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Tomdstone
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Call no man Father
Only the Father knows the day or hour - not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
Women are to keep silent in Church and wear headcovering.
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Only the Father knows the day or hour - not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
Women are to keep silent in Church and wear headcovering.
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Waynec
Guest
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Tomdstone
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Waynec
Guest
Waynec;13049549:
Well, I am Catholic and that IS my point of view. Between Tradition, Scripture and the Magisterium I think we got it right. I find it amazing which verses that Protestants decided to take literally and the literal ones they decide are symbolic. Go figure. Thank God that Catholics have a final teaching authority unlike the rest of Christianity. So we always get it right
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jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by jlhargus I have yet to see a scripture that would make me feel guilty or that refuted a Catholic teaching there is not such scripture.
[Acts22:1 Men, brethren, and **fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. 2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) 3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.]
Paul calls Jews from whom the law was received fathers.
[1Thes2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, **as a father doth his children,]
Paul refers to himself as a father.
[Titus1:44 To **Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.]
Again Paul refers to himself as Titus’ father. Otherwise how could Titus be called his own son.
[1Cor4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but **as my beloved sons I warn you. 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.]
Just as we call our pastors father. Paul refers to the Corinthians as his spiritual sons begotten through the gospel. In the following Christ himself refers to the devil as a father.
[Jn8:44 Ye are of your **father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.]
Is Christ or Paul contradicting scripture, or is it you, taking an isolate verse without regard to the whole of scripture, coming to an incorrect understanding of scripture?
I notice you have listed nothing for religion. That can mean anything it doesn’t tell me anything about you. It could mean you are a Christian but don’t like organized religion. You could be atheist, agnostic, Moslem, JW or any other non-Christian faith.
If you are a Christian then what do you call your faith group. Don’t just say Christian, Evangelical or Protestant as that could be one of thousands of groups. I still wouldn’t know what you actually believe or don’t believe. It would be good to understand from where you are coming instead of having to guess. Some don’t list their faith group because they can’t really defend it’s teachings.
Do you call the man, by whom your mother conceived you, father? Did you call those who taught you in school teacher. If taken literally, “No one can be called father but God”. Then how could human beings relate to God as father? Having no example of father of which one could relate. The word father would Just simply be another word for God.
[Acts22:1 Men, brethren, and **fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. 2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) 3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.]
Paul calls Jews from whom the law was received fathers.
[1Thes2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, **as a father doth his children,]
Paul refers to himself as a father.
[Titus1:44 To **Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.]
Again Paul refers to himself as Titus’ father. Otherwise how could Titus be called his own son.
[1Cor4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but **as my beloved sons I warn you. 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.]
Just as we call our pastors father. Paul refers to the Corinthians as his spiritual sons begotten through the gospel. In the following Christ himself refers to the devil as a father.
[Jn8:44 Ye are of your **father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.]
Is Christ or Paul contradicting scripture, or is it you, taking an isolate verse without regard to the whole of scripture, coming to an incorrect understanding of scripture?
To answer the above, as I have no understanding of what you mean, by posting the above two statements. You need to clarify how the above two comments should make a Catholic feel guilty or how they refute Catholic teaching.
I notice you have listed nothing for religion. That can mean anything it doesn’t tell me anything about you. It could mean you are a Christian but don’t like organized religion. You could be atheist, agnostic, Moslem, JW or any other non-Christian faith.
If you are a Christian then what do you call your faith group. Don’t just say Christian, Evangelical or Protestant as that could be one of thousands of groups. I still wouldn’t know what you actually believe or don’t believe. It would be good to understand from where you are coming instead of having to guess. Some don’t list their faith group because they can’t really defend it’s teachings.
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Tomdstone
Guest
, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. 2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) 3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.]
Paul calls Jews from whom the law was received fathers.
[1Thes2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, **as a father doth his children,]
Paul refers to himself as a father.
[Titus1:44 To **Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.]
