What do YOU find are acceptable reasons for divorce?

[MJJean]

So mark me as other- If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance.

What about the safety of the family? It’s not specifically covered in the quote you used, but the reality is that, in too many ways to list, staying legally married can pose a very real physical, psychological, and even spiritual danger to the spouse(s) and child(ren).

 

[MJJean]

True, but I think some of the well-meaning advisors fall into the trap of treating annulment as it is indeed “Catholic divorce” and make statements such as “if he’s beating you, you likely have a case for annulment”. Now, maybe I should be charitable and assume this is shorthand for “if he’s beating you, he likely has some kind of deep-seated mental or psychiatric problem that likely made him unable to contract marriage validly in the first place”.

When I suggest divorce and/or seeking annulment I mean apply for annulment and let the Church sort it out. No one on the internet can say for sure if a marriage is invalid unless it’s a case of a catholic marrying outside of the Church sans dispensation or one of the parties has been previously married sans annulment.

Heck, a lot of the time the spouses themselves aren’t aware they were in an invalid marriage. Either they or their spouses intended against the teachings of the Church when the marriage took place, yet this fact didn’t come to light until later. Sometimes, the defect doesn’t come to light until the spouses are filling out the annulment forms.

However, it seems many Catholics seem to think that what occurs AFTER marriage is what the tribunals should consider. Many seem to think an “innocent” spouse in such a situation somehow DESERVES a second chance at marriage even if they don’t really have a case for nullity, and that the Church should be “merciful” and “pastoral”, and of course those who question annulments seem to suspect that this is what’s REALLY going on and why “95% of all annulments are granted”, etc.

What comes AFTER marriage is not cause for annulment, but is supporting evidence that there was a defect in consent in the first place. So many confuse evidence supporting the grounds with the grounds themselves.

I’ve read some stories where the innocent spouse doesn’t seem to have a case because the innocent spouse actually intended true marriage. The problem is that only one spouse defectively consenting to marriage is required for annulment. So, the innocent spouse “doesn’t seem to have a case”, yet they actually do have a case on account of their husband/wife defectively consenting to marriage. Which is why I always tell people to apply for annulment. Just because you (general you here) consented to a real marriage doesn’t mean your former spouse did.

And on the more traditional side, many often state that “a marriage that lasted 15 years and produced 5 kids just CAN’T be null”, even though such a marriage certainly isn’t exempt from the 4 As, or one spouse suddenly “coming out” as homosexual, etc.

I get a chuckle out of this thought process. I was civilly “married” for a total of 8 years. Two kids were born to myself and my ex, one before and one after the “marriage”. I literally have no idea what my ex was thinking before and during the marriage ceremony, but I know that I did not intend the marriage to be permanent, to have another child with him…ever…(my oldest and middle children were ABC “failures”) and neither of us intended the marriage to be monogamous. Additionally, we didn’t live as a married couple. We lived like FWB (in this case, Frienemies with occasional benefits) who occasionally had to deal with each other in social situations and sometimes had to discuss household matters. Abuse (physical, emotional, and financial) along with adultery (frequent and on both sides) and a host of other issues were also in play.

Now, a lot of folks would say “You were married for 8 years and had two children together. Couldn’t have been invalid!” My response is “You truly never know what goes on in someone else’s head or their marriage, not even your parents.”

(I suppose the homosexuality/SSA issue somewhat comes under the "four A"s as many such closeted people will have affairs with the same sex, but I assume that even if this was not the case, if the other spouse had no idea about the SSA and wouldn’t have gone through with the marriage if he or she had known, there is a good case for nullity anyway.)

Well, I don’t think most CAFer go as far as thinking it is “no big deal”. However, I have seen (mostly men) state “if my spouse ever cheats on me, I’m OUT” even though the Church encourages reconciliation, and indeed the risk of divorce is one reason many give for not revealing adulterous affairs.

There’s also a topic in Moral Theology about an actual adulterous relationship in which posters have advised the adulterers should be “honest” and file for divorce from their current spouses if they really want to be together, which is certainly standard secular advice in such a situation, but not really Catholic advice (or even those of most major religions).

raises hand I was the one in that thread suggesting an honest divorce. The adulteress in that situation is claiming she is in love with her affair partner and that they are going to get divorced and marry each other in some years when the kids are older. I see this as dishonest and very cruel.

My take is that if they are going to leave their spouses because they are so in love then why not do it now? And if they aren’t doing it now than perhaps they should consider they are never going to do it, are living in a brain chemical induced fantasy, and should stop the affair and work on their marriages. Fish or cut bait.

