What do you consider the "gay lifestyle" to be?

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Interesting. I am a recovering alcoholic -in fact I just celebrated 25 years of sobriety. Knowing that I have this problem I make a point not to visit bars or hang around people who drink too much. Which begs the question as to why a person who struggles with same-sex attraction would go to homosexual bars and strip shows?
A gay bar is often a place to socialize, contrary to popular belief going to a gay bar doesn’t automatically mean one is going for the hookup. Gay bars often showcase comedians, drag shows, bands, or various theme nights. To be honest I know few people who hookup from bars anymore, most just use the internet.

As for a strip shows… I have never been to one, and I don’t know what drag shows you have been watching, but clothes don’t come off. That would ruin the whole “female impersonation” concept they are going for. In fact most drag queens are wearing more clothes that most biological women. Three pairs of under wear to hold the “tuck” in. 5-7 pairs of panty hose to hold the hip pads in place. A waist cincher. A bra to hold their birdseed or silicone boobies up, a corset over that, then finally the outfit. Add 7 inch heels, two wigs, and a TON of makeup and its all finished.

And is my final point. Comparing alcoholism to homosexuality is like comparing apples to oranges. Lets look at the definitions.
Alcoholism: an addiction to the consumption of alcoholic liquor or the mental illness and compulsive behavior resulting from alcohol dependency
Homosexuality: sexual attraction to people of the same sex
Alcoholism is an addiction or dependence on alcohol.

Homosexuality is attraction to the same sex. One is not forced to act on an attraction, nor is an attraction the same as an addiction or dependency.

If attraction were a sin then we’d all be up the creek without a paddle.
 
Two Links I have to Share… Because I think they capture a lot…

We are just people:
youtube.com/watch?v=tsjOlsG9ZG4

This is what happens when you look at it as a something to be cured, or a form of “slavery”:
kstatecollegian.com/news/student-recounts-painful-conversion-therapy-abuse-1.2114740
I looked at the second.

One does not treat a mental disorder by beating a 14 year-old boy unconscious.

Nor by employing a ham-fisted, apparently untrained ‘therapist’ to tell that 14 year-old he has AIDS and needs to change before the disease kills him.

Doesn’t mean that there are not caring, compassionate people out there helping those with same-sex attraction disorders to redirect their feelings and lead a healthy lifestyle. Doesn’t work for everyone–heck not everyone is willing to acknowledge that same-sex attraction (SSA) is a disorder.

BTW–SSA is not a sin, any more than alcohol dependency is a sin. Acting on one’s sexual impulses, outside of monogamous heterosexual marriage, is the sin.

The sin is mitigated to the degree it is compulsive and not fully within the control of the offender, but is sinful to the degree the individual retains control and culpability. To the degree that SSA is compulsive, it would be slavery–and to that same degree, the sufferer would not be personally involved in mortal sin. (Homosexual acts remain objectively sinful in all cases–but the degree to which it is mortally sinful in individual cases varies).

And SSA is not ‘more sinful’ than masturbation, viewing pornography, sex outside of the bonds of marriage–this ain’t a confessional but I for one have been guilty of those three. I, personally, am not less of a sinner than an active homosexual.

I simply have recognized the gravity of my own failings, repented, and taken positive steps to ammend my life and do differently.

If there is anything which could be labelled the ‘gay agenda’, it is the determination of many to try to compel the Church and her members to accept homosexual behavior as something less than sinful, as something which should be socially acceptable.

I don’t think the Church needs to home in on homosexuality–or on sexual sins generally–as somehow more offensive to God than lying, stealing, oppression of the weak or poor, etcetera.

Where activist homosexuals part company with faithful Christians is that we, the latter, insist that we must continue God’s words after Him in condemning homosexual behavior as ever-and-always sinful.
 
Two Links I have to Share… Because I think they capture a lot…

We are just people:
youtube.com/watch?v=tsjOlsG9ZG4

This is what happens when you look at it as a something to be cured, or a form of “slavery”:
kstatecollegian.com/news/student-recounts-painful-conversion-therapy-abuse-1.2114740
Great links.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach homosexuality as something that is to be “cured”, like how the fundamentalist American Protestants have their “Pray the gay away”. The Church teaches it as something that is to be dealt with and a cross to be carried. Just as I have the cross of being lustfully attracted to many women to carry, so do homosexuals have the cross of being attracted to people of the same sex to carry.

And anyone who treats gays as if they’re a separate species of human is definitely not following the Church. The Catechism denounces this, and Jesus denounced this 2000 years ago when He told us to love our neighbors.
 
