What do Traditional Catholics think of religious freedom?

[Lief_Erikson]

I am well aware that the acceptance of religious freedom only became the position of the Catholic Church at Vatican II. Before that, while it was accepted among some members of the Church, it was not accepted by the Church hierarchy. I also know that Traditionalist Catholics tend to oppose the changes of Vatican II. Do Traditionalist Catholics oppose religious freedom as well? Seeing as it was one of the Vatican II changes.

 

[Dauphin]

Very few traditional Catholics actually believe that people should be coerced by the state into joining the Catholic faith. Entering the Church has to be a free choice.

However, since God’s dominion extends to absolutely every area of life, including public life, most traditionalists favour some sort of official recognition or even promotion of the Catholic Church by the state, which would be in the objective interest of souls. Some traditionalists would oppose allowing public displays of other faiths, keeping heresy as suppressed as possible without resorting to coercion or violence to eliminate it. Again, this is so that heretical faiths do not spread and seriously threaten the salvation of the population.

 

[holdencaulfield]

One must be Catholic out of their own will. Otherwise it is useless.

 

[HashemEchad]

One must be Catholic out of their own will. Otherwise it is useless.

I wish Ferdinand and Isabella had felt that way!

 

[holdencaulfield]

I wish Ferdinand and Isabella had felt that way!

Yes, it is a good point, however you have to put things into perspective. Religious freedom was not very typical until the mid 19th century. Regardless of where you lived, if you did not abide by the state religion you were usually discriminated against. We are so lucky to live in a time, when we are free to make the choices.

 

[skatepixie]

I wish Ferdinand and Isabella had felt that way!

So do I!

I bet that shocked you…but it’s true. For several reasons:

1. Just saying you believe to avoid being killed or whatever isn’t any good.
2. It just breeds discontent and fake conversions, which damages the Church.
3. It’s wrong.

I’m not sure what role religion should play in state life. It seems that this is something America in general is struggling with…are the 10 commandments okay? Is public prayer okay? Etc. I think the current trend is to take separation of church and state too far. However, I also know that if it went the other direction, it would be the protestant faith that would be pushed at us…something I’m not comfortable with having just spend 2 years at lutheran college.

 

[Genesis315]

The problem with the dissident traditionalists’ reading of the the Second Vatican Council’s decree on Religious Freedom is that they read parts that are meant to be treated as practical, historical (time-specific) necessities as metaphysical truths: contrary to to the official relatio’s instruction and contrary to the current Holy Father’s interpretation.

I wrote something on this issue for another forum, which I think is helpful. See posts 10 and 11 from this thread. Sorry it’s long!

christianforums.com/t6374309

 

[Genesis315]

Very few traditional Catholics actually believe that people should be coerced by the state into joining the Catholic faith. Entering the Church has to be a free choice.

However, since God’s dominion extends to absolutely every area of life, including public life, most traditionalists favour some sort of official recognition or even promotion of the Catholic Church by the state, which would be in the objective interest of souls. Some traditionalists would oppose allowing public displays of other faiths, keeping heresy as suppressed as possible without resorting to coercion or violence to eliminate it. Again, this is so that heretical faiths do not spread and seriously threaten the salvation of the population.

And this is not contrary to the doctrine expressed by the Council. If we look at the concordat signed by Pope Paul VI and Columbia in the '70s we, the state expressly states that Catholicism is necessary for the common good and the nation also had laws prohibiting the netrance of foreign missionaries.

Likewise, when religious activity harms the common good it is rightfully shut down–for example, I haven’t seen any Catholic clerics speak out against the suppression of the sect in Waco in the 90s or the recent suppression of FLDS activity.

Again, I think the link I gave above traces Church teaching and policy on this issue well.

 

[grandfather]

I am well aware that the acceptance of religious freedom only became the position of the Catholic Church at Vatican II. Before that, while it was accepted among some members of the Church, it was not accepted by the Church hierarchy. I also know that Traditionalist Catholics tend to oppose the changes of Vatican II. Do Traditionalist Catholics oppose religious freedom as well? Seeing as it was one of the Vatican II changes.

There are two ways to look at religious freedom. One is a personal freedom of conscience. Faith can not be imposed on anyone. God does not force His love or mercy on anyone. We have a choice to believe and receive. We can remain in our sins or receive forgiveness.