 

[on_the_hill]

I voted 4As, but there’s wiggle room.

Physical abuse? Absolutely.

Addiction? Maybe. Before we were married my wife said she’d forgive anything, including addiction, but would not forgive Adultery.

Abandonment? Depends. If there’s abandonment that can be resolved (addiction, for example), then maybe it can be resolved. But if one person simply walks away and never comes back…yes. Then divorce. It happened to an extended-family member. Wife left one day without warning and never had any more contact with the husband and child again for the rest of her life. Whether that marriage was annulled or divorced, I don’t know.

 

[styrgwillidar]

What about the safety of the family? It’s not specifically covered in the quote you used, but the reality is that, in too many ways to list, staying legally married can pose a very real physical, psychological, and even spiritual danger to the spouse(s) and child(ren).

I believe that falls under the care of the children. Care of children includes keeping them safe. Also, I believe the citation of Canon law in the catechism justifying living separately includes the reasons you cited.

 

[LSK]

It seems to me that on most of the topics about marital woe posted in Family Life, there is usually at least one poster who suggests divorce and annulment as an option. The attitude among some, seems to be, “hey, what’s the point of staying in an unhappy marriage in this day and age, when 99% of American divorcees can get annulments?” Which is really not much different from “secular” attitudes about marriage.

As opposed to many conservative Protestants, who although they recognize marriages can be ended by divorce in a way Catholics don’t, often are very judgmental of those who get divorced. (For example, the many former Amy Grant fans who abandoned her, even sent her hate mail, after her divorce.)

Even many of the Catholics who don’t presume that annulment will be automatically granted, seem to think that the only sin is remarriage without an annulment, but divorce itself is no big deal, it’s fine to get one for petty reasons or for no reasons at all without any examination of conscience, as long as the one getting divorced accepts the possibility that they might wind up alone and celibate for many years.

Of course, such attitudes often rile up the more traditional Catholics who lament this casual attitude toward divorce, and angrily post that divorce itself is a sin, and even in cases of severe physical abuse, one must consult, not even a priest, but a bishop, before undertaking any divorce proceedings.

So, I was curious as to what the average CAF poster thought about the issue.

I cannot speak to much of what you proposed. I am the child of a woman who was abandoned by her husband long before it was ‘fashionable’ to get a divorce. She was guided by her parish priest, right out of Church Teachings.

He told her that she would need to make sure her rights and the rights of her children were protected, and that this might mean a legal separation to protect the assets of the family and to make sure my father met his financial obligations towards his children.

She did so, but did not file for divorce. It was a good thing that she did because six months after walking out on her, his five and a half year old daughter and his unborn son, he moved in with another woman. The two of them went to another state and ‘got married’. About a year later, to the absolute chagrin of both my father and his new ‘wife’ it turned out he was, technically, a bigamist.

My mother said that if he wanted a divorce it would be up to him to incur the financial burden of filing with the court. He did - remarried the woman and spent the next 35 years periodically calling my mother and lamenting his actions.

When he died he had two friends in the world - me ( out of his three children) and my mother.

We were blessed that a week before he died my father reconciled with The Church.

His second wife had been dead for about two years when this happened.

Abandonment, physical and/or mental abuse, insanity - these, to me, are good reasons for a marriage to end in the eyes of the state.

 

[Clearwater14]

I didn’t vote for the 4 "A"s because neither adultery nor addiction are true grounds for an annulment or divorce. When doing marriage prep those are two stumbling blocks for many couples. The concept of forgiving someone who has betrayed you is hard for many to accept. Adultery is a huge one for many during marriage prep (“If I find s/he cheated on me it’s over.”) Those two might be part of the reasons for divorce, but only if they are part of a larger problem. They can be indicative of other things but are not themselves legitimate reasons to divorce.

Good point. The problem I had with the 4 A’s (even though I chose this answer on the poll) is what actually is adultery? What I mean is are people divorcing their spouse because they had a lap dance at a strip club or are they getting a divorce because their spouse had intercourse with another person? This is my question because I believe their is different “levels” of adultery. Kissing is adultery but is it grounds for a divorce? That is the question.

 

[MJJean]

Good point. The problem I had with the 4 A’s (even though I chose this answer on the poll) is what actually is adultery? What I mean is are people divorcing their spouse because they had a lap dance at a strip club or are they getting a divorce because their spouse had intercourse with another person? This is my question because I believe their is different “levels” of adultery. Kissing is adultery but is it grounds for a divorce? That is the question.

