What do we know about angels?

[firstmode]

Hey guys, what do we know about angels (in Christianity) based off of the Bible, the writings of the church fathers and councils, and church tradition?

If you have any verses or quotes to go along with your statement, I think that it would be much more profitable to the conversation.

Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to the Trallians 1:

1. Am I not able to write to you of heavenly things? But I fear I could harm you who are yet but babes in Christ (excuse me this concern), because if you are not able to receive them, you might be choked by them.
2. For even I myself, although I am in bonds, yet am not therefore able to understand heavenly things:
3. Such as the places of the angels, and the several companies of them under their respective princes, or of things visible and invisible, for of these I am still learning.
4. For many things are lacking to us, so that we do not come short of God.

 

[FightingFat]

newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

 

[firstmode]

I appreciate the link to an article, but I was hoping to start a discussion where we bring up specific points about angels and what different Christian faiths believe (and why) about angels.

I realize there are books and web sites out there dedicated to this, but a discussion format is much more interesting in my opinion.

 

[FightingFat]

I understand, sorry. Well, The angels are represented throughout the Bible as a body of spiritual beings intermediate between God and men: “You have made him (man) a little less than the angels” (Psalm 8:6). They, equally with man, are created beings; “praise ye Him, all His angels: praise ye Him, all His hosts . . . for He spoke and they were made. He commanded and they were created” (Psalm 148:2-5; Colossians 1:16-17). That the angels were created was laid down in the Fourth Lateran Council (1215). The decree “Firmiter” against the Albigenses declared both the fact that they were created and that men were created after them. This decree was repeated by the Vatican Council, “Dei Filius”. We mention it here because the words: “He that liveth for ever created all things together” (Ecclesiasticus 18:1) have been held to prove a simultaneous creation of all things; but it is generally conceded that “together” (simul) may here mean “equally”, in the sense that all things were “alike” created. They are spirits; the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews says: “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister to them who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14).

Probably the pre-eminent writer on angels was Thomas Aquinas. He spent a considerable amount of space in the Summa Theologiae, among other places, discussing the nature, activities and moral state of angels. Often, he would use the nature of the angels to illuminate the nature of human cognition by refering to angels as the extreme of what is possible for an intellectual nature to be. He also discusses them for their own sakes, but all the time keeping his remarks bound by the limits of the definitive teaching of Sacred Scripture, and by the rigors of consistent thinking.

Thomas gives an argument that the perfection of the universe requires the existence of intellectual creatures. Since God intends the good for His creation, he intends that it be like Himself. And since an effect is most like its cause when it shares with it the feature whereby it was caused, God’s creation must contain something with intellect and will since that is how God creates, i.e. by first knowing it and loving it into being.

Hence the perfection of the universe requires that there should be intellectual creatures. Now to understand cannot be the action of a body, nor of any corporeal power… Hence the perfection of the universe requires the existence of an incorporeal creature. (ST Ia 50, 1)
However, since humans are intellectual creatures, as he indicates at the end of this very argument, the need for some intellectual creatures is not sufficient to give us knowledge of the existence of purely intellectual creatures which the angels are.

Since Sacred Scripture does speak definitively about the existence of angels, it belongs to Sacred Doctrine, i.e. theology, to treat of angels in a truly scientific manner. The divine science has the intellectual tools (faith in Scripture) to establish both the fact of angels and their nature (ST Ia, 1, 3). Having accepted on faith that angels exist, or taking their existence to be purely hypothetical, one can still draw certain philosophical conclusions about their nature. Thomas’ words in the Summa are an excellent guide for how one can think clearly about the angelic hosts.

For Thomas, given that angels are intellectual creatures, they must be pure spirit, i.e. self-subsistent forms. They are completely incorporeal; they are in no way material, and have no bodies of any kind.(Ia 50, 2) Some, Franciscan theologians of the 13th century (St. Bonaventure among them), believed that angels, like everything other than God, were composed of matter and form. These thinkers, holders of the theory of “universal hylemorphism” as it was called, believed that, whereas sensible things in the world around us had corporeal matter, angels had spiritual matter. For Aquinas, the idea of spiritual matter was a complete confusion. If a thing is spiritual, then, insofar as it is spiritual, it is not material in the sense that it is not composed of matter. (Even though humans are both spiritual and material, their spiritual soul is not composed of spiritual matter and form as the Franciscan believed.)

 

[firstmode]

I find the remark about spiritual matter interesting.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 (New Living Translation)

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.”[a] But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.**

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53** For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.**

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?[e]”

56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless.**

 

[firstmode]

2 Corinthians 5 (New Living Translation)

2 Corinthians 5

New Bodies

1 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.[a] 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10 For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

 

[firstmode]

Philippians 3:12-21 (New Living Translation)

Pressing toward the Goal

12 I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. 13 No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it,[a] but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us.

