What do traditional folks really think of BW's criticism of the SSPX?

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Just lately, Bishop Williamson is at greater pains than ever, to discredit the leadership of the SSPX, by pointing out what he perceives are subversive errors -and it is implied, still possibly exist.

He continues to maintain that they have deserted the true cause started by Archbishop Lefebvre:confused:

Lately he is combing through the Doctrinal Declaration that the SSPX sent to Rome in April of 2012, and digging up “errors” to prove his point.

This extract refers to one of the paragraphs he objects to - and, just wondering, but can anyone but a Pope (e.g.Council of Trent) hand out anathema’s?

***“Whoever wrote this paragraph, God knows. It may not have been the Superior General of the SSPX. But can anybody who studies it carefully deny that, as it stands, it is designed to lead minds from Catholic Truth into Conciliar error? It makes words dance like heretics make them dance, and heretics that make words dance make souls lose their faith and fall into Hell. Whoever was responsible for this seventh paragraph, let him be anathema!”***Bishop Williamson
 
Here is what I said on another forum but in tamer words: Bishop Williamson is a snake and leading people away from the faith. I am one of a handful of traditionalists who think the SSPX are in schism, which means Williamson himself is as far as I can tell pretty much not even Catholic (though, please God, there is still hope for him, and I do not make a judgement which is why I say “as far as I can tell” based on his repeated references to ‘new Rome’ etc).
He maintains that they have deserted the true cause started by Archbishop Lefebvre:confused:
He’s right - but in the opposite way. If you read the writings of the Archbishop in the seventies and early eighties he only ever wanted (a) the right to teach and ordain seminarians in the traditional manner/rite and (b) a way for these priests to serve the Church (whether incardinated into a diocese somehow, or into their society, just some way to make it happen). It’s a bit more complicated than that but those are the basics and he would easily have accepted that. But that’s exactly what the FSSP have right now. It’s exactly what Ecclesia Dei is for and what all the communities under the PCED actually have! So in my mind indeed the SSPX are not doing what the Archbishop wanted! They are moving further and further away from the Church as they build more seminaries, open more chapels, use sophisms to ‘convert’ people and talk badly about the Catholic faith. They have a lot of things right in their criticisms, but also many things wrong.

It’s clear that the Holy Ghost is not working in that society. It is true, that the consecrations were extraordinary measures. Who can deny it? They were extreme measures. And yet we expect some kind of extreme results to match these measures. But instead we do not have those results. Where are the miracles? Where are the thousands of saints pouring out from these independant chapels converting the world? Where are the signs and wonders? Nowhere. Instead we have a society where each province thinks differently with regards to their superiors wishes, each priest has a different theological opinion on certain things, bishops go rogue, priests leave their vocation (yes it happens in the SSPX) and the society crumbles all while focusing on their empty rhetoric and horrible abuse of the minds of their followers.

I am as traditional as they come, but I refuse absolutely to kiss the feet of the Society or to pretend that Archbishop Lefebvre did the right thing. What is traditional about consecrating without mandate? What is traditional about dying excommunicate? What is traditional about never ending ‘dialogues’ with the Holy See? Nothing, nothing, nothing! And now we have a rogue SSPX bishop and rogue SSPX Priests of the ‘strict observance’. And they’ll yet say that the SSPX is correct? Hah! Give me a break. Show me the miracles, show me the extraordinary signs from Heaven, show me the unbelievably zealous and holy saints, show me that they have unity within their own ranks and maybe then I will think again.

Just my two cents on Bishop Williamson and the SSPX in general.
 
Its simple…he is a “protester”…a “protestant”. Whether he or SSPX…in schism…they have at best “sipped the kool aide”…at worst…“drank the whole glass”. Does SSPX have substantive arguments?..are they genuinely following their conscience?..I believe that the answer to both questions… is yes…but their actions tell the rest of the story…

They believe that Jesus lied and that the Holy Spirit is asleep…and can’t be trusted to protect the Church and the Faithful from doctrinal and moral error…that only they can protect the Church by disobedience…schism.

