catholics and others who took offense.

I have to respectfully disagree with you. It is one thing to shake someone’s hands and listen to their beliefs with an open mind, as my mother always said you can always learn something new even simple things from everyone. But to kiss the Koran was/is seen as something more by those non-Catholic and her enemies. As I am sure most good Catholics know that JP 2 did this with a good heart to show respect to the Muslim faith, but a picture is worth a 1,000 words . Out of context this image shows either “surrender” or making our Church equal to the Muslim, as a photographer myself I can tell you that many pictures have different meanings, this one image is not exempt from that saying.
I feel JP 2 did many great things and I see no problem with him becoming a saint. But in defense to those who disagree with him being proclaimed a saint, the scandals that occurred with the child abuses under his pontificate this is where we hear that saying that “he fell asleep at the wheel”. The Assisi gatherings(which perhaps are taken out of context), the unorthodox Bishops he appointed, the many abuses that occurred in many masses and there are more. There is a danger to believe that this man, who no doubt loved God, was perfect and could not commit any mistakes. He was a great man no doubt, but he had his faults just like many saints and popes before him.

 

[archangel04]

I think I understand what you are saying but I’m afraid I can’t follow your logic on this. Allah cannot be God because God would not have sent Mohammed. We can hopefully find another path to peace that does not require we ignore Truth.

I have to agree with you on this one as well. Allah is not the same God as ours. I remember watching a segment with Dr. Scott Hann who also said the same thing that Allah is not the same as the one true God.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I have read a lot of things at CAF and especially in this sub-forum that have made me very sad. I think this thread takes the cake, though.

It is the Holy Spirit is at work here. What I believe or think or feel really does not matter in this situation. The fact that so many people, in a Traditional Catholic forum, are actually saying that the beatification of JPII is not a good thing, quite honestly, astounds me!

 

[archangel04]

I have read a lot of things at CAF and especially in this sub-forum that have made me very sad. I think this thread takes the cake, though.

It is the Holy Spirit is at work here. What I believe or think or feel really does not matter in this situation. The fact that so many people, in a Traditional Catholic forum, are actually saying that the beatification of JPII is not a good thing, quite honestly, astounds me!

Not everyone is saying it’s not a good thing. As Catholics we can disagree or have an opinion, but they do not matter nor do they hold any weight. You can only imagine how hard the job of the “devil’s advocate” must be! He has to bring out “damming” evidence against the beatification of a person. This again is another danger, that as a Catholic you can’t have an opinion on matters that are not even Dogma or morality. Even if our late Holy Father becomes saint no one is required to pray for an intervention by him.

 

[maurin]

I agree with you. It is pride that causes us to second-guess the Magisterium.

Is it pride or is it confusion? I’ve used the orwellian metaphor before (probably ad nauseam), but for some of us it sincerely seems that way. That’s what takes the cake.

 

[pnewton]

I do not understand the objection to someone’s beatification, much less the animosity and judgementalism. I guess the dead make easy targets for the arrows of agenda.

I would rejoice in any one’s beatification. Who am I to argue with God or sit on the sideline frumpy why the angels rejoice. I would say this same thing if it were John Paul II or Ab. Lefebvre?

 

[Timothysis]

I have to agree with you on this one as well. Allah is not the same God as ours. I remember watching a segment with Dr. Scott Hann who also said the same thing that Allah is not the same as the one true God.

“Allah,” is the arabic word for “God.” Muslims regard Him as the God of Abraham, just as Jews and Christians do. While their perception of God is imperfect, one can still say that their recognition of the one true God is valid. Hence, Allah is the monotheistic God of muslims who is the same for both Jews and Christians. To say that “*Allah is not the same as the one true God” * is contrary to what the Church teaches in the Catechism;

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[claude1]

What do I think?

On May 1st I will be one of those rejoicing.

One thing he wanted, by the way, is that the Church have a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit, a new Pentecost. Pray for this!