What do traditionalists think of the Piano?

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Hi 🙂 which document mentions joint choirs. I would like to read it for future reference.
 
Encyclicals are not binding.

Please read this thread
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Encyclicals Question Moral Theology
If Encyclicals do not contain binding doctrine, why are they written?
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As beautiful as the playing may be (and it is!), if I’m trying to pray, that music is goIng to give me a hard time. It’s very staccato as one would expect percussion to be. Each stroked note draws my attention away from prayer. Could I sit quietly and listen? Sure, but that is often not what I am doing.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
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DaveBj:
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Aquinas11:
I could be wrong but think OP is asking about mutually exclusive instruments, i.e. that aren’t played together, such as Piano and Organ. Voice and Organ frequently go together.
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Piano and organ not played together? Since when?

D
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Talk to a piano tuner about inharmonicity that all pianos have but is not present in pipe organs. That makes impossible to tune a piano and and organ so that they are perfectly in tune with each other. This does not stop people from trying to play them together, but they really shouldn’t.
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Musicians usually find a way to make mismatched instruments work together, even if it’s just to put them together and start playing. The public won’t notice any intonation problems.

A violinist playing with a piano has to compromise between the exact intonation which is possible on the violin and the tempered intonation of a piano.

I thought this sounded rather good…

# Flor Peeters (1903-1986) : Concerto pour orgue et orchestre (1944)
 
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Hi, I am a music student and a choral student who studied at a university. Please let me explain in a detail to you as I love this instrument- if this helps.

So, a piano has approx. 8 scales. Compared to an organ, piano has three pedals. Now, the sound of organ and piano is distinctively different- the organ depends on the pedal (if I am correct) and has a spreading sound and has a piping sound, while piano doesn’t, unless you press the pedal. Piano has more room for improvisation (word for personalization- meaning you can play around with the notes, make it your own.)

The organ sounds more reverent to solemn music settings. For example, if it is a tridentine mass, then an organ would be more fitting. But if it is a personal time that you want to devote yourself to the Lord, then piano is a great choice also. I like to play “O Come Immanuel” on the piano and sing it in a devotional manner for Advent season to come.

Piano, however, can be played in solemn settings in different cases because masses have been written in orchestra form where piano IS included. This is included in Ola Gjeilo’s Sunrise Mass and other modern-themed masses which includes all parts of the mass. I performed this and it sounds great.

However, there is an instance where it is a modern piece and an organ IS included. An example is Kim Andre Arnesen’s Magnificat- which is the “my soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord…” you know what I mean lol

but anyways. Music is a gift- I would say, there are so many instruments you can use. Since you are asking of traditionalism, I think you would really appreciate this song so I will post it.


Pax Christi!
 
I think it is gorgeous, and would be happy to have this in my church. Of course, I’m not a “traditionalist” and tend to think that whenever we have someone who is willing to provide music for the church, let them go for it. I’d kill for even a guitar player since we are looking at losing the other two accompanists we have and I can’t cover everything regularly. A guitar player would at least give me a slight break. If we had one of these, I’d be thrilled.
 
If we were to obey an encyclical prior to an updated one, aren’t we being disobedient to the update? And it’s Pope?

Ie the Jewish question.

We cannot state ‘ I happen to know’ and leave it, there was a lot of documentation out of Vatican II.

We must speak from an educated stance
 
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Edmundus1581 said:
My feelings on this have always been “conservative” and high-church. So I’ve preferred traditional music, organs, a-cappella, etc, to the point of wanting the Church to just return to all the old practices.

Even then, I didn’t know that female voices in the choir was a “novelty,” as the first “traditional” choir I heard in Mass was 50% female, and it was a fine choir singing the best of liturgical music.

But my views have changed.

A few years ago I made facebook friends with a Nigerian priest. He runs a seminary and other Church activities in Nigeria. One Christmas he shared a video of his seminarians singing a Christmas “song”. It had congo drums, a swirling organ sound, and a catchy beat. After some time I realised they were singing “Thine be the Glory” in their own language. The melody was the original, but they had played it the way they would if they’d been given any melody and set out to accompany it with their own instruments and musical skills (which were quite high)

It was beautiful, reverent and from the heart. I’d never try to impose western music on them,

Since then, I’ve been in favour of cultural adaptation of liturgical music.
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My Nigerian friend has shared the video of his seminarians singing Thine Be the Glory, with an electronic organ, congos and African rhythms.

Highly recommended! Trust me. 😊💗

He’s shared it as ‘Public’ on facebook, so anyone with a fb login can see it…

https://www.facebook.com/fadalucas.ogbonn/posts/606091886492792

The segment of the Mass is also worth seeing.
 
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Actually, dulcimers are traditionally associated with the angels…

The thing with the Church’s music options is that a lot of stuff is permitted, but the amount of desirability is on a definite scale. So if all things are equal, in the Latin/Roman rite, it is chant, then polyphony, then singing with organ accompaniment, then singing with orchestral instruments, and then singing with anything else you have. (Electronic instruments can be okay under certain circumstances; but recorded music can never be used during Mass as an offering to God, because we are humans and not robots.)

However, a parish has the responsibility to understand its own resources. If you cannot afford an organ, or the space is too small, you do not have to feel obliged to get an organ. It would be silly. If everybody has vocal disabilities, you don’t try to force congregational singing. And so on.

Chant is the cheapest option, but it requires singers who know chants, or who can learn them. It also requires some time to gear up the program, and some patience from the congregation. Same thing with polyphony.