The truth teller: how can one expect to draw himself close to Obedience Himself…a person…Our Lord Jesus Christ…“obedient even unto death, death on a cross” (Phil 2:8)…by being disobedient to his Word and his Vicar on Earth…the Supreme Pontiff.

I feel for SSPX’s concern and distress…me too in some unnerving ways…and how I wish that they were in full communion with the Pope and the Church…they could offer a great example and continuity of the organic dogmas and doctrines of the Church across the centuries…but disobedience to the Pope and the Magisterium…is not a Holy Spirit inspired response…IMHO.

Pax Christi
 
Just lately, Bishop Williamson is at greater pains than ever, to discredit the leadership of the SSPX, by pointing out what he perceives are subversive errors -and it is implied, still possibly exist.

He continues to maintain that they have deserted the true cause started by Archbishop Lefebvre:confused:

Lately he is combing through the Doctrinal Declaration that the SSPX sent to Rome in April of 2012, and digging up “errors” to prove his point.

This extract refers to one of the paragraphs he objects to - and, just wondering, but can anyone but a Pope (e.g.Council of Trent) hand out anathema’s?

***“Whoever wrote this paragraph, God knows. It may not have been the Superior General of the SSPX. But can anybody who studies it carefully deny that, as it stands, it is designed to lead minds from Catholic Truth into Conciliar error? It makes words dance like heretics make them dance, and heretics that make words dance make souls lose their faith and fall into Hell. Whoever was responsible for this seventh paragraph, let him be anathema!”***Bishop Williamson
Bishop Fellay is close to reconciling the SSPX with the Catholic Church, and apparently Bishop Williamson objects.
 
Here is what I said on another forum but in tamer words: Bishop Williamson is a snake and leading people away from the faith. I am one of a handful of traditionalists who think the SSPX are in schism, which means Williamson himself is as far as I can tell pretty much not even Catholic
so,did i miss something march 13,2013?:confused: 🤷
 
Negative and rude comments toward clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned
While true, that’s a bit of a non sequitur, don’t you think?
 
I wouldn’t think that a bishop has any authority to impose such major excommunication on anyone 🤷 Catholic Encyclopedia specifies that besides the penalties, the word “anathema” sometimes “signifies also to be overwhelmed with maledictions”, and perhaps this is what was meant (as uncharitable as that may sound to our ears :o).

Anyways, here’s the seventh paragraph:
Declaration III, 5 : “The statements of Vatican II and the post-conciliar Magisterium with regard to the relation between the Catholic Church and non-catholic confessions and to the social duty of religion and the right to religious liberty, (1) the formulation of which it is difficult to reconcile with previous doctrinal statements of the Magisterium, (2) must be understood in the light of Tradition complete and uninterrupted, (3) in a manner coherent with the truths previously taught by the Church’s Magisterium, (4) without accepting any interpretation of these statements which can lead to Catholic doctrine being laid out in opposition to, or breaking with, Tradition and that Magisterium.”
According to him, the first issue is that this is turning things a bit around: “it is not the statements of Vatican II that are problematic, but only their “formulation”.” He obviously seems to believe that the statements themselves are problematic. Is it reasonable to expect any reconciliation to take place, if our pretense is to call “problematic” the statements of an Ecumenical Council?

He further resents that “there is suggested no objective impossibility of reconciling Conciliar nonsense with Catholic sense, they are merely “difficult” to reconcile subjectively”. Again: can the common ground for dialogue be that one of the two sides has spoken nonsense? If a small community wants to reconcile with the large society it separated itself from, is it reasonable for it to expect the latter to agree to such premises?

He makes a clever inference on why the Declaration employs the terms “in the light of” and “in a manner coherent with” (I am not saying I agree with his inference): he says:
understanding the Vatican II novelties “in the light of” Tradition is to understand that they are wholly irreconcilable. Understanding them “in a manner coherent with” Tradition is to understand them as though they are reconcilable.
Whether or not this is a correct interpretation of the usage of those two expressions, it does make sense: if (the majority of) a certain group considers that “in the light of Tradition” A and B are irreconciliable, then the sole way to move towards reconciliation is to find a way to somewhat make A and B reconciliable 🤷

But probably what bothers the most is part (4)…as he writes, this sentence is rather clear: “any subjective understanding of the novelties that makes them clash with Tradition and the age-old Magisterium is absolutely to be rejected”. Thus, the very usage that he makes of the word “novelties” would probably be numbered amidst the unacceptable statements (which makes sense: I cannot believe at once that the Church does not contradict and contradicts itself…“no one can believe that the same thing can (at the same time) be and not be”…!).