Let’s say I want to start a new religion. Assume we live in the present day in a place where the civil government “guarantees” religious “freedom”. In my new religion I insist that human sacrifice is necessary to appease angry spirits. Every woman in this religion must offer one of her children at the age of ten to be sacrificed. Ot suppose in my religion we insist that when a girl reaches puberty she has to be initiated into sexual activity by ten adult males who live across town. You believe in religious freedom don’t you? If you do you agree I have the right to start this religion. I think most people would say, not in my neighborhood please. Somewhere there have to be limits on this “freedom”.

Now suppose that there was a certain region the vast majority of people belonged to one religion. This particular religion sought converts, but also believed that conversion had to be sincere. They welcomed new members, but only if they are sincere. Please do not join our religion unless you really want to and believe what we believe. The adherents of this religion believed conversion had to be an act of free will and could not be forced or coerced.

There would be many advantages to a person who belonged to the religion of the great majority. It is kind of like joining the country club or Rotary and getting to meet people, make connections who can help you further your ambitions in business or politics, say. There would be a temptation to gain these social, economic and political advantages by making an insincere conversion, being a false convert.

It is difficult for us to think this way, because we do not live in such a place.

If it came to the attention of the people who belonged to the majority religion that there were many false converts who had joined them and were insincere what sould they do? Would it be a mistake to have an investigation to try to find out who these folks are and expose them?

Israel is a country where the majority are Jews for example. If I lived there and am Muslim it is difficult. I get searched wherever I go, suspected of being a suicide bomber. My farm is going to be tuened into a settlement. It is much more difficult to get a good job, or open a restaurant when Jews like to go to restaurants that are not run by Muslims. I am not that religious a Muslim. In fact I don’t care about religion at all, but my family is Muslim. I certainly do not beleive the Jewish religion and in fact hate it. But if I say I am Jewish all of my social, economic, political problems go away. In my city there are thousands of people like me, in this imaginary construct. We also have relatives who are Muslim and we sympathize with their plight even though we don’t understand why they insist on being so religious. We tell them all they have to do is make believe they are Jewish. They hate the Jewish state and we don’t like it either. There is no loyalty or love for this government. If it were destroyed we would all be happier, but at least as false converts we have social advantages and do not suffer deprivation. The Jews do not know we hate them, because they think we are Jewish. We do help our downtrodden relatives when we can. We are sort of operating in stealth in fact.

If such a situation existed would it be wrong for the Jews to try to discover who was in their midst having converted to Judaism under false pretenses and might be trying to do them harm?

 

[HashemEchad]

Yes, it is a good point, however you have to put things into perspective. Religious freedom was not very typical until the mid 19th century. Regardless of where you lived, if you did not abide by the state religion you were usually discriminated against. We are so lucky to live in a time, when we are free to make the choices.

I agree with you totally.

One thing that continues to haunt me though…my late mother (who was raised Catholic and converted to Judaism in the 1940s), often warned me to be cautious in my dealings with Catholics (she said this to me after I got involved, years ago, in Jewish-Catholic ecumenical work).

She said that the Catholic church, when its NOT in power (as in America), will act like a harmless dove, but when she IS in power, she goes crazy (i.e., Middle Ages.)

I really don’t know if what she said is true or not; history does seem to bear it out, yet I really want to believe that modern Catholics are different, and do believe in freedom of religion, and that its not only the liberal Catholics who believe this.

Either way, I’m thankful I am an American because here, its a moot question!

 

[puzzleannie]

I am well aware that the acceptance of religious freedom only became the position of the Catholic Church at Vatican II. Before that, while it was accepted among some members of the Church, it was not accepted by the Church hierarchy. I also know that Traditionalist Catholics tend to oppose the changes of Vatican II. Do Traditionalist Catholics oppose religious freedom as well? Seeing as it was one of the Vatican II changes.

you have become aware of no such thing, because it is not a V2 idea, and your statement about preV2 church is also in error. general rules for apologetics discussions:
when you make an allegation, provide a source.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I wish Ferdinand and Isabella had felt that way!

Keep in mind that the Spanish just finished expelling (in 1492) the Moors who had invaded Spain (and France) in AD 711 from North Africa.

After fighting for more than 700 years, the Moors got sent back to North Africa (from whence the Moors commenced to raid Europe by sea … the Corsairs and all that … for the next 300+ years).

