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Tomdstone
Guest
Here’s what you wrote:
Jesus, however, is God from God, True God from true God. Are you saying here that God the Son did not have the information or the knowledge that the Father had?
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pacloc
Guest
You keep asking questions. How do you personally explain why Jesus would say that the Father only knew something? It is difficult to know exactly what you want to discuss without expressing your own opinion. Or are you simply trying to argue for argument’s sake? Do you believe in Christ? Do you believe the Bible to be inspired by God? If not, it seems we could just be running in circles.
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Tomdstone
Guest
The thread is on the JW and what they believe. They do not believe in the Trinity.
I am commenting on an answer given by another poster. According to Catholic belief, Jesus is God from God, true God from true God, one in being with the Father. Also, according to Catholic belief, God is omniscient; i.e., God is all-knowing. And yet the poster claims:
How is it possible to be omniscient, and yet not to know the day or the hour?
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pacloc
Guest
So you don’t want to give your own views? What is it you are looking for in asking all these questions that don’t seem to lead to anything? Do you agree that Jesus is not God? Do you agree that Jesus is not omniscient? Delson has tried to explain that Jesus is in fact omniscient, so when he said that Jesus chose not to use His omniscience, it means some weird, in time, outside time thing.
I’m asking why it is you seem to jump in and tend to argue from the JW side, while still not being a JW yourself. It is hard to word the responses to your questions without knowing what it is you believe. I would really like to know if you believe in God or not. But you seem to dance around the question. If you do not respond in fact that you believe in God, I will assume you do not.
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Tomdstone
Guest
It is also the Holy Spirit who does not know the day or the hour. How can the Holy Spirit be omniscient and not know the day or the hour?
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
Dear Tombdstone:
The two comments you quoted from me are both correct at the same time. I have stated that again and again. One does not negate the other.
Christ’s professed ignorance of the day or hour of the Parousia is not a literal statement in the face of eternity. The Father and the Son share all their divine knowledge in common, true, but outside of eternity the experience of time added a variable for the Son. (Matthew 11.27; John 3.35; 10.15; 17.25) At Matthew 24.36 Jesus clearly displays that in his human state he was without knowledge of the day or hour of this event. This is likely due to the fact that this knowledge lies beyond the scope of what even a perfect human mind can hold.
That the Son willingly allowed himself to enter into this type of existence where certain divine mysteries could not be held within him due to his human state was a choice to limit his abilities as the Second Person of the Trinity during the Incarnation. This temporary limitation served the Father’s purpose as it was not his choice that this information of the day or hour be revealed to humankind. (CCC 472-74) Whereas during the Incarnation the Son experienced what it was like to be limited in scope of conception of these greater mysteries, the time spent was like nothing once he returned to his glorious state in Heaven. –Compare Psalm 90.4.
Whereas from the standpoint of life in the confines of time and space the Son had no knowledge of the hour or day, in eternity the Son always does. These two states exist together because eternity is a plane that transcends time. There is no past or future, only endless existence without beginning, end or limit. Being so great God can experience both the limits of the experience of the Incarnate Son of God and at the same time from eternity’s standpoint transcend this.
In other words “all-knowing” does not necessarily imply “knowing all the time.”
The most concise explanation of this is found in The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, New Testament, in the commentary of Matthew 24.36.
This is the last time I will repeat this answer. It’s just the same thing over and over. I have nothing more to offer. Why don’t you tell us what you believe the truth to be, but PLEASE be kind and do it on another thread.
Can we get back to the thread’s original intention now, or do I have to treat you like a child and call the moderator to force you to follow the rules on how to act on this forum?
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pacloc
Guest
The scripture does not mention the Holy Spirit. It mentions angels, the Son, and the Father. If you really would like to know what the Church Fathers have said on this scripture, there are plenty of ways to find them. But since it appears that you do not believe in God, I don’t know if you would really want to take the time to learn what it is that they say about this scripture. I personally agree with St. John Chrysostom who says this is not a literal statement. It is more of a kind way of saying that He, still in a slave’s form walking the earth, physically communicating and teaching, will not give them any more information as to the detailed day and hour because it would not be good for them. And to continue the idea of His oneness and origin with the Father, He explained that the time was chosen by the Father. You need to believe and understand (what very little is able to be understood by our finite minds) the Trinity in order to begin to understand this scripture. Once you do, it really is no big deal for Jesus to speak this way.