If the Society and the Church were to agree on such a point, it would necessarily imply that those who belong to the Society would no longer be allowed to affirm that certain statements regarding the relation between the Church and non-catholic communities are in opposition or breaking with tradition. But he separated himself (or was separated) from SSPX and opposes “modern-day SSPX and its desire to obtain an agreement with Rome”, claiming that this is one of the principles of Archbishop Lefebvre (a questionable statement). Obviously such a statement is indeed unacceptable to him and one realizes why he would be so upset at whoever wrote it.

Where I disagree (in my ignorance) is in this statement: “the paragraph as a whole constitutes a most clever step-wise movement from a shadow of truth to the outright error of the “hermeneutic of continuity”, which is pure Alice in Wonderland”. As far as I know, the latter refers to a statement of Pope Benedict XVI:
Too many in the Church, he laments, approach the Council through a “hermeneutic of rupture”; and a “hermeneutic of discontinuity” with the past. (“Hermeneutic” basically means, “interpretation”. Thus, Pope Benedict says, many Catholics have approached the Council with an interpretation of rupture with the past.) The proper way to approach the Council, he insists, is through a “hermeneutic of continuity”. His basic claim — and this has always been his claim as Cardinal Ratzinger — is that Vatican II did not constitute a rupture with Tradition, but a legitimate development of it. We can find this legitimate development if we approach the Council through a hermeneutic — an interpretation — of continuity.
It seems, according to some, that Benedict XVI does not employ a traditional terminology, but a new one (“hermeneutic of continuity”). This in my ignorant mind means a major thing that requires much carefulness: the Holy Father is providing a way to understand something, and as a Catholic I do believe that the Holy Spirit enlightens the Vicar of Christ on matters of faith. Thus, I do not consider that the most prudent reaction would be simply to dismiss this as “outright error” and then go ahead and mock it. Even if it were only Cardinal Ratzinger to speak, I would keep in mind his deep theological knowledge…how much more when the one who speaks is the Bishop of Rome, who according to our Tradition has special light on matters of faith…
 
Where I disagree
Just a side note: I do not mean by this that I agree with all he said prior to this. I mean that personally I entirely disagree with that specific approach to the term “hermeneutics of continuity”.
 
You misspelled “Maximilian Krah.”
A sorry admission, but I was unaware of the drama concerning this man. Having taken a brief look-see, it appears from an extensive interview by R. Siscoe in 2012, that he was being “used as an indirect attack” on the leadership of the SSPX - and unless i’m mistaken, he appears to be a very honest person:confused:in that, I like his replies.

What is relevant to this thread, is a believable (to me at least, being myself ex-SSPX) scenario describing how some of their faithful are thinking and acting during these times.
Code:
					** 						 						Siscoe: *** 						 						Has it been difficult to deal with the rumors and  						accusations made against you?*
					 						** 						 						Krah:**  						It is never a pleasure to be the victim of a stalking  						campaign. But these attacks on me were used as an  						indirect attack against the Superior General and other  						Superiors like Fr. Rostand.   In 2010, when the attacks  						against me began, the stalkers were still too scrupulous  						to attack Bishop Fellay directly. Since then, they have  						lost all inhibitions.  And the more open they attacked  						the hierarchy itself, the less they focused on me –  						which reveals their true intention. When I see all the  						hate and malice against such a noble and decent prelate  						as Bishop Fellay, I can hardly think that those attacks  						against me are very serious. I try not to take myself as  						being too important, and so I don´t care too much about  						these attacks. Most people don´t take this nonsense  						seriously, and once people meet me and hear my side of  						the story they realize that the rumors are nonsense.    						This gives me an inner peace. And, not to forget: Faith  						helps, especially in such situations of unjust attacks.  						We shall not fear the evil, as we can be sure to win at  						the end.
					 						 						 