15 Let all who are spiritually mature agree on these things. If you disagree on some point, I believe God will make it plain to you. 16 But we must hold on to the progress we have already made.

17 Dear brothers and sisters, pattern your lives after mine, and learn from those who follow our example. 18 For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and they think only about this life here on earth. 20 But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior. 21 He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.

 

[firstmode]

Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to the Smyrnaeans

Ch 2: 12. Let no man deceive himself: both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels and princes, whether visible or invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, they will be condemned.

 

[firstmode]

I wonder about this passage from the Gospel talking about Angels, it seems to me that Jesus is referencing the obedient angels of heaven do not marry or are given to marriage. There has been debate on whether an angel could have sexual feelings if they were fallen. In the Holy Scriptures of the Oriental Orthodox Church, it is said that Angels in heaven came down, leaving heaven behind, to have “relations” with beautiful human women.

Matthew 22:23-33 (New Living Translation)

Discussion about Resurrection

23 That same day Jesus was approached by some Sadducees—religious leaders who say there is no resurrection from the dead. They posed this question: 24 “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies without children, his brother should marry the widow and have a child who will carry on the brother’s name.’[a] 25 Well, suppose there were seven brothers. The oldest one married and then died without children, so his brother married the widow. 26 But the second brother also died, and the third brother married her. This continued with all seven of them. 27 Last of all, the woman also died. 28 So tell us, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? For all seven were married to her.”

29 Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. 30 For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.

31 “But now, as to whether there will be a resurrection of the dead—haven’t you ever read about this in the Scriptures? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said,** 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[c] So he is the God of the living, not the dead.”

33 When the crowds heard him, they were astounded at his teaching.**

 

[mark_avery]

The angels are the servants off our Lord,very real and indeed full of love but just like in revelations also terrorizing giants!

I`m sure we all have guardian angels,who are extremely funny,which i have once witnessed.
They surely play an active role under our blessed lady,and are your best friends also.
I would also suggest they enjoy your company more when your i.e asleep or with good intentions quiet and reverent and without doubt or self righteousness.

We are very small when comparison`s are necessary,so their work is much appreciated.

 

[firstmode]

How much have we learned about angels outside of Sacred Scripture? For instance, what have we learned about angels through the church fathers and councils?

 

[cooterhein]

This topic’s kind of interesting to me. Even with some of the things found in the Bible, some of the material about angels is often relegated to the “firmament” sort of category where some of the things about angels that we get from Jewish tradition are held to be…how can I put this…things that were a part of their tradition about angels but not things that they actually knew to be true.

For example. Couple of examples, actually.

On a number of occasions, various parts of the Old Testament present strong links between angels and stars. These links aren’t made anywhere in the New Testament, and it seems that these links are made on roughly the same basis as references to “the firmament above us.” As the stars shone “through the firmament,” as it were, they were thought to be angels. The stars (and the firmament) are both spoken of in Scripture from this point of view, and God must have decided not to correct them on either of these points. I think this (along with a couple of other things) represents some material from Jewish traditions that they used to believe, but they didn’t really “know” these things. So I think we have to look at some of this stuff (even if it’s a highly-regarded church father or some other ancient source) as material that may have been part of traditions and beliefs but maybe not things that they actually knew. It can go either way.

One other example comes from one of the Greek profs I used to have. He lived in Israel for awhile- actually grew up there as a kid and spent a good deal of his adult life there before becoming a professor in America. Naturally, he got to know a lot of Jews from the whole range of ultra-orthodox to reformed. I can’t remember exactly how it happened, but he somehow became aware of the fact that one of his female acquaintances would always sing in the shower. (He might have heard about it second-hand; I can’t really remember). Upon further questioning, he found out that it had to do with angels. Apparently, some people hold to the belief that their guardian angel is always there and is always watching, except when you’re indecent. While showering, the guardian angel will supposedly try to turn his back and avert his eyes as much as possible unless you’re in some kind of danger. At this point, it’s considered good form for you to sing so he knows you’re ok. Again, it’s tradition, it’s not really something anyone can claim to know. And I guess this tradition goes back a really long way, but the extent to which it’s survived is somewhat limited- although it’s not unheard of in some parts of the world.

That story came up because of something from 1 Corinthians 11- “That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.” It’s one of those passages that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense unless you know something about their angel-related tradition that never made its way into the contemporary Christian understanding of angelology.

One other thing I’ve always wondered about is the angels (and demons) that are named and talked about outside the 66 canonical books. (Yes, I know, most of you use the Septuagint as your basis for the OT, but you don’t use the entire Septuagint and this pick-and-choose method continues to mystify me). Anyway, I’ve always wondered about names like Azazel and Raphael (from Enoch and Tobit; also in the Hadith) or Azrael or Lillith. I haven’t looked into the different sources or their authors (though that’s not always possible) to the extent that I can know whether they were talking about tradition-related things that no one actually knows anything about, or if there really was some sort of revelatory event whereby someone would know these names and the beings to whom they belong.