I don’t think there is any clear answer. To some even kissing would be grounds to leave. To others, only sex would matter that much. To some, a physical affair isn’t enough to leave, but emotional involvement would be the straw that broke the camels back.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think there is any clear answer. To some even kissing would be grounds to leave. To others, only sex would matter that much. To some, a physical affair isn’t enough to leave, but emotional involvement would be the straw that broke the camels back.

Plus, there’s the issue of quantity. A one-time episode of actual sex might weigh less than a long-standing and consistent pattern of inappropriate emotional relationships with persons of the opposite sex that the spouse refuses to stop indulging in.

 

[Xantippe]

Blatant, lengthy and unrepentant use of pornography might also fit under the “adultery” rubric, although you might also squeeze it in under addiction or abuse.

 

[MJJean]

Plus, there’s the issue of quantity. A one-time episode of actual sex might weigh less than a long-standing and consistent pattern of inappropriate emotional relationships with persons of the opposite sex that the spouse refuses to stop indulging in.

It’s such a complicated issue.

If my DH had a brief physical affair I think I could get past it if he felt true remorse and was 100% committed to fixing the underlying problem and staying faithful ever after.

If he was having a long term affair and there was emotional involvement or if he was not remorseful and willing to commit 100% I’d pack his things and give them to his mistress with my compliments.

If he were a serial cheater I’d help him find an apartment and move his things into it! Good luck and all that.

Yet I know couples in marriage where one turns a blind eye to years of affairs and a few couples in marriages that are “open” who consider physical relations no big deal, but who would lose their minds if their spouse got emotionally involved with anyone else.

 

[MJJean]

Blatant, lengthy and unrepentant use of pornography might also fit under the “adultery” rubric, although you might also squeeze it in under addiction or abuse.

You know, I think I could make an argument any affair is addiction. The same happy hormones released when viewing porn that are addictive also get released in the shiny new romance sex haze of an affair. I don’t think that excuses the cheater, though. It just helps explain part of why.

 

[Xantippe]

You know, I think I could make an argument any affair is addiction. The same happy hormones released when viewing porn that are addictive also get released in the shiny new romance sex haze of an affair. I don’t think that excuses the cheater, though. It just helps explain part of why.

That’s interesting.

I think that is probably very helpful in understanding the serial cheater–there may be something like an addiction at play.

Very anecdotally, there does seem to be a fairly big distinction between the repented-of one-off affair (which a lot of marriages seem to recover from) versus serial cheating.

I can’t find the cites right now, but I believe there’s also a gender gap between men and women and forgiving an adulterous spouse. I’m vaguely recalling that wives are more forgiving and husbands and husbands are less forgiving, but I can’t for the life of me find the stats.

 

[MJJean]

That’s interesting.

I think that is probably very helpful in understanding the serial cheater–there may be something like an addiction at play.

Very anecdotally, there does seem to be a fairly big distinction between the repented-of one-off affair (which a lot of marriages seem to recover from) versus serial cheating.

I can’t find the cites right now, but I believe there’s also a gender gap between men and women and forgiving an adulterous spouse. I’m vaguely recalling that wives are more forgiving and husbands and husbands are less forgiving, but I can’t for the life of me find the stats.

I’ve noticed far more threads on that other forum started by women who are trying to reconcile after an affair their husband had than I find of men reconciling after their wives had an affair. But that could be because men might not be as inclined to go to an online forum to get support while trying to reconcile.

I’ve also noticed more threads in the separation/divorce section started by men who are trying to get through their divorces after their wives have had an affair even though they are heartbroken and desperately miss their wives and children.

I think it’s part social and part biological. Socially, cuckolded men get more static if they stay than a wife in the same situation does. Biologically, women know the baby is theirs where the man is trusting that the baby is his. Once that trust is broken I think a lot of men start to wonder if their kids are indeed theirs and imagine a future of raising someone else’s child if their wife strays again. One of the first things I see posted in cases where the wife cheated and there are children involved is “Get a DNA test on your kids. Who knows? They might be from an affair she never told you about!”

 

[styrgwillidar]

I’ve noticed far more threads on that other forum started by women who are trying to reconcile after an affair their husband had than I find of men reconciling after their wives had an affair. But that could be because men might not be as inclined to go to an online forum to get support while trying to reconcile.

I’ve also noticed more threads in the separation/divorce section started by men who are trying to get through their divorces after their wives have had an affair even though they are heartbroken and desperately miss their wives and children.