Well I’ll start with the fact I’m a gay catholic lives in chastity.

I really don’t see what’s wrong with that. Your living in chastity is a testimony of you bearing your specific cross, and God is happy with you for that. Continue to pray, and I’ll pray for you. Anyone who treats you less than other Catholics should not be considered a true follower of Christ.
 
A gay bar is often a place to socialize, contrary to popular belief going to a gay bar doesn’t automatically mean one is going for the hookup. Gay bars often showcase comedians, drag shows, bands, or various theme nights. To be honest I know few people who hookup from bars anymore, most just use the internet.

As for a strip shows… I have never been to one, and I don’t know what drag shows you have been watching, but clothes don’t come off. That would ruin the whole “female impersonation” concept they are going for. In fact most drag queens are wearing more clothes that most biological women. Three pairs of under wear to hold the “tuck” in. 5-7 pairs of panty hose to hold the hip pads in place. A waist cincher. A bra to hold their birdseed or silicone boobies up, a corset over that, then finally the outfit. Add 7 inch heels, two wigs, and a TON of makeup and its all finished.

And is my final point. Comparing alcoholism to homosexuality is like comparing apples to oranges. Lets look at the definitions.

Alcoholism is an addiction or dependence on alcohol.

Homosexuality is attraction to the same sex. One is not forced to act on an attraction, nor is an attraction the same as an addiction or dependency.

If attraction were a sin then we’d all be up the creek without a paddle.
I would think that going to a homosexual bar is acting on ones same-sex attraction. You have chosen to identify yourself by your sexual attraction and appear to believe you can only socialize with people the same share the same disorder.

Is it proper for a married man to go to a singles bar and flirt with women as long as he doesn’t sleep with them? Is it proper for a Catholic to go to a sexually provocative stage show as long as nobody takes all their clothes off?
 
*However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition. *

Thanks, Challam, for not having an agenda. I’m pretty much in your shoes, except that for me the jury is out on the marriage issue, and I have both relatives and friends who are gay. My experience with them is that–as a discernible group in my circles of friends–they are neater, cleaner, better educated, and without question more creative than the other namable groups in my life. They are certainly more open minded and able to rationally discuss things than, say, those of my friends who are dogmatic in their approach to life and depend more on a faith structure for their thinking patterns than on experience and reasoning. It still baffles me that people abdicate their God given abilitiies and use “believe” and “know” interchangeably, as if they had something to do with each other. My sampling may be skewed in that I’m self educated and above average, as far as I can tell from usual criteria, in several ways.

So while I don’t participate in a gay lifestyle, whatever that might be, as there are sociologically different sub-groups of that sub culture, I do have a limited contact with some gay individuals whose company I enjoy. They are also folks who have added significantly to the quality of my life in terms of everything from socializing, creative endeavors, and definitely in spirituality. That last is because there are some whom I know that range from a candidate for the Jesuit priesthood who decided at the last moment to not answer that calling, to a rather accomplished and well known metaphysician.

Having said all that, I also look at the statement you quote above and ask how it can be said that homosexuality is “objectively disordered” while it’s “psychological genesis is largely unexplained?” So there is a calling on the part of the Church to have compassion for a group of people it considers disordered without knowing why they say so on objective grounds. I say that because while some people accept the Bible and popular interpretations from it regarding homosexuality, there is argument from other disciplines than the multitudinously divergent religious assertions that, as an orientation, it is only part of a normal scale of behaviors which at some point blends into what average folks think of as normal or abnormal in other ways. Homosexuality is by no means the only identifiable sexual behavior that might have a smaller than average group of practitioners. Another such group might be those who are celibate, or allegedly so, and we have the commensurate divergences in that group as well. In some cases we might even look at married folks who by most social standards have some unusual sexual paradigms, even Catholic couples.

So if we are considering the uncharitable remarks on here about “homosexual lifestyle” I’m guessing, being new on here save for some brief scans, and having experienced criticisms of gays in other venues, that there are at least two sources for the uncompassionate behavior you reference. The first is the confusion many have with homosexuality and other things, especially pedophilia. The other source is far more common, and I’m not so sure how to name that, except for it has to do with the nature of intimate relations, especially between gay men and not so much gay women. I think that for most heterosexuals that in particular freaks them out. Sodomy is literally a dirty word for these folks.

