What do think of the previos Pope's beatification?

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Apparently that’s what it’s turned out to be. Why should the process of his canonization take place before canonizing Pope Pius XII, for example?
You have a valid point and may well be right. I have little doubt that post-war politics have played a role in delaying an honest examination of Pope Pius XII. I do not think though that one canonization has anything to do with another.
 
JR,

Although virtuous–I do not doubt his personal virtue, sincerity, etc.–and as an adult survivor of sexual abuse myself, I believe a case can be made against anyone, no matter how innocently they acted themselves, who was the head of any organization during a time of a proliferation of allegations of abuse, where it was proven that offenders were not removed, but shuffled around. I’m not sure ‘heroic’ would be the adjective that those in my position would care to use. Maybe only another victim can understand that point of view.

Sincerely, maurin
While I sincerely believe that the pain and suffering of those who are victims of sexual abuse is both real and a crime that cries to God for justice, I also believe that John Paul’s sanctity is a separate issue. I will not go into your or anyone else’s personal pain with abuse, because it’s inappropriate for an internet forum.

However, I feel that I must explain what the Defender of the Faith looks at in these cases. He looks for material participation. If a person is not materially complicit in a sin, he is not culpable of that sin. There are two ways to be materially complicit. The obvious one is that you are the person who commits the sin. The second is that you endorse it in some way or another.

Any action that a person may have taken that proved ineffective or any information that the person did not have available at the time cannot be used against him. That would be contrary to moral law. Therefore, the person is not morally culpable. I am sure that this question was raised by the Defender of the Faith. It is his job to do so.

I have read, from Pope Benedict himself, that there were many things that Pope John Paul did not know until the year 2000. According to Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul took what he considered to be the best course of action at the time. That’s all that is required for moral innocence. Pope Benedict speaks about this in the book Light of the World when asked what they knew and what they did. One of his more interesting remarks is that he was in shock and incredulous. He could not believe that this could be possible. He’s speaking about himself. It was his job to take it to the Holy Fathere. When it finally became obvious that it was real, the Holy Father did give orders to Cardinal Ratzinger to do whatever was necessary to deal fix the problem, as well as to the bishops involved.

Along with the fact that Pope Benedict himself has defended the moral innocense of Pope John Paul, which would make him the most credible witness in this process, there is a miracle that won’t go away. Miracles can only be performed through the intercession of saints. Saints are people who lived lives of extraordinary and heroic virtue.

While we may say that Pope John Paul’s intervention was ineffectie or insufficient or even defective, we have to accept that there are credible witnesses who testify, under penalty of excommunication, including the pope, that he was innocent. We also have to accept that we have the testimony of the current pope that John Paul was a holy man. Finally, we have the testimony of scientific and theological experts who swear that there is a miracle that can be traced to John Paul’s intercession.

There have been many cases where saints have been remotely connected or even directly connected to great human suffering, but were not morally culpable. Had Pope John Paul known what else to do abou the abuses, he would have done it. That’s the point that the promoter of the cause had to prove to the Defender of the Faith until the Defender of the Faith could pose no more arguments. Obviously, he succeeded. Until the Defender of the Faith concedes, the cause does not go forward to the cardinals at the next level. They too have to be convinced, before it goes to the pope. The pope has to be convinced before it goes to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of Saints. That’s when the decree of Venerable is issued. Then you have to proceed to prove the alleged miracle.

What we have here is layers of experts who are sincerely convinced that John Paul did not sin in this regard and that whatever he did, was the best that he could do; and if there was anything that he failed to do and he became aware of it, he did extraordinary penance for it. We do not know what John Paul may have done wrong with full knowledge and consent. That will never be revealed. That’s part of the internal forum. But we do have the word of men who are noted for their expertise in Christian Spirituality that John Paul did extraordinary penance for his sins. It is said that his acts of penance themselves were heroic, including flagelation of the body. I wouldn’t know, I did not see it. I’ll have to take the word of those who say they know it.