I think it’s part social and part biological. Socially, cuckolded men get more static if they stay than a wife in the same situation does. Biologically, women know the baby is theirs where the man is trusting that the baby is his. Once that trust is broken I think a lot of men start to wonder if their kids are indeed theirs and imagine a future of raising someone else’s child if their wife strays again. One of the first things I see posted in cases where the wife cheated and there are children involved is “Get a DNA test on your kids. Who knows? They might be from an affair she never told you about!”

Heard a therapist say that when women are done, they’re done. That once a woman decides to have an affair she’s pretty much emotionally left the marriage - so answer may be not as many women wanting to reconcile after they’ve had an affair? A complete guess.

I’m a guy. As to the DNA thing, I’ve heard that a lot too and I just don’t see the point. Once my kids were born and I’d started changing their diapers, walking them when they were colicky, burping them after being fed etc. etc. etc. I was pretty much bonded. They were mine. What would a test tell me? Would I suddenly stop loving them based on the results of a test? Nope. Nothing good to come of it- only possible anger and resentment against my wife. But as far as the kids, emotionally and commitment-wise nothing would change. And it wouldn’t change anything legally where I live anyway. Kids born while married, I’m legally the Dad and financially responsible regardless of biology. No fault divorce state, so it wouldn’t change anything about a divorce settlement. If I lived somewhere that it did- would I really want to open the door to some other guy having access to the kids? Actually produce evidence that someone could use to put a barrier/impediment to me having access to my kids? Uh,… NO! Again, once I’d started raising them, they’re mine.

 

[MJJean]

Heard a therapist say that when women are done, they’re done. That once a woman decides to have an affair she’s pretty much emotionally left the marriage - so answer may be not as many women wanting to reconcile after they’ve had an affair? A complete guess.

I’m a guy. As to the DNA thing, I’ve heard that a lot too and I just don’t see the point. Once my kids were born and I’d started changing their diapers, walking them when they were colicky, burping them after being fed etc. etc. etc. I was pretty much bonded. They were mine. What would a test tell me? Would I suddenly stop loving them based on the results of a test? Nope. Nothing good to come of it- only possible anger and resentment against my wife. But as far as the kids, emotionally and commitment-wise nothing would change. And it wouldn’t change anything legally where I live anyway. Kids born while married, I’m legally the Dad and financially responsible regardless of biology. No fault divorce state, so it wouldn’t change anything about a divorce settlement. If I lived somewhere that it did- would I really want to open the door to some other guy having access to the kids? Actually produce evidence that someone could use to put a barrier/impediment to me having access to my kids? Uh,… NO! Again, once I’d started raising them, they’re mine.

I think that’s a good guess. Most of the men posting were blindsided. Thought everything was great and then WHAMMO! their wives suddenly leave. They find out about the affair at the time the wife says she’s leaving or shortly after. A few have said they wanted to try to work it out, but their wives refused because they “loved but weren’t in love” with their husbands and had an emotional attachment to the new guy.

I was raised by a man not my bio father and I think of myself as his kid because he was the guy who scraped me off the pavement and doctored me up when I was learning to ride a bike, busted my butt when I need it, and loved me. All I want from my bio father is medical history, but I’m not holding my breath since I last saw him when I was 4 years old. I’m 39 now,

We’re not alone in our belief the daddy is the guy who raised the carpet crawler. Ther are a few on the other forum who have good reason to believe that one or more of their kids aren’t biologically theirs but who have stated they don’t want a DNA test because no matter what that kid is theirs. There is even one guy going through a divorce who knows his daughter is not biologically his child (child was 2 when he and stb ex-wife got together) and he is paying support voluntarily as well as doing visitation a few days a week and on weekends. Hats off and blessings to him. He sounds like a good man.

 

[styrgwillidar]

. There is even one guy going through a divorce who knows his daughter is not biologically his child (child was 2 when he and stb ex-wife got together) and he is paying support voluntarily as well as doing visitation a few days a week and on weekends. Hats off and blessings to him. He sounds like a good man.

Yes he does. Kids need a relationship with both parents and it’s exceedingly cruel if one parent gets full custody and tries to minimize or inhibit access to the non-custodial, they’re hurting their own kids even worse than they are the other parent. Kids do better when it’s joint custody as you described.