Now I am quite aware of the possible medical consequences of the intimate homosexual relations. The news has much of that and the various courses on health I’ve taken are quite explicit about a long litany of those. But they are also explicit about a much longer litany of things the ordinary person of any orientation is prone to, all of them having to do with sanitation. I will bring to your attention here the state of many bathrooms and kitchens regardless of the appearance of cleanliness. Let’s put it this way: if you flush with the lid up your tooth brush has fecal matter on it. Sponges especially and towels have astounding numbers of things that ought make anyone reverently grateful for having an immune system. And nearly everything in public has been touched by some guy who didn’t wash his hands after peeing. Sorry, that’s just how it is.

So mostly what we are dealing with here is a form of xenophobia. It is akin to racial or cultural prejudice, or food prejudice, or taste in music and it’s ability to change body chemistry. So, if you don’t like it, don’t do it. It’s like your TV. You can change the channel. But if you go out and campaign against it, gar-on-teeed you are supporting what you claim you are against. It is like the RC pastor in CT* who sued the nude bar across the street because its patrons were parking on church property. Well, that was in the news even in Arizona and California. Business at the nude bar quadrupled. I almost suggested to the bar owner to pay a tithe to the pastor as a gratitude for the huge increase in business. Maybe you all can do the gays the same favor by being against them so they will have a reason to unite and get laws passed you don’t like.

*Saint Matthew Church, 216 Scribner Ave, Norwalk, CT, circa 1994. I think it was in the Norwalk Citizen.
 
I would think that going to a homosexual bar is acting on ones same-sex attraction. You have chosen to identify yourself by your sexual attraction and appear to believe you can only socialize with people the same share the same disorder.
Is it proper for a married man to go to a singles bar and flirt with women as long as he doesn’t sleep with them? Is it proper for a Catholic to go to a sexually provocative stage show as long as nobody takes all their clothes off?
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on these points. I have numerous people I socialize with both gay and straights alike. In fact it was my straight fraternity brothers who led me to the Church, and the people I hang out with the most and am surrounded my 90 percent of the time are straight. I ask in grateful charity that you not make vast assumptions about my life when your only knowledge of me is via 3 posts on a specific topic on an internet forum, as I would extend the same kindness to you.

As to bars. If i were there to flirt maybe, but it is possible to maintain a platonic friendship with another gay person, nor does I feel the need to sleep with every guy I see. Stereotypes are powerful carriers of hate and damnation and we must be careful to fight them every where we are. Also, one may go to a gay bar with ones friends just like any married man may go with his friends to a bar where there might be single women. (And as to a singles bar, never seen one. Where I came from there were just bars. Some were gay and some were straight, but people when to them all).

As for a sexually charged stage shows. I guess it must be wrong to watch broadway shows or a concert by a contemporary secular artist, as that exact;y what a female impersonator is trying to accomplish. Lip-syncing and preforming to an artists song as if she were that artist.

Ok, I must go get dressed for mass so I can be there in time. Blessing to all on this beautiful fall day that the Lord hath made!
 
Ireka2 – Thank you for one of the most cogent statements I’ve ever read on homosexuality – you’ve added a great deal of reason and objectivity to this discussion and made some interesting, important points.

Thanks, KJN, for your calm and kind responses, and thanks to (almost) everyone else for keeping this emotionally charged subject civil and charitable.

I find it interesting, to say the least, that we’ve only heard from one or two whose postings on this very subject (homosexuality, particularly the “gay lifestyle”) on various other threads have been what I’ve considered to be very biased, discriminatory and objectionable.

I wonder why that is…
 
The Obama administration itself has not use the term Gay Agenda, that was simply the term the writer of the article chose. The Church also has never used it as it is a decidedly American term, true some officials in the US church have made use of it, but it is pretty easy for a person to get caught up in rhetoric without thinking about its sensibilities. Besides I am sure I could site many things individual Bishops have done that would upset most people on this forum. As I said before there really isn’t much to debate, any terminology that places people under a metaphoric umbrella that they don’t belong too simply isn’t responsible or charitable. When a person says
“Well look here at what the Gay Agenda is trying to do to America” …
So, we debate the “gay agenda” as related to the OP topic on “gay lifestyle.”

Even if it is true that the Obama administration has not used the term “gay agenda” directly (I am not sure about this without doing an exhaustive research), and only some Church officials or bishops have used said term, decisions and positions have been made in support of and against a number of issues or list of “rights” that gays wish to have, ergo, a gay agenda, proving that “gay agenda” is not just a concept out there. Homosexual activists are lobbying for a number of things: normalization of homosexual behavior, acceptance by society that homosexuality = heterosexuality, institution of gay marriage, no impediment to adoption of children by gay couples, repeal of DADT, etc. Various LGBT groups are not denying, in fact are demanding that these are what they want from government and society. Nothing would please them more than laws changed or enacted and gay-leaning judges appointed, to help move their objectives along. What term or phrase should be used for practical purposes? “The Gay Outline/Plan” or “The List of Things/ Rights That Gays Want to Have”?