I don’t really know who I can talk to about that, although I guess the aforementioned Greek prof knows a thing or two. Or at least he knows some people who can come up with some of those answers. I might have to get in touch with him at some point. I highly doubt that it’s a really simplistic issue, though.

 

[firstmode]

1 Corinthians 11:

4 A man dishonors his head** if he covers his head while praying or prophesying. 5 But a woman dishonors her head[c] if she prays or prophesies without a covering on her head, for this is the same as shaving her head. 6 Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair! But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, she should wear a covering.[d]

7 A man should not wear anything on his head when worshiping, for man is made in God’s image and reflects God’s glory. And woman reflects man’s glory. 8 For the first man didn’t come from woman, but the first woman came from man. 9 And man was not made for woman, but woman was made for man. 10 For this reason, and because the angels are watching, a woman should wear a covering on her head to show she is under authority.e**

 

[Shin]

St. Augustine, in City of God, goes into some of the details of these matters.

 

[flyonthewall]

I am curious about where the concept of angels being creatures of pure spirit and intellect, comes from.
Is it based upon scriptures? where did this originate?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I am curious about where the concept of angels being creatures of pure spirit and intellect, comes from.
Is it based upon scriptures? where did this originate?

First of all Christianity is not the only religion which believes in spiritual beings. The sense of the spiritual is a lot stronger in the East than in the West. I remember a missionary stating that if we said to a Westerner in general discussion, “You know, there are spirits in this room”, they’d shuffle uncomfortably, say “Well, that’s nice” and give their apologies to go and talk to somebody else. But if you said it to an Asian, they’d probably say, “So what?” It would be like saying “The sky is blue”. Take a look at all those Japanese films like “The Ring” for example (not that I’ve seen it - those psychological films bore me silly), or the number of Asian films involving ghosts.

So I don’t think the idea of angels and demons is necessarily restricted to Christianity.

However the impression one gets from Scripture is that they’re spiritual.

Secondly they talk, so they’re intelligent. And what they say makes sense, and is directed to a particular end.

On those relatively rare occasions when they are reported to appear to people, they seem to be in human form. However I wonder if this is a condescension to our perceptions, since I think they communicate directly to our minds, even if they appear to be talking.

Their intelligence is intuitive - that is, they don’t need to go and recite the 2 times tables to learn arithmetic - they just know it and anything else they need to know, including quantum physics I assume, if they need to know it. Or they may not be interested.

They communicate in some fashion between each other, but we don’t know how.

I once had the experience, when I was about to do something very shoddy, of somebody just appearing in front of me. He looked a bit like me, and I just went down like a pole axed bull, and woke up rather shakily a few minutes later. I suspect it was my guardian angel protecting me from myself.

On one occasion, fairly early in my Christian walkI got a bit pally with God in my mind. I can still remember this sense of intense anger descending on me, and I had to pull over as I was driving. I literally thought I was going to disintegrate. *It wasn’t very pleasant. * Now I don’t know if it was God or an angel doing that. I suspect it was an angel.

When Christ mentioned we’ll be like angels and not marry, he added the rider, “you will be like the angels in that respect.” That is, neither we nor they will marry in heaven. But there obviously are other characteristics that we won’t share.

To me, basically, they are messengers. In Revelation it mentions the “two witnesses”. There’s a number of different interpretations of this passage, but for my money, I think they’ll be a couple of angels, for a number of reasons -

1. They’ll have enormous power.
2. Their power will be so great that it would go to the heads of any humans. We couldn’t be trusted with it.
3. Men can’t harm them, and the final battle will be directly between them and the devil.
4. They’ll simply be carrying out orders eg. causing a flood or earthquake or whatever. Not being human, and simply intent on carrying out orders, they’ll do whatever it takes without losing any sleep over it, even if their actions involved killing a large number of people.

And they seem to have a job to do. Even the devil has, when it comes to that. When I protested to my old pastor, “What the heck did God make the devil for?”, he thought for a moment, shrugged, and said, “Oh, I suppose he’s got a job to do.” And what he said just seemed to be correct.

 

[flyonthewall]

First of all Christianity is not the only religion which believes in spiritual beings. The sense of the spiritual is a lot stronger in the East than in the West. I remember a missionary stating that if we said to a Westerner in general discussion, “You know, there are spirits in this room”, they’d shuffle uncomfortably, say “Well, that’s nice” and give their apologies to go and talk to somebody else. But if you said it to an Asian, they’d probably say, “So what?” It would be like saying “The sky is blue”. Take a look at all those Japanese films like “The Ring” for example (not that I’ve seen it - those psychological films bore me silly), or the number of Asian films involving ghosts.