The conclusion is that while there was suffering during his reign as pope, this did not begin under his reign. It went back prior to the Middle Ages. He did not endorse it. He did not participate in it. He acted in good faith with the information that he had at his disposal and used the resources at his disposal.

Finally, we have a miracle that we cannot ask God to take back. We have to acknowledge the Glory of God. It becomes very important in tough times such as this to remember that God can show his glory and his mercy through very fallible people. It is a statement of great faith to say that someone may have been part of my suffering and yet, God’s grace never left that person.

Our veneration of Blesseds and Saints is ultimately an act of worship of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You have a valid point and may well be right. I have little doubt that post-war politics have played a role in delaying an honest examination of Pope Pius XII. I do not think though that one canonization has anything to do with another.
Pope Pius XII’s process has not advanced as quickly because there is no proof positive of an alleged miracle. He has certainly been cleared as having lived a life of heroic Christian virtue. That’s a closed case. The next thing is for God to grant a miracle or for the pope to wave the requirement.

All of the polical arguments were heard during the postulation of the cause and all were resolved to the satisfaction of the Defender of the Faith, whose job it is to inquire and question every detail presented. The postulator gathers the material and makes the case. The Defender of the Faith examines the material looking for anything that is contrary to the faith. There was nothing found in Pope Pius XII’s life that was contrary to the faith. The next step was to look for signs of extraordinary and heroic faith and charity. Those were provided. When all was said and done, all three levels of inquiry were satisfied and thus he was declared Venerable. Now, we need a miracle.

Political arguments no longer play a role, because his life is no longer in question. That book is closed, unless the Holy Father chooses to open it again.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
What about the other Popes in the 20th century before Vatican II? Why the beatification of Vatican II and after Popes?
 
What about the other Popes in the 20th century before Vatican II? Why the beatification of Vatican II and after Popes?
I don’t get your question. Pius XII lived and died before Vatican II. There have only been two post Vatican II popes postulated for canonization, Bl. John XXIII and now Ven. John Paul II. All other popes who are either saints or blesseds are pre-Vatican II.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Pope Pius XII’s process has not advanced as quickly because there is no proof positive of an alleged miracle. He has certainly been cleared as having lived a life of heroic Christian virtue. That’s a closed case. The next thing is for God to grant a miracle or for the pope to wave the requirement.
Pius XII was only an example. I could have used Blessed Pope John XXIII, whom I’m sure would have been much less objected to. Pius XII has been frequently mentioned as “not doing enough” in the Second World War so any miracle would perhaps be a moot point as far as he’s concerned. But that’s only my opinion.
 
While I sincerely believe that the pain and suffering of those who are victims of sexual abuse is both real and a crime that cries to God for justice, I also believe that John Paul’s sanctity is a separate issue. I will not go into your or anyone else’s personal pain with abuse, because it’s inappropriate for an internet forum.

However, I feel that I must explain what the Defender of the Faith looks at in these cases. He looks for material participation. If a person is not materially complicit in a sin, he is not culpable of that sin. There are two ways to be materially complicit. The obvious one is that you are the person who commits the sin. The second is that you endorse it in some way or another.

Any action that a person may have taken that proved ineffective or any information that the person did not have available at the time cannot be used against him. That would be contrary to moral law. Therefore, the person is not morally culpable. I am sure that this question was raised by the Defender of the Faith. It is his job to do so.

I have read, from Pope Benedict himself, that there were many things that Pope John Paul did not know until the year 2000. According to Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul took what he considered to be the best course of action at the time. That’s all that is required for moral innocence. Pope Benedict speaks about this in the book Light of the World when asked what they knew and what they did. One of his more interesting remarks is that he was in shock and incredulous. He could not believe that this could be possible. He’s speaking about himself. It was his job to take it to the Holy Fathere. When it finally became obvious that it was real, the Holy Father did give orders to Cardinal Ratzinger to do whatever was necessary to deal fix the problem, as well as to the bishops involved.