Agenda means a list, outline or plan. The term “gay agenda” might have started after publication in 1990 of the book After the Ball: How America Can Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays written by Marshall Kirk. With the rise of the gay movement, gay organizations mushroomed across the country, morphing to more powerful, more efficient entities tackling societal issues with not insignificant consequences. Activist homosexuals began to target areas, perhaps not systematically at first, where they want to see change, in government, business and industry, public education, and the military.

If Obama or his administration has avoided using “gay agenda” as a term, it is likely because said term is easily associated with radicals or militants. While he certainly would want the gay bloc continually supporting him through 2012 (he prides himself as the President who has made the most number of appointments of homosexual professionals to key positions in government), he is also not sure if straight America would go for him completely supporting a segment of population that wants to institute social engineering projects that are just too radical for majority voters, such as gay marriage.

[con’t]

. . . . .
 
[con’t]

As to your other point, on the metaphoric umbrella, I agree that not all may identify with issues put forth by the noisy or assertive homosexual activists. But it is also true that not every homosexual may join the parade, so to speak, but are supportive of the gay agenda. Yes, I am using the word, not in rhetorical fashion, and not out of a lack of charity or responsibility. We will have to disagree on the proper / improper use of the term “gay agenda”.

I believe in traditional marriage and family, and am therefore against gay marriage, certainly against gay adoption, and take strong exception that young kids in school are being taught that it is normal for little Heather to have two mommies or Jay to have two daddies as parents at home. This is promotion of or conditioning for homosexuality, in my opinion. I don’t understand why a gay couple would enroll their child in Catholic school and sue if the child is not accepted or is not allowed to stay because of a time-held value and teaching of the CC that the homosexual act is a sin, and that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. Patrick, since you are a self-identified Catholic on your profile, I hope you can understand my stand. As for the DADT repeal controversy, I can tell you I support the position of Archbishop for the Military, Archbishop Tim Broglio. No, you need not say that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops, but we are talking about consistency with Church teaching, not the abuses of individual bishops and priests.

As a firsthand account, I can tell you that during the time my gay brother was with his partner, they were considering checking to adopt a baby boy or child, much to my horror and to the rest of our family. It just so happened that my brother and his partner broke up before they could actively pursue the adoption. Also, when Prop 8 was put on the ballot in 2008 in California, my brother and his partner were against the initiative, as were all of their gay couple friends, although the rest of us straights in the family voted in favor of the gay marriage ban.

In light of my direct experience, I can say that a good number of homosexuals support gay activism and issues being pushed under the gay agenda.

Further, it is no secret that homosexuals in positions of influence and wealth put in place organizations and mechanisms to neutralize if not silence opposition to gay marriage, not just from the CC, but also LDS and other Christian groups. Of interest, they don’t seem to go after Muslim organizations which have strong views against homosexuality!

In many places where there are big concentrations of homosexual activists, such as in California, where Hollywood and entertainment/television industries are, media and private industries have lined up to have a political edge and to fight Christian groups for their stance against gay marriage. You can look up what powerful and wealthy homosexuals like David Bohnett and his friends have undertaken, examples below:
The Gay Mafia That’s Redefining Liberal Politics
Wealthy homosexual activist advises ‘active measures’ against religious opponents

You might say that the matters I brought up above are all covered under the gay agenda. Contrary to what you may believe, it is not my intent to offend sensibilities of gays and their supporters in this forum with the use of the term. Just explaining my point of view here.
. . . . .
 
I suggest you read posting #13 in this thread for a more complete explanation. Stating that “homosexuality is a form of slavery to sin” is grossly unjust and incorrect in light of the Church’s statements and the love that Jesus bade us show one another.
Please, you don’t even understand what Holy Orders is or the magisterium… Don’t lecture others on Church statements which I have doubt you have even read or studied. The Church clearly states that homosexual acts are an intrinsic evil, and the Pope recently stated that gay marriage is “insidious” , “dangerous”, and a threat to society and creation as a whole. He said that same-sex marriage and abortion were among the “most insidious and dangerous challenges that today confront the common good”

Did you read any of the CCC which said “under no circumstances can they be accepted”

love isn’t the justification of sin. That is the least loving thing you can do.