In addition to the fighting that went on, there was a lot of political turmoil. And religion and politics in those days was completely mixed. People who claimed to be hearing God speaking to them would lead political movements and create great unrest.

And just to make life more interesting, there was a war breaking out somewhere in the region, about once a MONTH! No joke.

Just look at how the kings of England had such different “nationalities”. My goodness. Even now … the “House of Windsor” used to be called the “House of Hanover” because the British Royal Family was (and still is) German! Except, of course, that Prince Philip is Greek. But enough of that.

If anyone wants to read some interesting stuff about that whole period, read up on St. John of the Cross. He got caught up in the aftermath of the war in Spain, the Inquisition, the politics between the Carmelites and the Discalced (barefoot) Carmelites, community prayer versus private prayer.

One day, by “chance”, I happened to stop by St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC when Cardinal O’Connor was saying daily Mass. It was the feast of St. Athanasius. Cardinal O’Connor said that if you think the Catholic Church is having problems today, just consider what St. Athanasius went through … he fought for 75 years the heresy that Jesus wasn’t divine.

Cardinal O’Connor said that by comparison, the problems of the Catholic Church today will be only a tiny bump in the whole history of the Church.

Read more here:

amazon.com/Fire-Within-Teresa-Gospel-Prayer/dp/0898702631

and here:

icspublications.org/bookstore/cross/b_cross01.html

 

[grandfather]

I agree with you totally.

One thing that continues to haunt me though…my late mother (who was raised Catholic and converted to Judaism in the 1940s), often warned me to be cautious in my dealings with Catholics (she said this to me after I got involved, years ago, in Jewish-Catholic ecumenical work).

She said that the Catholic church, when its NOT in power (as in America), will act like a harmless dove, but when she IS in power, she goes crazy (i.e., Middle Ages.)

I really don’t know if what she said is true or not; history does seem to bear it out, yet I really want to believe that modern Catholics are different, and do believe in freedom of religion, and that its not only the liberal Catholics who believe this.

Either way, I’m thankful I am an American because here, its a moot question!

What happened to Jews when an atheist ideology siezed control on the European continent? What did the leading Jews of the time who survived, Golda Meir, Albert Einstein and others say about Catholics and their Church after the shoah? The head rabbi in Rome and his entire family converted to Catholicism, AFTER the war.

History has a strange way of being colored. It depends on who has the crayons. That includes the history of the Middle Ages.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I agree with you totally.

One thing that continues to haunt me though…my late mother (who was raised Catholic and converted to Judaism in the 1940s), often warned me to be cautious in my dealings with Catholics (she said this to me after I got involved, years ago, in Jewish-Catholic ecumenical work).

She said that the Catholic church, when its NOT in power (as in America), will act like a harmless dove, but when she IS in power, she goes crazy (i.e., Middle Ages.)

I really don’t know if what she said is true or not; history does seem to bear it out, yet I really want to believe that modern Catholics are different, and do believe in freedom of religion, and that its not only the liberal Catholics who believe this.

Either way, I’m thankful I am an American because here, its a moot question!

However I hope you know that many of the Popes who displayed sinful behavior were not behaving themselves and were sinful people. Even Dante thought that many Popes were in Hell. Popes are fallible people. Sometimes people forget this.

 

[HashemEchad]

What happened to Jews when an atheist ideology siezed control on the European continent? What did the leading Jews of the time who survived, Golda Meir, Albert Einstein and others say about Catholics and their Church after the shoah? The head rabbi in Rome and his entire family converted to Catholicism, AFTER the war.

History has a strange way of being colored. It depends on who has the crayons. That includes the history of the Middle Ages.

Rabbi Zoller (who changed his name to Zolli to sound Italian; he was Galician), has an interesting story. And its not one of sincere conversion to the Catholic faith.

If you’re ever interested, read the book, “The Chief Rabbi of Rome Becomes A Catholic” by Louis I Newman, Renascence Press, c 1945 It was written right after the event, and gives insight into Zoller’s status as a meshumad le’hakhis, or apostate for spite.

 

[grandfather]

Rabbi Zoller (who changed his name to Zolli to sound Italian; he was Galician), has an interesting story. And its not one of sincere conversion to the Catholic faith.