Along with the fact that Pope Benedict himself has defended the moral innocense of Pope John Paul, which would make him the most credible witness in this process, there is a miracle that won’t go away. Miracles can only be performed through the intercession of saints. Saints are people who lived lives of extraordinary and heroic virtue.

While we may say that Pope John Paul’s intervention was ineffectie or insufficient or even defective, we have to accept that there are credible witnesses who testify, under penalty of excommunication, including the pope, that he was innocent. We also have to accept that we have the testimony of the current pope that John Paul was a holy man. Finally, we have the testimony of scientific and theological experts who swear that there is a miracle that can be traced to John Paul’s intercession.

There have been many cases where saints have been remotely connected or even directly connected to great human suffering, but were not morally culpable. Had Pope John Paul known what else to do abou the abuses, he would have done it. That’s the point that the promoter of the cause had to prove to the Defender of the Faith until the Defender of the Faith could pose no more arguments. Obviously, he succeeded. Until the Defender of the Faith concedes, the cause does not go forward to the cardinals at the next level. They too have to be convinced, before it goes to the pope. The pope has to be convinced before it goes to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of Saints. That’s when the decree of Venerable is issued. Then you have to proceed to prove the alleged miracle.

What we have here is layers of experts who are sincerely convinced that John Paul did not sin in this regard and that whatever he did, was the best that he could do; and if there was anything that he failed to do and he became aware of it, he did extraordinary penance for it. We do not know what John Paul may have done wrong with full knowledge and consent. That will never be revealed. That’s part of the internal forum. But we do have the word of men who are noted for their expertise in Christian Spirituality that John Paul did extraordinary penance for his sins. It is said that his acts of penance themselves were heroic, including flagelation of the body. I wouldn’t know, I did not see it. I’ll have to take the word of those who say they know it.

The conclusion is that while there was suffering during his reign as pope, this did not begin under his reign. It went back prior to the Middle Ages. He did not endorse it. He did not participate in it. He acted in good faith with the information that he had at his disposal and used the resources at his disposal.

Finally, we have a miracle that we cannot ask God to take back. We have to acknowledge the Glory of God. It becomes very important in tough times such as this to remember that God can show his glory and his mercy through very fallible people. It is a statement of great faith to say that someone may have been part of my suffering and yet, God’s grace never left that person.

Our veneration of Blesseds and Saints is ultimately an act of worship of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
what you have written sounds quite reasonable, and there is also, I concede, much Truth in what you have written. But facts do remain, and cannot be shuffled off to the side. My point was not that his personal virtue was not heroic. As some have pointed out on this thread, they are Catholic because of his example. I came back to the Church in part because of his influence. Doctrinal and Dogmatic issues aside, the figures for vocations, Mass attendance, etc. aside, the way these criminal issues were handled falls a bit short of heroic. From a victim’s point of view.
 
After his death I had a very powerful experience. My sister was killed a few months ago. I was numb. One day I looked at a picture of John Paul. I found myself saying, “John Paul, help me.” I heard an inner voice say, “Pray the Rosary”…

I started to pray three rosaries per day. We normally pray one as a community. On the 9th day I was at mass and I felt as if I had been suddenly released by something that was holding me. I felt a great sense of peace and joy. The numbness …The feeling of release from the numbness was the Blessed Mother’s intervention. But it was John Paul who encouraged me to go to her…

This is very important to me, because we have no mothers in my family. My sister was the last mother. She was killed in September 2010. I do believe that John Paul pointed me to our Blessed Mother when I said, “John Paul, please help me.” He knew that I had not only lost my sister, but I had lost all signs of motherhood in my life.

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
That is really beautiful…brought tears to my eyes. I am so sorry for your loss.
 
Believe it or not, the primary responsibility for abusive priests is the bishop over that priest! To hold that against the pope is to make the job of pope the most amazing micromanager in the history of the world. So, make sure your bishop responsible for that priest is never declared a saint.