As we all know that sin is what truly makes us slaves and shackles us. Homosexuality is considered a trial. Homosexual acts are sinful and bond someone even more into the shackles of sin.
I find it interesting, to say the least, that we’ve only heard from one or two whose postings on this very subject (homosexuality, particularly the “gay lifestyle”) on various other threads have been what I’ve considered to be very biased, discriminatory and objectionable.
I wonder why that is…
Oh look, lol. Are you trying the bait tactic now??

And do you consider your statements about the Church being unchristian, the Church not representing the example of Christ, and the magestarium being bastardized a little biased and discriminatory? Or is this your selective reading that I am experiencing here??

I find it interesting that on nearly every major Church moral doctrine. You seem to disagree…

Why is it that you need to keep saying you don’t have an agenda. You seem to be nervous about something…
 
I don’t believe in a “gay” lifestyle. If someone wants to dress up and be flamboyant, go ahead. I think it’s odd, but I don’t see anything morally wrong with it.

I simply see it wrong to have homosexual sex. It’s also wrong for a gay person to marry someone of the opposite sex if they cannot truly love them (some gays can, so this doesn’t apply to all of them). I also see it as morally wrong for gays to marry each other in the strictest sense of the word (i.e. the Sacrament of Marriage), but I do not oppose civil marriages or civil unions for gays.

If one is a gay Catholic, he/she is expected not to deny this identity, but rather to deal with it with the help of the Church and its members. Complete celibacy is only required if a gay person has absolutely no attraction to the opposite sex and can’t marry a person of the opposite sex with feelings of romantic love, and this is only because of the various problems this can (and, as proven by various cases, will) cause if there is no true love there.
Gays should be loved and treated no differently than straight people. They should have help coping with their cross, but they should never be discriminated against or seen as any less or any more than heterosexuals.

Gay relationships? I’m not too sure about that one. I don’t see it as a sin in and of itself, but it is certainly a “near occasion of sin” and should be avoided.
Your post is confusing in the parts I bolded. How do you say you see homosexual sex as wrong, and yet you do not oppose civil marriages or unions for gays? Are these not contradictory views? Don’t gay couples seek civil marriage/union, not just to have rights to health and financial benefits, hospital visitation, etc., but also to continue having homosexual sex?

As for gay relationships, they are taken to mean as homosexual, not platonic, relations. So how are they not sinful in this regard and just near occasions of sin to be avoided?

Finally, disagreeing with sacramental marriages but agreeing with civil unions for gays does not line up with church position. As Bishop Tobin of the diocese of Providence, RI, said, homosexual activity is unnatural and gravely immoral. It’s offensive to Almighty God. It can never be condoned, under any circumstances. Gay marriage, or civil unions, would mean that the state is in the business of ratifying, approving such immoral activity. I thought to mention this in light of your self-indicated RCIA status.

Peace.

. . . . .
 
PeterKeys:

You write above: “The Church clearly states that homosexual acts are an intrinsic evil”

Ahhh, but in your original posting you did not say “homosexual acts.” You said “homosexuality” – which means the state of being a homosexual. That was and is my objection to your statement.

This is your quote, in case you’ve forgotten:
"homosexuality is a form of slavery to sin. It is a cross for some people to bear. "

That sentence does not delineate that the gay person is expressing his/her sexuality or remaining abstinent – it states clearly that the state of being homosexual is … etc. etc.

Once again, you are accusing me of “baiting” this Forum and, once again, you’ve posted personal attacks. (Aren’t these against Forum rules? Don’t “good Catholics” always follow all the rules? Just wondering…)

As I stated in my OP, I do not have an agenda here.

I am looking for insight into the thinking of the people on CAF who abhor the “gay lifestyle” but profess to regard the homosexual person as the Church tells us to, such as outlined in the statement in posting #13.

In starting this thread I was simply looking for these posters’ clear definition of the term “gay lifestyle” since it leads to so many uncharitable, discriminatory, disobedient (to the Church) and just plain mean statements. For instance, in a thread last month while discussing “Dancing With The Stars,” a poster said he/she never watched one couple because both the star and the professional are gay. That confused me, since the star is female and the professional male, and I’m not sure how actively expressing their homosexuality on the dance floor might happen with that combination.

I do find it very interesting that these same people have not replied to this thread, but I think we’ve gotten excellent responses with very clear, rational exposition. Possibly those people who have been posting the offensive material on other threads have seen that they are out of step with what the Church has directed. One can only hope.