 

[Clearwater14]

And this is why I brought up the point what is justifiable grounds for a divorce? I do not believe (and I don’t think a Priest would tell you) to file for a divorce if your husband kissed a girl at a bar. Yes, it is adultery, however, it doesn’t have the same weight as having intercourse with another person. I do believe there is a huge difference. I think someone who files for a divorce for their spouse kissing someone at a bar one time would not have grounds for a divorce. I think they are using grounds for a divorce to justify getting out of the marriage.

Another example would be porn use. I don’t think watching porn means it is ok for the spouse to file for divorce. I do not believe that divorce would be justified in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

I am pretty positive if you spoke to your Pastor, he would say that kissing another person or watching porn isn’t enough to justify getting a divorce. There is a difference.

I do believe there is specific criteria that justifies getting a divorce. Now if your spouse is sleeping around or having an affair, divorce would be justified. This is something that is very difficult to forgive and work out. If you spouse got drunk and kissed someone at the bar this is something that can be worked out through marriage counseling. The Priest would advise you to work it out and forgive.

I think too many people are getting divorces for “minor” infractions. Marriage is a sacrament to death do us apart. And, married couples should try harder to fix things and work it out. Marriage Counseling should be sought and more effort needs to go into preserving the sacrament of marriage. Married couples need to put more effort into fixing their problems. Too many people throw in the towel to quickly.

 

[MJJean]

And this is why I brought up the point what is justifiable grounds for a divorce? I do not believe (and I don’t think a Priest would tell you) to file for a divorce if your husband kissed a girl at a bar. Yes, it is adultery, however, it doesn’t have the same weight as having intercourse with another person. I do believe there is a huge difference. I think someone who files for a divorce for their spouse kissing someone at a bar one time would not have grounds for a divorce. I think they are using grounds for a divorce to justify getting out of the marriage.

Another example would be porn use. I don’t think watching porn means it is ok for the spouse to file for divorce. I do not believe that divorce would be justified in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

I am pretty positive if you spoke to your Pastor, he would say that kissing another person or watching porn isn’t enough to justify getting a divorce. There is a difference.

I do believe there is specific criteria that justifies getting a divorce. Now if your spouse is sleeping around or having an affair, divorce would be justified. This is something that is very difficult to forgive and work out. If you spouse got drunk and kissed someone at the bar this is something that can be worked out through marriage counseling. The Priest would advise you to work it out and forgive.

I think too many people are getting divorces for “minor” infractions. Marriage is a sacrament to death do us apart. And, married couples should try harder to fix things and work it out. Marriage Counseling should be sought and more effort needs to go into preserving the sacrament of marriage. Married couples need to put more effort into fixing their problems. Too many people throw in the towel to quickly.

Are you counting emotional affairs or just physical among your reasons a divorce is justified?

 

[Xantippe]

Another example would be porn use. I don’t think watching porn means it is ok for the spouse to file for divorce. I do not believe that divorce would be justified in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

**What if the person holes up in their office all evening and into the wee hours of the morning with the computer and the door shut? Or, alternately, is sloppy about watching porn around children and spouse (or is frequently flicking it off a moment after they see what’s on the screen)? And let’s say that the stuff that they watch leaks into their attitude toward their spouse and they demand all sorts of iffy and degrading practices because they’ve seen it in porn.

It’s actually quite easy to imagine intolerable situations involving pornography. **

I think too many people are getting divorces for “minor” infractions.

**Do you honestly believe that people are getting divorced all over America because their spouse kissed somebody at a bar?

Not very likely. **

Marriage is a sacrament to death do us apart. And, married couples should try harder to fix things and work it out. Marriage Counseling should be sought and more effort needs to go into preserving the sacrament of marriage. Married couples need to put more effort into fixing their problems. Too many people throw in the towel to quickly.

A lot of people refuse marriage counseling and then are “surprised” when their spouse divorces them.

Any time a spouse suggests marriage counseling, go to marriage counseling.

That was your warning. Do not ignore it.

 

[Clearwater14]

I went to 3 Priests about my husband’s sexual sins. All 3 priests told me that Porn isn’t grounds for a divorce in the Catholic Church. All 3 priests also told me that I should forgive sexual sins such as kissing and lap dances (as long as my husband is sorry, repents, and stops doing this behavior).

What I am saying and I feel that my words have been twisted on this forum is that many Catholics file for annulments for “minor” things that should be worked out and forgiven. I believe an “emotional” affair is something that could also be worked out and is not grounds for a divorce.

He should forgive someone 7 times 77. Jesus would want you to forgive and try to make the marriage work. Too many people throw in the towel without trying to fix the marriage.