Again Paul refers to himself as Titus’ father. Otherwise how could Titus be called his own son.
[1Cor4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but **as my beloved sons I warn you. 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.]
Just as we call our pastors father. Paul refers to the Corinthians as his spiritual sons begotten through the gospel. In the following Christ himself refers to the devil as a father.
[Jn8:44 Ye are of your **father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.] .
Catholics do not agree with the Scripture command to Call no man father. I think that is pretty clear from the discussion given here.
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Tomdstone
Guest
Catholics believe that God knows everything and that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. But according to Scripture the Son and the Holy Spirit do not know the day or the hour, only the Father: "“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Matthew 24:36
Mark 13:32
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
In Catholicism the Almighty enjoys a life so much greater than human beings that God’s life far transcends anything we experience on earth.
For instance, human beings are single entities within themselves. This can be altered through the marriage arrangement between husband and wife. When such a marriage occurs the husband and wife enter a bond in which they become two persons in “one flesh.” (Genesis 1.24) As Scripture puts it:
For “the two,” says he, “will be one flesh.”–1 Corinthians 1.16b.
And again we read:
‘And the two will be one flesh,’ so that they are no longer two, but one flesh.–Mark 10.8.
There are two separate people in this “one flesh,” a husband and a wife. Both are humans, no less or greater than the other, but they are not the same persons nor have the same roles in the “one flesh.”
To illustrate: “A husband is head of his wife just as the Christ is head of the congregation,” says Ephesians 5.23. Does this make men superior humans to women? No, of course not. “Husbands should love their wives as their own bodies,” the Bible tells us. “A man who loves his wife loves himself.” (Ephesians 5.28) The assigned roles of marriage do not make one party inferior and the other superior. “Woman isn’t independent from man, and man isn’t independent from woman in the Lord. As woman came from man so also man comes from woman.”—1 Corinthians 11.11-12.
Husbands and wives can have knowledge of things independently and still remain part of the same “one body,” can’t they? Why yes. The Bible even demonstrates this when it says a wife may come to her husband with questions that she does not know the answer to. (1 Corinthians 14.35a) Though the husband may know something that the wife does not, this doesn’t break the “one flesh” unity they share. “They are no longer two, but one flesh,” and this changes not regardless of different roles, whether one takes the lead and one is submissive, or one is privy to information the other is not.
The same goes for the Catholic understanding of God as a Trinity. Superior to humans, God is not limited to existence as a single entity. God is even greater than the “one flesh” bond of husband and wife. God is a Trinity, for the Bible teaches that “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” share the very same name. (Matthew 28.19) Jesus even has all the authority that God in heaven has.—Matthew 28.18.
Catholics don’t teach that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each the same person. On the contrary, like husband and wife are two separate persons who make up “one flesh,” Catholics believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons who make up “one God.” The “one God” is not dissolved because one make take the lead and another follow. Just as when a wife or husband may have knowledge of something the other does not, persons in the Trinity can do the same as well without dissolving the unity of being “one God.”
This is how the Father can have knowledge of something that the Son does not. Like a wife who faithfully desires to be subject to her husband and therefore avoids getting involved in certain matters (such as overhearing information that a Witness elder may learn as part of his duty in leading the congregation), the Son obviously does this as well. (Compare 1 Corinthians 11.3) Sometimes the Father assigns a duty to the Son, just like a husband will for his wife, a duty the Father will not be involved with much as the husband will skip as well. (John 5.22) This never breaks either unity of the “one flesh” or the “one God.” Each possessing various knowledge and duties actually helps in the unity shared in both “one flesh” as it does in the “one God” of the Trinity.
IN REVIEW…
Can you answer, Tomdstone?
According to the Bible, do husband and wife make up “two fleshes” or “one flesh”?
If a husband has knowledge of something the wife does not, does this change their status of unity?
Do Catholics believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same persons or that God is made up of three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit much like husband and wife make up “one flesh”? Which is it and why is it important to know the difference?