Dearest PeterKeys, For over a week now, I’ve been doing something that will no doubt make you even angrier than you appear to be in all your postings. I’ve been praying for you, and I will continue to pray for you. Just think about that – you have an ignorant, unteachable, ranting, heretical, dissident, progressive, liberal feminista actually praying for you, at daily mass, every day of the week (except Saturday, which is not offered here). These are sincere prayers with no malice and no agenda. God bless you.
 
Your post is confusing in the parts I bolded. How do you say you see homosexual sex as wrong, and yet you do not oppose civil marriages or unions for gays? Are these not contradictory views? Don’t gay couples seek civil marriage/union, not just to have rights to health and financial benefits, hospital visitation, etc., but also to continue having homosexual sex?
I don’t believe in making it illegal to sin. I believe in giving people the choice, so long as that choice doesn’t harm another’s life. This is why I don’t oppose civil unions but I do oppose abortion.

It’s wrong to worship false gods. That doesn’t mean every religion besides Christianity, Judaism, and Islam should be illegal.
As for gay relationships, they are taken to mean as homosexual, not platonic, relations. So how are they not sinful in this regard and just near occasions of sin to be avoided?
I said I’m not too sure about them. There are many instances where people date 100% chastely. Is that wrong? But if one develops lust and can’t control his/herself, then that “near occasion of sin” should be avoided. That’s where my self-contradiction comes in, and that’s why I’m not too sure about a gay relationship being immoral in and of itself. The things that may come along with it (such as sex) is immoral, but there can be a relationship without sex.
Finally, disagreeing with sacramental marriages but agreeing with civil unions for gays does not line up with church position. As Bishop Tobin of the diocese of Providence, RI, said, homosexual activity is unnatural and gravely immoral. It’s offensive to Almighty God. It can never be condoned, under any circumstances. Gay marriage, or civil unions, would mean that the state is in the business of ratifying, approving such immoral activity. I thought to mention this in light of your self-indicated RCIA status.
Why is it always assumed that since I’m in RCIA, I don’t know anything about the Church? I studied the Church and its teachings beforehand. That assumption’s always bothered me, but anyway…

Catholic Bishops in England agree with my stance. lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/sep/10092404.html

Specifically, to quote the Archbishop:

“We did not oppose gay civil partnerships…we persistently said these are not the same as marriage”

Of course, the Vatican would disagree with the Bishops of England, but as I read the Vatican’s condemnation of gay civil unions, it seems like the Vatican seems to see “homosexual unions” as the same thing as marriage. I don’t know how it is in other countries, but in the United States, a civil union is NOT a marriage and is never seen as one. In the United States, it is constantly stressed as not being the same as marriage, and that’s why many gay couples protest civil unions and instead want full out marriage.

A civil union is simply a legally recognized partnership where the two partners are…
  • Not married
  • Are given rights similar to a married couple
So basically, a civil union is not a marriage, but it would give a couple (usually a gay couple) the right to have joint bank accounts, tax breaks, Social Security benefits, and family health insurance. This, in my opinion, helps us “avoid any unjust discrimination” against them while at the same time not recognizing gay marriage because the very definition of marriage is the Sacrament whereby a man and a woman are joined together.

The Vatican portrays civil unions as being identical with marriage. It sees the difference between civil unions and marriage as calling an apple an orange. It’s still an apple. But in the United States, the difference is apparent and civil unions are not marriages.

Also, by legalizing civil unions, no one is condoning anything. The legalization of something is simply saying “If you want to, you can”. It’s not recommending it, and it’s not opposing it.

And this isn’t an issue of whether or not Catholicism is a truth or a lie. The Church can be wrong on this matter and still be infallible, as this isn’t an issue of faith, doctrines, and morals but rather an issue of laws and whether we should make it illegal for others to sin. As I said before, I don’t believe in making sin illegal. I wouldn’t recommend it, but I wouldn’t give someone jail time for sinning unless the sin harms another’s life (such as murder/abortion, stealing, etc.)
 
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MarianD:
I would think that same sex couples spending time together who are chaste and do not behave in a romantic way toward each other, are in a friendship, not in a dating or gay relationship. Just as a rhetorical question, how did terms and language get so contorted?

I did not say you do not or did not know anything about Church teachings when I brought up your RCIA status. No offense was meant. Basing on what you said, I am not the first one who brought up your RCIA as a reaction to your declarations, such as your agreement on civil unions, for example. Even if you have explained your view(s) on your posts on other threads, it is understandable that posters are unable to read all threads and keep tabs.