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Tomdstone
Guest
It does not answer why the Holy Spirit does not know the day or the hour, only the Father?
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Tomdstone
Guest
I am trying to understand questions related to the JW POV on this thread. The passage says that only the Father knows the day or hour. The word “only” would seem to rule out that the Holy Spirit would know such. Such an interpretation seems to support the JW POV on the Trinity?
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
The text does not mention the Holy Spirit, but this is likely because Jesus had not given his Last Supper speech about the place the Holy Spirit would play in the future Church. (John 16) It is reasonable to believe that mentioning the Holy Spirit knowing or not knowing at this previous point would not make sense. It was right before his arrest that Jesus first revealed that the Holy Spirit possessed the ability to know and teach things, so it would have been an anachronism if this was stated previously. (John 16:12-15) Being that Jesus here first tells his followers that the Holy Spirit has access to what he and the Father knows, it is likely that this means that the Holy Spirit also has access to this information of the Parousia.
You don’t have to believe what we Catholics do, but can you see we have answers for all this and a theological methodology behind it all? I wish I could help your disbelief or distrust for my comments or whatever it is, but that is beyond the gifts given me.
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pacloc
Guest
The JW point of view changes every few years as I’m sure you are aware. St. Michael used to be the Pope, and now is Jesus. I’m also sure you know that the Holy Spirit to them is not a person, so I don’t know what you are trying to understand about the Holy Spirit in this scripture from a JW pov. They also do not believe that the Son still does not know the hour, they teach that He does know the hour by now. So JW contradict the scripture themselves.
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adf417
Guest
So, you cannot point me to the church teachings that states “Jesus is omniscient”? I didn’t ask for the document that states “God is omniscient”.
You stated:
You made a distinction between each of the persons of the Trinity here and that the Catholic teaching is that each is omniscient. Failure to show this distinct teaching that each person is omniscience without the proper nuances is either misleading or a simple misunderstanding of the Trinity which is not uncommon nor anything to be ashamed of.
I hope you become more open to the fullness of the churches teachings through the CCC and the pleather of other explanations on this subject such as what DelsonJacobs and others have so graciously tried present on this thread.
Peace be with you always!!!
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Tomdstone
Guest
According to Catholic teaching:
Jesus is God from God, true God from true God.
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jlhargus
Guest
Yes true God from true God and God became man and dwelt among us, Jn1:1-14.
[Phili2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in **Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.]
[Jn5:19 Then answered **Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.]
God the Son became man. Christ had two natures divine and human he lived as a normal human being on earth humbling himself. As a man he was like us in all things but sin. He had to learn as we learn. He could do nothing, he did not see the Father do, if the Father did not reveal, let him see, the hour as a man he could not know the hour. The hour is something a man could not learn it must be revealed by God.
Hb4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
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jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by jlhargus: The truth and the light is Jesus Christ, who died for every human being’s sins, not just 144 thousand. Every human being who believes in Christ, repents, is baptized for remission of sins receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one is born again by water and of the Spirit, Jn3:5, and has eternal life if they persevere to the end.
There is no such thing as two gospels one for a heavenly class of 144 thousand born again spirit filled and declared righteous persons. And another gospel for a spiritually dead earthly class never born again who can only hope, by their works, they will be found worth to live on earth. The bible pertains to all Christians not only to 144 thousand with a few verses pertaining to a second class the great crowd. There are only a few verses that actually deal with the 144 thousand and those verses are only in Revelation in reference to Israel. The bible actually tells us God will dwell with all his people on a new earth and new heaven=universe.
[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, **When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)But that’s an other topic for another line. ] I could go on but all this is for another line.