What should Pius XII have done? He issued Mit Brennender Sorge and the Nazis started rounding up religious as retribution. That’s when St Edith Stein and her sister Rosa were executed. Pius XII sheltered Jews in Rome and paid ransom for their lives and saved hundreds of thousands of lives, for which he was honored by Yad Vashem. The chief rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism after the war and took the pope’s non-pope name as his confirmation name. These testimonies speak far more powerfully than a guilty German atheist’s defamatory play against him–a work of fiction! That’s where the defamation of Pius XII began.

I don’t think you can blame confusion and liturgy on JP2–that blame more properly belongs to John 23 & Paul 6. I don’t know if Paul 6 is saint-worthy but I think Humana Vitae was heroic and prophetic and I think the open rebellion made him suffer terribly and spiritually for a decade between the rebellion and his death. A tragic hero.

I say, let’s just go ahead and say SAINT John Paul 2 THE GREAT - 34TH DOCTOR of the Church!!! 😃

I’m throwing a party for beatification day!!!😃
 
Parkinson’s causes irreversible neurological damage, so yes, a healing miracle would be scientifically unexplainable. If you think it was faked, well, however they faked it, contact the Parkinsons Research Unit at the University of Kentucky because it’s a miracle cure!

When my dad was dx’ed with Parkinsons, it was shortly after JP2’s Parkinsons was made public. I teased Dad–a faithful Catholic–there you go, trying to be just like the pope! 😃
 
In the end it is God that does the beatification and canonization work, if we see it trough current requirement standard.

Pope Benedict could dispose the requirement to wait 5 years, but it is God who grant miracles through his saints. If God willing, he could provide us miracles trough John Paul II intercession, 50 years after his death.
If the Church is not listening and play deaf, he can bombard the Church with a series of miracles until she gave up and acknowledged God’s voice in this regard. Who knows?

But he grant us miracle NOW. Why? Why is God being imprudent? I don’t know. If he grant it now, then it must be because this is the right moment. God sings “I do it my way!”
Too bad I can’t sue God for offending me by revealing the miracle too soon 😃

If we have a lot of mess nowadays, and we think that Pope John Paul II did not do enough to clear them, this is the best moment to ask him to clear them up!
Now there is no bureaucracy which hinders us to complain straight to the person. And fortunately, he is now more able to do things compared to when he was still alive 👍
 
As one who has been at the receiving end of sin, I have found that the only way to attain inner peace is to get past the blame.

I was not born a religious. I was married. I had three wonderful children and great parents. In 1993 a driver, under the influence, drove my wife’s car off the road. My wife, one son and my father were killed. I was left a widower with two surviving children, a little girl who was 9 and a little boy who was 4. They are adults and doing quite well.

In 2001, my mother died of Parkinsons. In September 2010, my sister was euthanized by her husband. She was very ill, but not terminal. However, her husband and her doctor decided that she should be allowed to “die with dignity”. They took away her feeding tube, water, and all medications. She was kept sedated with morphine, which gradually kills you. She starved to death after three weeks. I could do nothing to stop them. The last conversation that I had wiht my sister was when she called me and asked me to help her. I remember clearly what she said, “Help me, please. I don’t want to die.” A week later, a coma was induced. I visited her in hospice. She awoke for a few moments and said my name and then went back to sleep.

My daughter flew in to visit her, a week before her death. She opened her eyes and said, “Oh my God, you’re here.!” She was very happy to see her favorite niece. Again, she drifted off, because of the medications.

On the morning that she died, she opened her eyes. An aunt was with her. Her husband had gone away for a few hours. She grasped my aunt’s hand and expired.

None of these people died according to God’s plan. It is not in God’s plan that people should be killed or that their death should be accelerated. Nonetheless, this is how they died. Can we blame? Sure we can. What would it achieve? Nothing.

