What do you believe will happen if ....

[mpwit]

I am posting the following because after posing the following question on another thread, I was encouraged by these 2 posters to start a new thread with the question

Great question! Why don’t you begin a thread on it?

I agree with 1Tim215Mommy. This is an excellent question deserving a separate thread.

What do you believe will happen if …
within a muslim populated middle east country there was an adult muslim family member who one day declared for all to hear,
“I denounce Muhammad and Allah.”
“I am no longer a muslim, I am a bible believing born again Christian saved by the blood Jesus Christ shed for me at Calvary on the cross, and Jesus Christ, whose spirit reigns in me, is the one true God”…

If this were to happen, and probably has happened

What do you believe would happen after one stated their conversion?
Would they be allowed to continue living with their family, within their neighborhood without any consequenses because of their conversion to Christianity?

 

[GEddie]

I am posting the following because after posing the following question on another thread, I was encouraged by these 2 posters to start a new thread with the question

What do you believe will happen if …
within a muslim populated middle east country there was an adult muslim family member who one day declared for all to hear,
“I denounce Muhammad and Allah.”
“I am no longer a muslim, I am a bible believing born again Christian saved by the blood Jesus Christ shed for me at Calvary on the cross, and Jesus Christ, whose spirit reigns in me, is the one true God”…

If this were to happen, and probably has happened

What do you believe would happen after one stated their conversion?
Would they be allowed to continue living with their family, within their neighborhood without any consequenses because of their conversion to Christianity?

Depends upon the country, as some places there would only be social opprobrium; while in others the person would be killed.

ICXC NIKA

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I am posting the following because after posing the following question on another thread, I was encouraged by these 2 posters to start a new thread with the question

What do you believe will happen if …
within a muslim populated middle east country there was an adult muslim family member who one day declared for all to hear,
“I denounce Muhammad and Allah.”
“I am no longer a muslim, I am a bible believing born again Christian saved by the blood Jesus Christ shed for me at Calvary on the cross, and Jesus Christ, whose spirit reigns in me, is the one true God”…

If this were to happen, and probably has happened

What do you believe would happen after one stated their conversion?
Would they be allowed to continue living with their family, within their neighborhood without any consequenses because of their conversion to Christianity?

In almost every Moslem Country, such a statement would result in Death within minutes of it being uttered, and no police force in that country would even arrest the murderers.
There are murders of Coptic Christians on a daily basis in Egypt, simply because they are Christians…and in Iraq, not only have Christians become almost non existant, there is only one Iraqi Jew left in the country…in Bahgdad.
We live in an age of virulent militant Islam, in which the mass of the Moslem population in the Mid and Near East consider that theirs is the only true religion and all others, being false, have no right to exist, the “Peoples of the Book” sutra in the Quran not withstanding.

 

[Beryllos]

If you want to learn more, you could google “punishment for apostasy in Islam.”

 

[MartinJordan]

I am posting the following because after posing the following question on another thread, I was encouraged by these 2 posters to start a new thread with the question

What do you believe will happen if …
within a muslim populated middle east country there was an adult muslim family member who one day declared for all to hear,
“I denounce Muhammad and Allah.”
“I am no longer a muslim, I am a bible believing born again Christian saved by the blood Jesus Christ shed for me at Calvary on the cross, and Jesus Christ, whose spirit reigns in me, is the one true God”…

If this were to happen, and probably has happened

What do you believe would happen after one stated their conversion?
Would they be allowed to continue living with their family, within their neighborhood without any consequenses because of their conversion to Christianity?

I think if one blurts this out without expecting any sort of repercussion would be naive to start with.

Besides while I am not a bible believing born again Christian (as in Bible is the sole authority believer who seems to be rejecting Catholicism:shrug: ), even if one were announcing full allegiance to our Lord Jesus Christ, keep in mind even before there were Muslims, Christians were persecuted, tortured and killed for the Faith.

Expect consternation and suffering (well we are supposed to carry the cross of suffering anyway).

MJ

 

[drac16]

It depends which country it happens in. From what I’ve heard, persons from nations like Turkey or Lebanon wouldn’t really care if you left Islam for Christianity. However, if you did this in a place like Pakistan or Iraq, there’s a strong possibility that you’d be killed. It pains me to see so much ignorance of Islam in the Middle East. Muslims complain so much that it’s the western world that demonizes Islam, but really, it’s the honor killings and suicide bombings that disgrace Islam the most.