Undoubtedly, there is ongoing debate if civil unions can be regarded as offering sufficient equality to gays and there is disagreement as to the definition of “marriage”.

As you said, American bishops oppose gay civil unions AND gay marriage. It’s because both legal relations are between two people of the same sex, which gives standing to homosexual relationship that is against Church teaching. The Church’s opposition to civil unions is understandable because how many people who enter same sex civil unions plan to be celibate during the union, and how many will not go forward with child adoption or IVF to have children. As you know, the Church regard homosexual acts and mentioned methods of family creation as not consistent with its teachings.

Actually, I am puzzled that homosexual couples are insisting on gay marriage laws in addition to civil unions already in place under which they enjoy all practical rights that heterosexual married people enjoy. Gay marriages are therefore unnecessary and would just be superfluous. One can therefore conclude that what gay couples wish is to force societal approval of the homosexual relationship.

Lastly, sodomy laws have been struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court already, so any “sin” associated with the homosexual act is not considered illegal. Hence, why should an act that is not picking somebody’s pocket or breaking someone’s leg be illegal? I don’t think there is any debate on making such “sins” illegal or punishable by jail time. It is clear that the Church speaks of spiritual harm that visits those who engage in homosexual sex or undergo / promote same sex marriage; it does not speak of civil or criminal punishment at all.

Peace.

. . . . . .
 
In starting this thread I was simply looking for these posters’ clear definition of the term “gay lifestyle” since it leads to so many uncharitable, discriminatory, disobedient (to the Church) and just plain mean statements. For instance, in a thread last month while discussing “Dancing With The Stars,” a poster said he/she never watched one couple because both the star and the professional are gay. That confused me, since the star is female and the professional male, and I’m not sure how actively expressing their homosexuality on the dance floor might happen with that combination.
can the hypocrisy be any more dripping in this post when you compare it to your other posts. Here you are lecturing others on whether they are disobedient to the Church on a certain teaching, while at the same time IN OTHER POSTS saying the Church and the magisterium do not follow the teachings of Christ, that the clergy are bastardized, that the magestarium are never infallible, the Holy Orders is wrong and unjust, that the Church is a dictatorship and an unjust monarchy, that laymen are just drones who “ohh” and “awe” over the clergy, claim the clergy and the pope are just power hungry men, and then on top of it support Joan Chissiter and her minions and try to defend her teachings and her attacks on Holy Orders and the Pope.

And, you, come here to talk to us about following Church teaching and expect us to take you seriously after your virulent hateful attacks on the catholic faith and the Church?? This proves to me even more you are a troll.

P.S. - I am open to your prayers, as all prayer is good. However prayer must be directed towards the obvious issues of hypocrisy and your wrath towards the faith and the Church.
This is your quote, in case you’ve forgotten:
"homosexuality is a form of slavery to sin. It is a cross for some people to bear. "
That sentence does not delineate that the gay person is expressing his/her sexuality or remaining abstinent – it states clearly that the state of being homosexual is … etc. etc.
lol, Did I say anything about abstinence? I was talking in a general term about people who are living the homosexual lifestyle… The Church proscribes abstinence for people with homosexual urges. But for a homosexual living the lifestyle, he is under the shackles of sin. Secondly the Church considers the inclination itself to be objectively disordered.

A person who has homosexual urges who is celibate is not really a “homosexual”. He is a celibate. His urges don’t define who he is. A person who calls himself a homosexual is letting his sexual acts define who he is.

I also suggest you read scripture. Preferable Romans Chapter 1.

Those opposed to homosexual behavior are often charged with “homophobia”, or discrimination, that they hold the position they do because they are “afraid” of homosexuals. Sometimes the charge is even made that these same people are perhaps homosexuals themselves and are overcompensating to hide this fact, even from themselves, by condemning other homosexuals.

Both of these arguments attempt to stop rational discussion of an issue by shifting the focus to one of the participants. In doing so, they dismiss another person’s arguments based on some real or supposed attribute of the person. In this case, the supposed attribute is a fear of homosexuals.

Like similar attempts to avoid rational discussion of an issue, the homophobia argument completely misses the point. Even if a person were afraid of homosexuals, that would not diminish his arguments against their behavior. The fact that a person is afraid of handguns would not nullify arguments against handguns, nor would the fact that a person might be afraid of handgun control diminish arguments against handgun control.