How can the Son have knowledge of something the Father does not and still remain “God”?
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
The text of Matthew 23.8-9 is an example of hyperbole that can be easily demonstrated.
In verse 8 Jesus states we should call no one “teacher.” Does you religion believe children should not call their instructors “teacher”? Do members of your faith proceed carefully never to call these school instructors “teacher”? Or do they say things like, “My child got a new teacher today at school”?
If someone asks you the name of your father, do you offer them only God’s name and refuse to acknowledge that your male parent can be called “father”? Or have you ever answered questions about your earthly father just like everyone else does?
“How is your father’s health today, Tom?”
“He’s fine. Thanks for asking.”
Or do you tell your dad things like “you are not my father!” because of this Scripture text?
You are likely just like Catholics who refer to their dads as “father” and school instructors as “teacher.” Jesus was speaking figuratively and telling us that he was a greater Teacher than anyone else with that title, and that God’s fatherhood far exceeds that of others. If Jesus meant to be literal than the words “teacher” and “father” would disappear from our vocabulary. And if that happened eventually no one would understand what the words “father” and “teacher” in these texts mean rendering the verse meaningless.
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ChosenOne7
Guest
You should read the whole chapter… You will notice Jesus was speaking about the scribes and the pharisees who were giving themselves titles and prominence he was warning people not to be like them. Matthew 23:6,7 - “They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men”
Then in verse 8 he basically tells his diciples and the crowd “But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers”…Applying “father” to men as a formalistic or religious title was forbidden by Jesus. That whole chapter 23 of Matthew Jesus is speaking about the scribes and pharisees… They were more worried about titles such as rabbi or teacher an father Jesus says they must be humble everyone is brothers, no one is higher than the next that’s why he says in verse 11 an 12 “But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
So you guys are talking about school teachers and natural human father’s… Jesus here speaks of religious leaders
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ChosenOne7
Guest
What no one can deny is that there is no scripture which shows that Christmas was celebrated by anyone or that it was a custom like it is today, today it is important the whole world basically comes to a stand still on Christmas… Even if it was one day or over a period of 12 days or even if it wasn’t for the birth of Jesus, no where in the Bible does it show that anybody commemorated anything for Jesus accept his death. Then the question comes up if the angels praised his birth why can’t we… But think about this… Was it to the little baby Jesus? Or do we see the glory and praise being given to God in the highest? This is not to say that Jesus becoming flesh was not a great thing, but it is not by His birth that we are saved, neither are we told by God to celebrate it. Does the Scriptural record witness that annually, at this day of Jesus’ birth (whichever day it truly was), the heavenly host would once again offer up praise and glory to God in the highest in honor of Jesus’ birth? I doubt that it does say that anywhere in the Bible.
Let us take a look at two birthdays shown to be celebrated in the bible. One is found in Mark’s Gospel account:
Mark 6:21 “And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;”
And another is in Genesis:
Genesis 40:20 “And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh’s birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants.”
Both these men were pagans and they each declared their own (birth) day making birthday feasts in their own honor… The celebration of each of these two birthdays was culminated in death! The baker to the Pharoah was hung and Herod beheaded John the Baptist at the request of Herodias…is there a reason that the bible only shows birthdays in an evil light? In the bible, only those who do not know God exalted themselves by means of a birthday celebration. 1 Corinthians 10:31 “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.”
Remember that the angels and the shepherds did not glorify the infant Jesus but gave all praise and glory to God. Even though there are no scriptures showing we must celebrate his birth there are scriptures that teach us of the importance of His sacrificing death. We commemorate His death at Passover annually
explain this to me Matthew 6:7 - “When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.” the rosary… Do you not say the same things over and over?Well, I am Catholic and that IS my point of view. Between Tradition, Scripture and the Magisterium I think we got it right. I find it amazing which verses that Protestants decided to take literally and the literal ones they decide are symbolic. Go figure. Thank God that Catholics have a final teaching authority unlike the rest of Christianity. So we always get it right
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ChosenOne7
Guest
So many questions… I’ll answer them one by one… Let’s focus on this topic then…
Matt. 6:9, 10: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (What is God’s will regarding the earth?