It shouldn’t be this way, though. This ideology of gore and intolerance is not the Islam I know. Islam is about praying for a loved one that leaves Islam-- not threatening them or murdering them. So many people in the Middle East don’t know Islam from a hole in the ground. It breaks my heart.

 

[MartinJordan]

It depends which country it happens in. From what I’ve heard, persons from nations like Turkey or Lebanon wouldn’t really care if you left Islam for Christianity. However, if you did this in a place like Pakistan or Iraq, there’s a strong possibility that you’d be killed. It pains me to see so much ignorance of Islam in the Middle East. Muslims complain so much that it’s the western world that demonizes Islam, but really, it’s the honor killings and suicide bombings that disgrace Islam the most.

It shouldn’t be this way, though. This ideology of gore and intolerance is not the Islam I know. Islam is about praying for a loved one that leaves Islam-- not threatening them or murdering them. So many people in the Middle East don’t know Islam from a hole in the ground. It breaks my heart.

Drac, who are these Middle East people you are talking about? Will you dare to speak up against them? I think Muslims like you should create a organization that speaks up for the real Islam.

MJ

 

[drac16]

Drac, who are these Middle East people you are talking about? Will you dare to speak up against them? I think Muslims like you should create a organization that speaks up for the real Islam.

MJ

It’s all over the place. Of course, there are many pious muslims in the Middle East-- alhamdulillah for that. There’s also a lot of garbage though; ideolagies that are light years away from even being close to Islam.

Pakistan is infested with all manner of idolatry [or ‘shirk’ as we call it]. There are numerous people who go to fortune tellers, thinking that this person somehow has knowledge of the unseen that Allah doesn’t have. Many groups prostrate in front of graves, calling on dead sheikhs [who can’t hear them]. It’s a cesspool of shirk.

And then, of course, you have the sunni vs shia conflicts in Iraq. Fairly recently, the mosque of Imam Hussein [may Allah be pleased with him] was attacked by idiots who thought that they were doing Allah’s will by causing division. Sure, what those shias are doing in those mosques may be idolatrous, but that doesn’t give one the right to go out all Rambo-esque on them.

All of this could be solved upon genuine repentence and living by the Qur’an, but you see, shirk and suicide bombings and all that come from abandoning Qur’anic teaching-- not from adopting it. If Muhammad [peace be upon him] were to come back to Earth, he’d soon see the countless people claiming to be muslims that don’t listen to a word he said.

 

[MartinJordan]

It’s all over the place.

What is the excuse they give to substantiate this behavior?

Of course, there are many pious muslims in the Middle East-- alhamdulillah for that. There’s also a lot of garbage though; ideolagies that are light years away from even being close to Islam.

Maybe they need to listen to the Charity of God. If they are doing these horrible things in the name of God, surely they are deaf to His decrees.

Pakistan is infested with all manner of idolatry [or ‘shirk’ as we call it]. There are numerous people who go to fortune tellers, thinking that this person somehow has knowledge of the unseen that Allah doesn’t have. Many groups prostrate in front of graves, calling on dead sheikhs [who can’t hear them]. It’s a cesspool of shirk.

Oh dear.

And then, of course, you have the sunni vs shia conflicts in Iraq. Fairly recently, the mosque of Imam Hussein [may Allah be pleased with him] was attacked by idiots who thought that they were doing Allah’s will by causing division. Sure, what those shias are doing in those mosques may be idolatrous, but that doesn’t give one the right to go out all Rambo-esque on them.

All of this could be solved upon genuine repentence and living by the Qur’an, but you see, shirk and suicide bombings and all that come from abandoning Qur’anic teaching-- not from adopting it. If Muhammad [peace be upon him] were to come back to Earth, he’d soon see the countless people claiming to be muslims that don’t listen to a word he said.

Noted. I will pray for the Muslim people.

MJ

 

[drac16]

What is the excuse they give to substantiate this behavior?

I don’t know, but whatever it is, it is not scriptural, nor historical.

Maybe they need to listen to the Charity of God. If they are doing these horrible things in the name of God, surely they are deaf to His decrees.

Bingo. “When it is said to them: ‘Come to what Allah hath revealed, and to the Messenger’: Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust”. (Qur’an 4:61)

 

[MartinJordan]

I don’t know, but whatever it is, it is not scriptural, nor historical.