					 						** 						 						Siscoe: *** 						 						Is there something you have learned thru these attacks?*
					 						** 						 						Krah:**  						I learned a lot about how people act, but also about  						myself. What seems to me worth mentioning is that the  						most serious attacks against the SSPX are coming from  						inside. The self-declared “truest Catholics” slander,  						slur, and defame in a way which is intolerable and  						beyond everything we see even in the secular world.  						Without any respect for dignity and sacrality… even the  						Superior General is the victim of odious attacks. The  						forces of darkness are no longer restricted to external  						weapons, but have found their instruments in some weak  						and unbalanced persons within. It seems to me that we  						are not yet fully aware of this new danger.


					** 						 						Siscoe: *** 						 						Thank you very much for your time, and for answering  						these questions.*  						
					 						** 						 						Krah:**  						Thank you… and maybe… We both know what is likely to  						happen next. The Maximilian Krah stalking community will  						take every word I said in this interview and try to turn  						it in it´s opposite. Just to remember: I am not an  						English native speaker.  English is a second language  						for me.  But I think everyone who has a sense of  						fairness will be able to understand what I have tried to  						express.  I am simply a Catholic husband and father who  						is trying live his Faith and to do the best he can.
 
Just a side note: I do not mean by this that I agree with all he said prior to this. I mean that personally I entirely disagree with that specific approach to the term “hermeneutics of continuity”.
I did understand it the way you intended, and :Dthanks for your excellent post which shed alot of light on the complexities of his thinking and ‘logic’:confused: not sure I can wrap my mind around it just yet…but am trying to.
 
Some many months ago, contrasting the nasty, nasty rhetoric of Bishop Williamson against his superior, with the charitable and thorough and very Catholic explanations of BrotherJR helped me immensely along the Catholic road.

So, what I think of BW’s criticisms are that they shed light on the soul of the SSPX. There are many SSPX centers that have been heavily influenced by BW’s way of thinking about culture and the Faith. He is thought of as a “charming” and “awesome” man in some SSPX circles (and not just “resistance” circles).

I was disturbed by the tone and content of his newsletters.
 
I don’t think that he is an influential as you think, GM. At one time, yes, but not for some time now.

I honestly don’t know what Bishop Fellay expects from his subordinates - the SSPX, although initially started on the up and up and to educate seminarians in the traditional manner - soon enough morphed into disobedience. How can an organization, which owes its continuing existence to its continuing disobedience, expect and demand obedience from its priests and laity?
 
Some many months ago, contrasting the nasty, nasty rhetoric of Bishop Williamson against his superior, with the charitable and thorough and very Catholic explanations of BrotherJR helped me immensely along the Catholic road.

I was disturbed by the tone and content of his newsletters.
Me too:( seems to me like he’s in this version…
http://www.rns.co.in/images/phocagallery/Film/thumbs/phoca_thumb_l_alice-in-wonderland-movie.jpg
…and just does not realize it - while he makes these outrageous statements:

"Thus the paragraph as a whole constitutes a most clever step-wise movement from a shadow of truth to the outright error of the “hermeneutic of continuity”, which is pure Alice in Wonderland – “Words mean what I say they mean”, thunders Humpty Dumpty.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

Regardless of their canonical status, the SSPX bishops are still bishops and must be treated with the same respect as any other bishop. We can disagree without cross the line of respect.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

Regardless of their canonical status, the SSPX bishops are still bishops and must be treated with the same respect as any other bishop. We can disagree without cross the line of respect.
Thank you sir for reminding those among us who do not seem to believe that the Priests and Bishops of the SSPX are indeed valid Clergy, thatthey are.

Unfortunately, those people feelings probably run too deep to show let alone truly feel any respect for the clergy of the SSPX.
 
Since i am not a member or supporter of the SSPX I don’t feel as if I have the right to comment on their internal affairs, which affect absolutely no one except themselves.
 
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