John 10:16 : “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Who are these “other sheep”?
Now let’s suppose everyone does go to heaven when they die…Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” would this not be contradictory?
What about Psalms 37:9-11 a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled - “9 For evil men will be done away with,
But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.
10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”
They were looking forward to life on earth forever… Nothing about heaven… Jesus says at Matt. 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” why would they inherit the earth if they going to heaven when they die?
Tell me something… I understand where you coming from… And you are correct when you say he died for all our sins not just 144000… Answer me this what did the prophets before Jesus time believe in because no where in the old testament does it speak about heaven, also they weren’t born again… they all believed in having a perfect life on earth… Jesus basically opened the door to heaven and started teaching about it to his diciples in the new testament. You yourself said it… ‘God will dwell with his people on a new Earth’… If everyone goes to heaven then who is the new Earth for or why would God need to dwell on it? You say there is no such thing…
Matt. 6:9, 10: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (What is God’s will regarding the earth?
John 10:16 : “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Who are these “other sheep”?
Now let’s suppose everyone does go to heaven when they die…Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” would this not be contradictory?
What about Psalms 37:9-11 a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled - “9 For evil men will be done away with,
But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.
10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”
They were looking forward to life on earth forever… Nothing about heaven… Jesus says at Matt. 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” why would they inherit the earth if they going to heaven when they die?
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Tomdstone
Guest
Is the Father omniscient? Is the Son omniscient? Is the Holy Spirit omniscient? Is God omniscient. I think that the Catholic teaching is that each is omniscient? But this is contradicted by the Scriptural passages
Matthew 24:36
Mark 13:32
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Tomdstone
Guest
The rosary involves 53 Hail Marys, but also reflection on the mysteries.
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ChosenOne7
Guest
How do you mean?
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Tomdstone
Guest
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jlhargus
Guest
[Jn8:44 Ye are of your **father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.]
Then Jesus didn’t either he called called Satan a father.
[Jn8:44 Ye are of your **father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.]
By the way are you a Jehovah Witness? Its seem you and Chosen are working to in union.
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adf417
Guest
And here is one with more scriptural depth at each mystery -
rosaryarmy.newevangelizers.com/prayers/scriptural-rosary-glorious-mysteries/
Peace!!!
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
There is a significant problem with your claim. The word “rabbi” was not employed as a religious title (otherwise known as an honorific) until the second century C.E., after the Second Temple fell.
In the first century the term meant “master” as in someone who mastered a subject of learning (thus the meaning “teacher”). The Hebrew term was also used to describe members of the Sanhedrin because the word basically means “great one.” But no one was bestowed with the term as a title.
In fact it would not be until the Talmudic era that the term started to be used in the modern sense. The word replaced “Pharisee” for the name of the teachers of Judaism as it was the only branch to survive after the Temple was destroyed.
Since it wasn’t an official title, then what was it? It was a hyperbole, at least when you say the phrases in Hebrew-Aramaic. The term for “rabbi” in Hebrew is “master,” the same word as our English “mister,” as in: “Hello, my name is Mr. So and So.” It was a tterm for the regular man.
So was “father.” That is why Jesus said “call no man” by the word “father.” Notice he did not say not to accept titles such as father. Nor did he limit it to religious leaders. “Call NO MAN” in any setting your “father.”
Every man is a “mister” and most all are “fathers.” Jesus was speaking about not acting like the meaning these words pointed to, namely a “great one” or “life giver.” Only God is truly these things, no matter what we call ourselves or others.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
One more thing, not only was “rabbi” not a religious title during the time of Christ, Jews have never used the term “father” as a religious title or honorific. So this cannot be discussing religious titles.
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