I’ll take your word for it.

Bingo. “When it is said to them: ‘Come to what Allah hath revealed, and to the Messenger’: Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust”. (Qur’an 4:61)

I can only refer to my Church’s teachings.

We need the fruits of the Holy Spirit that shows the way (if we allow God’s grace to work in us) to live in love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law - Galatians 5:22-23

 

[504Katrin]

It ain’t scriptural. Islam is a peaceful religion and everyone pious I know is quiet and humble. Problem is that some either interprete scripture the wrong way or I really don’t know what it is. Fire against the West is easily lit through the media and said people seem to cease evaluating things reasonably and instead hop right on the bandwagon of condemning us.

 

[mpwit]

MartinJordan

What is the excuse they give to substantiate this behavior?

I don’t know, but whatever it is, it is not scriptural, nor historical.

MartinJordan

I’ll take your word for it

Bingo. “When it is said to them: ‘Come to what Allah hath revealed, and to the Messenger’: Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust”. (Qur’an 4:61)

MartinJordan

What is the excuse they give to substantiate this behavior?

I don’t know, but whatever it is, it is* not scriptural*, nor historical.

not scriptural?? look at scripture below, you tell me what it means …

It shouldn’t be this way, though. This ideology of gore and
intolerance is not the Islam I know. Islam is about praying for a loved one that leaves Islam

you sure about that?

– not threatening them or murdering them.

Is there another version of the Qur’an where 8:13-15 teaches something different from scripture below?

– So many people in the Middle East don’t know Islam from a hole in the ground.

If I was muslim studying out of the Qur’an, and if someone became a non believer, I would murder them too in the name of Allah,

It is Scriptural. Isn’t it?
Correct me if I am wrong

It breaks my heart.

I am sure it does break your heart to read this violent truth for the first time

from the Qur’an ’

[8:13] When thy Lord revealed to the angels, saying, ‘I am with you; so give firmness to those who believe. I will cast** terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve ** Smite, then, the upper parts of their necks, and smite off all finger-tips.
[8:14] That is because they have opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoso opposes Allah and His Messenger, then Allah is surely severe in retribution.
[8:15] That is your punishment, taste it then; and know that for disbelievers there is the punishment of the Fire. **

smite …
to strike down, injure, or slay: His sword had smitten thousands.
to afflict or attack with deadly or disastrous effect:

It ain’t scriptural. Islam is a peaceful religion and everyone pious I know is quiet and humble. Problem is that some either interprete scripture the wrong way or I really don’t know what it is. Fire against the West is easily lit through the media and said people seem to cease evaluating things reasonably and instead hop right on the bandwagon of condemning us.

I am sure there are a lot of good peaceful muslims in the world, but the Quran is not a peaceful book

Islam… In the name of Allah, one is to defend him by sending their sons to kill or be killed by suicide bombings for example

Christianity…God sent His son Jesus to die for us

correct me if I am wrong

 

[Beryllos]

mpwit, why did you start this thread? Was it to see what other people think, or to encourage true dialogue, or to create a platform to broadcast and rally support for your particular views? When your thread first appeared, I did not have high hopes because I felt the question was leading, or a rhetorical question, intended to stir up trouble. To my surprise, forum members from all over the world have contributed many reasonable answers to your original question, and we’ve even seen some real back-and-forth dialogue between Catholic and Muslim forum members. So far, so good.

Then what’s up with your latest post? The discussion wasn’t fiery enough for you, so you figure it’s time to get out your flamethrower? I imagine you intend only to tell the truth as you see it. However, I must wonder how much you actually know about Islam and the Qur’an. If you are going to analyze Islam and the Qur’an and tell the rest of us what it means, first establish your credentials.

I assume you know the Bible well, since you have been raised with it and have read it all your life, so you know how to interpret some of the difficult passages, and also how to interpret the whole Bible, not just a selected verse, and use it as a guide in your life. Don’t you suppose good Muslims likewise know their own book, cover to cover, better than you, and can use it for good purposes?

If you turn your thread into a conflagration, I’m afraid it will disappear. That’s what happens to threads that promote interfaith conflict. It would be a significant loss, because this is mostly a good thread.

 

[mpwit]

ok I got a question,

what does 8:13-15 mean in the Quran?