There are many styles and kinds of music that the Church does not want at Mass, but is fine with people using in devotional situations. Since most parishes in the US do not have anything devotional going on except Mass, people keep trying to throw everything into Mass.

I think that is a shame, because there is a lot of fun and enrichment in purely devotional occasions and purely devotional music. That is where we can mix sacred and secular, or do crazy emotional stuff that would be out of place at Mass, or dance, or whatever else is humanly appropriate.

It’s the difference between a wedding and a wedding reception.

Nobody wants to hurt anybody’s feelings. But the Mass demands sacred music – music set apart and only given to God. Sacred music is supposed to help everyone in the congregation, performers and hearers alike, imitate the saints and angels and join them in worshipful song to God. It should be a sign of how we are offering Him our bodies and souls and lives during the Mass, in union with Christ’s eternal offering of Himself.

So it comes from us, but it is not about us.
 
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I think that Catholic Answers should strongly consider doing a conference on “Music in the Mass” and other musical topics.

Like it or not, the issue of music is tough for many Catholics.

As an ex-Protestant, I (and my husband, too), lived through the “Music Wars” in the late 1960s, when rock musicians like Larry Norman were asking, “Why should the devil have all the good music?”"

It took decades before Protestant churches (most of the denominations, BTW) resolved their music wars and made peace with different styles of music.

I (and my husband) converted to Catholicism in 2004 and we’re re-living those music wars in the Catholic Church! Aarrgh!

So I am very serious when I suggest that Catholic Answers, a well-known and trusted organization among many Catholics, should consider hosting a “Mass Music Conference,” lasting several days, and include seminars and workshops featuring many different music topics that often come up on this forum; e.g., “What Instruments are “allowed” in the Mass?” or “Gregorian Chant–How to Get It Going in Your Parish.” or “The Alarming Decrease in Organists, and What Parishes Can Do About It.”

Musicians, composers, and others could be invited to speak and present workshops and concerts. The American Guild of Organists would probably LOVE to bring a whole entourage, and do workshops with adults and children, as well as play for Masses and present concerts!

Perhaps Ora Labora’s home-grown schola could be invited and not only provide music at Masses, but also do a workshop on “How To Get A Schola Going In Your Parish!”

And of course, Catholic contemporary musicians (Marty Haugen!) and rock musicians (Matt Maher, etc.) could be invited to do workshops, provide Mass music, and perform concerts (not just for the “youth”!)

When I finish my book about “My View From The Piano Bench” I could be there and sign autographs!

And I think front-and-center should be sessions dealing with the various controversies. It would be good for CAF to organize speakers’ forums in which several viewpoints were presented and debated (with civility, of course). And the Keynote Speaker should be someone who is an expert on the Church Documents and can present the “facts” about music in the Mass and what Holy Mother Church actually teaches about it.

Would YOU be there?

What say you, Catholic Answers? Please think about it. And don’t be afraid of the controversy, please. We’re all living with it, especially those of us who are volunteer parish musicians.
 
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The Church Music Association of America is probably the premiere Catholic group for this, and I would love to see them team up with Catholic Answers.

CMAA does run a lot of workshops, has the big symposium/music boot camp every year, and provides a lot of free, public domain materials, as well as their superb chant and hymn books. Musicasacra.com is their website. (They also have gone of Church documents on music online, etc.)

The other (much bigger) Catholic musician organization, NLM, is kinda schizophrenic about the Church teachings on Mass music. They mean well, but they also exist almost as an arm of the major Catholic hymnbook publishers. So they have a great reluctance to discourage anything done by anyone.
 
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JButky said:
I’ve read this a couple times on this thread and am wondering why some don’t consider Voice as an instrument? Voice is taught (as is vocal singing , a technique) as an instrument.
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Hi! You are right. As a classically trained musician in both piano and voice, but voice being my main instrument, the voice is an instrument… just an organic one, rather than one outside of the body. We go through years of just as rigorous training for the voice as any other musician studying a different instrument. But, unfortunately, there has always been a stigma with the voice from non-musicians and even from other musicians, due to the nature of the instrument, itself and history of singers. Many people who can sing, but were NOT formally trained, can’t read music, so they don’t have the abilities to do with the voice in equivalence to what a trained musician on different instrument would be able to attain. They have more of a “unrefined” talent, although sometimes they can be very pleasant to listen to. However, they are not respected as an instrument by both the music and non-music communities. (And even some classically trained singers didn’t read music. But I find that to not be the case any longer. Most classically-trained singers I work with can read music.) Because of that history, so many don’t consider us as musicians or an instrument.

But that’s besides the point of the OP. LOL! In regard to organ vs. piano, while I LOVE the piano, I do prefer the organ at mass. I don’t mind the piano, though, especially if that is the only instrument they have and either can’t afford to fix an old organ or to purchase a new one. However, the choice of well-trained organists are becoming smaller and smaller. Music schools are closing their organ departments because not enough musicians are majoring in it. It becomes a vicious cycle, too. When you hear lousy organists, you begin to dislike the organ. So, if you become a musician you will have a negative connotation with the organ. I have brides who thought they hated the organ and only wanted the piano, then came to our church with a real, full, grand pipe organ with a good organist and were blown away by it.
 
My parish runs a chant camp for the kids. They also have a choristers group for young kids who chant at some Masses throughout the year. They sound as good as the adult choir, just young voices. So, with hard work chant can be done.

Not sure if the OP was asking our opinion for Latin Mass or Mass in general. I feel like for Latin Mass, it’s either organ or nothing. You can always have a low Mass, music is not required to have Mass.
 
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