Furthermore, the homophobia charge rings false. The vast majority of those who oppose homosexual behavior are in no way “afraid” of homosexuals. A disagreement is not the same as a fear. One can disagree with something without fearing it, and the attempt to shut down rational discussion by crying “homophobe!” falls flat. It is an attempt to divert attention from the arguments against one’s position by focusing attention on the one who made the arguments, while trying to claim the moral high ground against him.
 
homosexuality is not a lifestyle. it is a form of slavery. if anything it is the shackling of ones lifestyle, since sin shackles us as slaves. It is a consequence of sin and temptation. Sin is never to be viewed as a lifestyle. But rather a trap.

A true lifestyle gives certain freedoms to a person. It does not shackle them more into sin. homosexuality is a form of slavery to sin. It is a cross for some people to bear.
That was your original quote that DID NOT DIFFERENTIATE between the homosexual person and being sexually active with gay sex.

My OP specified homosexual people living in celibacy as the Church has asked.

Rant all you want, PeterKeys – you distort and misinterpret my postings all the time, so it’s not unexpected that you also distort and re-interpret yours.
 
lol, Did I say anything about abstinence? I was talking in a general term about people who are living the homosexual lifestyle… The Church proscribes abstinence for people with homosexual urges. But for a homosexual living the lifestyle, he is under the shackles of sin. Secondly the Church considers the inclination itself to be objectively disordered.

A person who has homosexual urges who is celibate is not really a “homosexual”. He is a celibate. His urges don’t define who he is. A person who calls himself a homosexual is letting his sexual acts define who he is.

.
Go back and read Post #13 which details the Church teaching. Your second paragraph is ludicrous and illogical in light of that teaching and common sense.
 
can the hypocrisy be any more dripping in this post when you compare it to your other posts. Here you are lecturing others on whether they are disobedient to the Church on a certain teaching, while at the same time IN OTHER POSTS saying the Church and the magisterium do not follow the teachings of Christ, that the clergy are bastardized, that the magestarium are never infallible, the Holy Orders is wrong and unjust, that the Church is a dictatorship and an unjust monarchy, that laymen are just drones who “ohh” and “awe” over the clergy, claim the clergy and the pope are just power hungry men, and then on top of it support Joan Chissiter and her minions and try to defend her teachings and her attacks on Holy Orders and the Pope.

And, you, come here to talk to us about following Church teaching and expect us to take you seriously after your virulent hateful attacks on the catholic faith and the Church?? This proves to me even more you are a troll.

P.S. - I am open to your prayers, as all prayer is good. However prayer must be directed towards the obvious issues of hypocrisy and your wrath towards the faith and the Church.

lol, Did I say anything about abstinence? I was talking in a general term about people who are living the homosexual lifestyle… The Church proscribes abstinence for people with homosexual urges. But for a homosexual living the lifestyle, he is under the shackles of sin. Secondly the Church considers the inclination itself to be objectively disordered.

A person who has homosexual urges who is celibate is not really a “homosexual”. He is a celibate. His urges don’t define who he is. A person who calls himself a homosexual is letting his sexual acts define who he is.

I also suggest you read scripture. Preferable Romans Chapter 1.

Those opposed to homosexual behavior are often charged with “homophobia”, or discrimination, that they hold the position they do because they are “afraid” of homosexuals. Sometimes the charge is even made that these same people are perhaps homosexuals themselves and are overcompensating to hide this fact, even from themselves, by condemning other homosexuals.

Both of these arguments attempt to stop rational discussion of an issue by shifting the focus to one of the participants. In doing so, they dismiss another person’s arguments based on some real or supposed attribute of the person. In this case, the supposed attribute is a fear of homosexuals.

Like similar attempts to avoid rational discussion of an issue, the homophobia argument completely misses the point. Even if a person were afraid of homosexuals, that would not diminish his arguments against their behavior. The fact that a person is afraid of handguns would not nullify arguments against handguns, nor would the fact that a person might be afraid of handgun control diminish arguments against handgun control.

Furthermore, the homophobia charge rings false. The vast majority of those who oppose homosexual behavior are in no way “afraid” of homosexuals. A disagreement is not the same as a fear. One can disagree with something without fearing it, and the attempt to shut down rational discussion by crying “homophobe!” falls flat. It is an attempt to divert attention from the arguments against one’s position by focusing attention on the one who made the arguments, while trying to claim the moral high ground against him.
I’ve asked you at least three times to please stop with the personal attacks, yet you persist. You even bring material from another controversial thread to this one. I have reported this post to the moderators.
 
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