If you’re ever interested, read the book, “The Chief Rabbi of Rome Becomes A Catholic” by Louis I Newman, Renascence Press, c 1945 It was written right after the event, and gives insight into Zoller’s status as a meshumad le’hakhis, or apostate for spite.

I read the whole family converted.
Insincere conversions have caused problems.

 

[HashemEchad]

I read the whole family converted.
Insincere conversions have caused problems.

Insincere conversions have caused problems in both religions, we Jews have had our problems with those too!

In brief, the Zoller situation: Zoller was hired as chief rabbi of Rome originally. Then, during the Nazi roundup of the Italian Jews, he hid out in the Vatican while his own people and synagogue members were being rounded up and sent to the death camps. A rabbi, esp. a chief rabbi, is supposed to stay with his people, as a shepherd guards his sheep.

After the war, he had the nerve to approach the leaders of the Italian Jewish community who had survived the camps, asking for his old job back.

The Italian Jews, recalling how he acted in such a cowardly fashion, refused to hire him back.

Out of spite, he, his wife and his daughter all converted to Catholicism. They made sure to make a public spectacle of it too, because his aim was to “get back” at his people for not having him back. Its called in Judaism, being a “meshumad le’hakhis”, or an apostate for spite. Its the worst reason a Jew can apostasize.

BTW a reporter who interviewed his family after their conversion found that his daughter Miriam, knew very, very little about the Jewish religion and Jewish practices. He found this rather odd for someone who was a daughter of the chief rabbi. That should indicate just how devoted he was to Judaism, when his own daughter was so incredibly Jewishly ignorant.

People who were bad Jews often make bad members of other religions as well. I wouldn’t hold Zoller up as a shining example, because he was anything but.

 

[grandfather]

Insincere conversions have caused problems in both religions, we Jews have had our problems with those too!

In brief, the Zoller situation: Zoller was hired as chief rabbi of Rome originally.

History has a strange way of being colored depending on who has the crayons.

 

[grandfather]

History has a strange way of being colored depending on who has the crayons.

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/sswalllow_ezolli_sept05.asp

 

[Al_Masetti]

Read Pincus Lapide’s book, “Three Popes and the Jews”.

Also read “La Popessa”

I remember reading “La Popessa” some years ago.

It was in one sense an innocuous “silly” book (no attempt at being deep or political or even a theological work), but this memoir/biography/autobiography of Pope Pius XII’s housekeeper had some interesting anecdotes.

The “story” that I enjoyed the most dealt with the description of Jewish refugees who were smuggled into the Vatican City during WW2. Hitler was enraged that the Catholic Church was sheltering Jews in the Vatican. There were THOUSANDS of them.

The Pope had no money to feed them, so Cardinal Spellman of New York had a diplomatic passport and when he visited the Vatican, his suitcases were FILLED with cash which he had collected from wealthy people in New York City. Sister Pascalina used the money to buy food for the refugees.

Interestingly, the Germans were very officious and respected paper credentials… so the Vatican employed a forger to create phoney documents for each of the Jewish refugees identifying them as Italian Catholics. The Germans respected the documents and the Jewish refugees were taken by Vatican railways to the Mediterranean Sea and put aboard ships and taken to a safe haven.

Even more interesting, is that there is NO official RECORD of where the Jewish refugees ultimately ended up. The Med and the Atlantic were filled with Nazi submarines. North Africa was in Nazi hands. Israel was off limits; the Brits and the Arabs were actively hostile. South America was too far away… so where did all those many thousands of refugees end up??? My betting is that they ended up in Spain, protected by Franco.

Maybe someday soon the destination will be declassified.

Oh, and the name of the forger … Angelo Roncalli…

You might know him better as Pope John XXIII.

“And now you know the rest of the story!”
amazon.com/Popessa-Controversial-Biography-Pascalina-Powerful/dp/0446512583/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209462775&sr=1-3

The book reviews by readers were fabulous. ABEbooks may have it cheaper than Amazon.

[Pincus Lapide, an Israeli historian, wrote a book, “Three Popes and the Jews” and he claimed that the Catholic Church was responsible for the rescue of 765,000 Jews during WW2… I’m doing this from memory… maybe someone could look it up for verification.]

abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sortby=2&sts=t&tn=Three+Popes+and+the+Jews&x=92&y=15*