So I don’t think the idea of angels and demons is necessarily restricted to Christianity.

However the impression one gets from Scripture is that they’re spiritual.

Secondly they talk, so they’re intelligent. And what they say makes sense, and is directed to a particular end.

On those relatively rare occasions when they are reported to appear to people, they seem to be in human form. However I wonder if this is a condescension to our perceptions, since I think they communicate directly to our minds, even if they appear to be talking.

Their intelligence is intuitive - that is, they don’t need to go and recite the 2 times tables to learn arithmetic - they just know it and anything else they need to know, including quantum physics I assume, if they need to know it. Or they may not be interested.

They communicate in some fashion between each other, but we don’t know how.

I once had the experience, when I was about to do something very shoddy, of somebody just appearing in front of me. He looked a bit like me, and I just went down like a pole axed bull, and woke up rather shakily a few minutes later. I suspect it was my guardian angel protecting me from myself.

On one occasion, fairly early in my Christian walkI got a bit pally with God in my mind. I can still remember this sense of intense anger descending on me, and I had to pull over as I was driving. I literally thought I was going to disintegrate. *It wasn’t very pleasant. * Now I don’t know if it was God or an angel doing that. I suspect it was an angel.

When Christ mentioned we’ll be like angels and not marry, he added the rider, “you will be like the angels in that respect.” That is, neither we nor they will marry in heaven. But there obviously are other characteristics that we won’t share.

To me, basically, they are messengers. In Revelation it mentions the “two witnesses”. There’s a number of different interpretations of this passage, but for my money, I think they’ll be a couple of angels, for a number of reasons -

1. They’ll have enormous power.
2. Their power will be so great that it would go to the heads of any humans. We couldn’t be trusted with it.
3. Men can’t harm them, and the final battle will be directly between them and the devil.
4. They’ll simply be carrying out orders eg. causing a flood or earthquake or whatever. Not being human, and simply intent on carrying out orders, they’ll do whatever it takes without losing any sleep over it, even if their actions involved killing a large number of people.

And they seem to have a job to do. Even the devil has, when it comes to that. When I protested to my old pastor, “What the heck did God make the devil for?”, he thought for a moment, shrugged, and said, “Oh, I suppose he’s got a job to do.” And what he said just seemed to be correct.

This is all fine and good, but not really what I was looking for. There are a lot of assumptions being made without much to justify or explain the assumptions.

There has to be an origin to the concept that angels are beings of spirit and intellect, whether it be from the scriptures, or from tradition.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

This is all fine and good, but not really what I was looking for. There are a lot of assumptions being made without much to justify or explain the assumptions.

There has to be an origin to the concept that angels are beings of spirit and intellect, whether it be from the scriptures, or from tradition.

In the final analysis, it would come from personal experience, since Scripture writers *wrote from personal experience. * And personal experience is subject to assumption.

When Gabriel turned up to talk to Mary, she would not have needed either Scriptural or traditional theology to work out what he was. It would have been obvious.

If he just appeared in her room, spoke to her, then disappeared, then she would have assumed he was spiritual. Since he spoke and communicated clearly, she’s have assumed he was intelligent.

Scripture is just the condensed experiences of the Jews, the writers, the prophets, the apostles, Paul and the very early Church. And so is tradition. And it’s all built on personal experience.

 

[flyonthewall]

To prove that He was not a spirit Jesus Christ had the apostles touch Him and ate food:

39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43And he took it, and did eat before them.

Angels in the OT have been fed, and had physical interaction with people, which by the means of proof that Jesus provided, would prove that they were not spirits. So, where does the concept that angels are spirits come from?

 

[campeador]

To prove that He was not a spirit Jesus Christ had the apostles touch Him and ate food:

Angels in the OT have been fed, and had physical interaction with people, which by the means of proof that Jesus provided, would prove that they were not spirits. So, where does the concept that angels are spirits come from?

The story of Tobit takes place around 721 BC, during the deportation of captives to Nineveh from the northern kingdom of Israel under Sargon II. According to most sources, this Scripture was written in the 2nd century BC. Four fragmentary texts in Aramaic and one in Hebrew were found at Qumran.

Tobit 12:15-20

“I am Raphael,** one of the seven angels** who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.” Stricken with fear, the two men fell to the ground. But Raphael said to them: “No need to fear; you are safe. Thank God now and forever. As for me, when I came to you it was not out of any favor on my part, but because it was God’s will. So continue to thank him every day; praise him with song. Even though you watched me eat and drink, I did not really do so; what you were seeing was a vision. So now get up from the ground and praise God. Behold, I am about to ascend to him who sent me; write down all these things that have happened to you.”

I hope this helps.