[Hb11:8 By faith **Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for A CITY which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11-12 … 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17-38 … 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.]
Jn8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.]
There is no such thing as two gospels one for a heavenly class of 144 thousand born again spirit filled and declared righteous persons. And another gospel for a spiritually dead earthly class never born again who can only hope, by their works, they will be found worth to live on earth. The bible pertains to all Christians not only to 144 thousand with a few verses pertaining to a second class the great crowd. There are only a few verses that actually deal with the 144 thousand and those verses are only in Revelation in reference to Israel. The bible actually tells us God will dwell with all his people on a new earth and new heaven=universe.
Agreed no one was born again or went to heaven before Christ. All souls before Christ went to Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek, Hell=English. The righteous went to the chamber of Abraham’s Bosom=paradise where they were comforted. The unrighteous went to a chamber of torment, Lk16:19-31. The OT righteous in Abraham’s Bosom were taken into heaven when Christ ascended.
[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, **When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)But that’s an other topic for another line. ] I could go on but all this is for another line.
[Hb11:8 By faith **Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for A CITY which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11-12 … 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17-38 … 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.]
Jn8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.]
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jlhargus
Guest
God has no need of anything, I would say it’s simply His love and desire to dwell with His people that He will dwell with men on the new earth. All God’s people, the saved, without distinction will be in God’s presents seeing Him face to face, in heaven, the new regenerated earth and universe. There is no such thing as a heavenly class and a earthly class. That’s simply a tradition of men not found anywhere in scripture. If there were scriptural evident you would have posted it, instead of asking me questions. I would be interested how you would scripturally answer your own questions.
2Pt3:the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 1 3 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.]
Rv21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4-20 … 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.]
Rv22:1-2 … 3 And there shall be no more curse: but THE THRONE OF GOD and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
They are the Gentiles, the other sheep who are not of the Jewish fold. The Gentiles are the other sheep which Christ will bring in making one flock.
[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past **Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain [two] one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both [BOTH] unto God in one [ONE] body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.]
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jlhargus
Guest
No, not at all, as Rv21:1-23 and Rv22:1-4 see above. God’s throne will be on earth and his people will see His face. That is heaven on earth.
JL: The Lord’s prayer in the scriptures says it very well, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That prayer will be answer when heavenly Jerusalem will come down to the earth after the resurrection and the regeneration of all creation as scripture tells us. Heaven and earth will be united with God dwelling on earth with His people. [Rv22:1-2 … 3 And there shall be no more curse: but **THE THRONE OF GOD and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.]
[2Pt3:10 But **the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 1 3 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.]
All creation will be regenerated and cleansed just as those who are baptized are cleansed and sanctified regenerated by water and of the Spirit. Where do you think the saved will be when the old earth and universe is dissolved and cleansed? It’s after that the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven and all will dwell on earth with God.
Titus3:55 **Not by works of righteousness **which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
if one has not been born again and received the Holy Spirit indwelling them they are still in the flesh and none of Christs’…
Rms8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
In the issue of fairness, ChosenOne7 is just one person. Some of these posts are extremely lengthy, and we have all bombarded ChosenOne7 with different questions.
Perhaps we can get back on the subject of JW Meetings and make new threads out of our differing questions because each subject, I think, should be addressed, and I think separate threads will not only make it easier on everybody, they will also aid in later research if one subject is handled on one thread.
This is merely a suggestion however. I will not judge anyone for wanting to use this thread in another way. I do think some of these subjects deserve to be focused on individually however, and some people may miss the information if what we discuss is not well represented by the subject heading of this particular thread.
Perhaps we can get back on the subject of JW Meetings and make new threads out of our differing questions because each subject, I think, should be addressed, and I think separate threads will not only make it easier on everybody, they will also aid in later research if one subject is handled on one thread.
This is merely a suggestion however. I will not judge anyone for wanting to use this thread in another way. I do think some of these subjects deserve to be focused on individually however, and some people may miss the information if what we discuss is not well represented by the subject heading of this particular thread.
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