Holiness is not achieved through blame, but through compassion. Suffering is often blessed with light, if we look for it. If we deny the value of suffering, then Christ’s passion and death are meaningless.

What I discovered, following John Paul’s inspiration to pray to the Blessed Mother was the greatness of silence. Mary could have blamed many people, beginning with the Apostles who abandoned her son. However, at the foot of the cross, Mary is silent. I found that the silence of Mary speaks loudly about forgiveness and mercy. I can choose to live my life with blame in my heart or I can choose to live my life as Mary lived it, silently accepting God’s plan for me, giving to God whatever he takes and willingly accepting whatever he gives.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I rejoice that the Ven. Pope John Paul II will be beatified and I hope I live to see him raised to the honors of the Altar. I’m having a dinner for friends and a decorated cake on May 1.
A terrific idea. I think I’ll do the same .

Thanks 🙂
 
Do you think St. Stephen would have objected to St. Paul becoming a saint?
That’s a point, Constantine. St. Paul did much to atone for the lives he took. He almost singlehandedly built the Churches of the Middle East. That, in my opinion, is heroic. And that is also this particular point. Heroic.
 
I have not read all the posts, but the ones I did read upset me by indicating that THEY were offended by some of the actions of JPII. The important thing is that GOD wasn’t offended, and He performed a Miracle through the intercession of this wonderful Pontiff, to let the world know that he is indeed a Saint in Heaven. 😃
 
That’s a point, Constantine. St. Paul did much to atone for the lives he took. He almost singlehandedly built the Churches of the Middle East. That, in my opinion, is heroic. And that is also this particular point. Heroic.
I find being uncompromising in the face of attacks on marriage, female “ordination”, fighting the culture of death, having a large role in the downfall of the Soviet Union, and forgiving the man who tried to kill you to be heroic. The man was resolute with his Pro Life stances, and he put his money where his mouth was on his death bed, didn’t he?
 
I find being uncompromising in the face of attacks on marriage, female “ordination”, fighting the culture of death, having a large role in the downfall of the Soviet Union, and forgiving the man who tried to kill you to be heroic. The man was resolute with his Pro Life stances, and he put his money where his mouth was on his death bed, didn’t he?
Like I said, Melchior, I have no doubts at all about his personal virtue, holiness and sincerity. And in the particular issues you cite, I agree. But to describe public virtue as heroic, does not the adjective itself mean to encompass all facets of responsibility, again, Doctrinal issues aside.
 
I find being uncompromising in the face of attacks on marriage, female “ordination”, fighting the culture of death, having a large role in the downfall of the Soviet Union, and forgiving the man who tried to kill you to be heroic. The man was resolute with his Pro Life stances, and he put his money where his mouth was on his death bed, didn’t he?
In these and in many other situations he showed extraordinary faith, charity and trust in God. There is no reason to believe that in the abuse cases he did less than he could.

We must always keep in mind that I can think, “You could have done this or that.” However, what I think that you could have done may not have crossed your mind or you may have considered it and judged it to be the wrong thing to do, because you had other information that I do not have. We cannot pass judgment on people’s choices based on what we think the person could have done. We have to accept what they did in good conscience and denounce what they did fully knowing the evil and with evil intent.

A perfect example is St. Maximilian Kolbe. His actions not only got him into trouble with the Nazis, but every friar in his house. These other friars are rarely mentioned, if at all. Some were killed and others tortured by the Nazis. What Maximilian did to get him into trouble, even though it also got his friars into trouble, he did in good conscience. One can say that as the Guardian of the friary, he should have acted more prudently. He was the superior of 200+ friars and responsible for their well-being. He also had an association of laymen who would be targeted. Was he morally culpable? No. He acted in good faith, trusting that God would show the way and that the Blessed Mother would protect them.

John Paul’s acceptance of suffering was his last heroic act of faith, which must be credited and which weighs very heavily on the disposition of his soul at the time of his death.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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