 

[jakasaki]

mpwit, why did you start this thread? Was it to see what other people think, or to encourage true dialogue, or to create a platform to broadcast and rally support for your particular views? When your thread first appeared, I did not have high hopes because I felt the question was leading, or a rhetorical question, intended to stir up trouble. To my surprise, forum members from all over the world have contributed many reasonable answers to your original question, and we’ve even seen some real back-and-forth dialogue between Catholic and Muslim forum members. So far, so good.

Then what’s up with your latest post? The discussion wasn’t fiery enough for you, so you figure it’s time to get out your flamethrower? I imagine you intend only to tell the truth as you see it. However, I must wonder how much you actually know about Islam and the Qur’an. If you are going to analyze Islam and the Qur’an and tell the rest of us what it means, first establish your credentials.

I assume you know the Bible well, since you have been raised with it and have read it all your life, so you know how to interpret some of the difficult passages, and also how to interpret the whole Bible, not just a selected verse, and use it as a guide in your life. Don’t you suppose good Muslims likewise know their own book, cover to cover, better than you, and can use it for good purposes?

If you turn your thread into a conflagration, I’m afraid it will disappear. That’s what happens to threads that promote interfaith conflict. It would be a significant loss, because this is mostly a good thread.

There are a few hadiths written regarding 811-13 and they state that anyone who leaves the religion of Islam will be put to death.

It is also written in the Sunnah under punishment penalties.

 

[Beryllos]

mpwit, I have looked at the chapter in question, which I note is called “The Spoils of War,” and at first glance the verses you cite appear to describe how non-believing enemy combatants are to be dealt with. Allah tells his angels to smite them.

Please note, I am not a scholar of the Qur’an. I only now read that chapter so that I could try to answer your latest question. Therefore I may have interpreted it rather literally.

Tell me, how is your opinion informed? How did you arrive at your interpretation? Have you made a serious attempt to understand Islam? Taken any courses? Talked to any Muslims?

 

[CarolNoel]

I received this email from my cousin. He is a Deacon in the Catholic Church.

“The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church” (Tertullian). Where it is not persecuted, it often experiences a much worse fate, which is that it is co-opted by the local secular powers. I just came from a place where the Church is very actively and aggressively persecuted. I was most conscious of this when proclaiming the Gospel in the courtyard on Palm Sunday, or when I would preach two or three times a week, or walking to the Church in clerical garb (with Roman collar). But I can also say that those who practiced the faith had a much greater appreciation for it there than anywhere else I have been. Every day they were making a conscious decision to practice their faith knowing what the cost could be.
I remember one time when a young Muslim woman came to the Church asking to convert. When I spoke to the pastor about it, I could see his sense of panic. He explained to me how it would have to be handled very discreetly, else they would come and burn down the Church and kill her as well as whoever baptized her. That is daily life for Christians in most Muslim countries. You hear about the most spectacular stuff in the press, but most people don’t realize the daily pressure on Christians in so many countries, and the sacrifices and risks that they take to practice their faith. I guess those who persecute us must have a better understanding of the power of Christianity than most American do – otherwise, why are they so afraid of allowing it to be freely practiced?

 

[mpwit]

mpwit, I have looked at the chapter in question, which I note is called “The Spoils of War,” and at first glance the verses you cite appear to describe how non-believing enemy combatants are to be dealt with. Allah tells his angels to smite them.

Please note, I am not a scholar of the Qur’an. I only now read that chapter so that I could try to answer your latest question. Therefore I may have interpreted it rather literally.

Tell me, how is your opinion informed? How did you arrive at your interpretation? Have you made a serious attempt to understand Islam? Taken any courses? Talked to any Muslims?

I have seen many testimonies both in person and on internet like you tube in front of live audience.

search you tube for muslim conversion to Christianity

listen to their sincerity

 

[SAVINGRACE]

There are a few hadiths written regarding 811-13 and they state that anyone who leaves the religion of Islam will be put to death.

It is also written in the Sunnah under punishment penalties.

Maybe they mean spiritual death not physical death?

I’m just looking at this from the Catholic viewpoint because thousands of people misinterpret what the CC teaches on certain Doctrines too. A classic example is ‘infallibility’ of the Pope, if I had a dollar for every time a non-Catholic says that we think he doesn’t sin, I’d be a very wealthy woman.