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PJM
Guest
Thanks, very well done!
God Bless you
Patrick
God Bless you
Patrick
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Kei
Guest
God knows or can know everything that has ever happened, everything that is happening, and everything that will happen. Does that mean He knows everything that has never happened, everything that is not happening, and everything that never will happen?
Just knowing that an event will happen doesn’t mean you made it happen. This is not a platitude, it is true.
Let us try to view this from the angle of how God would understand it as much as possible.
He is outside of time. He created us. He knew what we would do, and what we could have done, and what we did not do and could not have done. If you choose strawberry milk, you were not made to choose strawberry milk. You also had white milk available to you. You could have chosen either one, your choice. But you didn’t. You chose one. Well, actually, you could have chosen to drink both of them, but then would’ve realized that you drank too much and then would have been in the bathroom and missed your favorite show, which had an event in it that would later inspire you to make your own special cake for a bake sale, which is where you would have met this one person who you really, really hit it off with, but this person was really someone who was going to simply try to steal your recipe for an upcoming holiday. But, you didn’t choose both, you only chose one. Of course, you could have chose neither but then…well, never mind, back to the point. You chose strawberry. God did not make you choose strawberry. He simply knew you would. Perhaps this can get into a discussion on God’s passive vs active Will.
Just knowing that an event will happen doesn’t mean you made it happen. This is not a platitude, it is true.
Let us try to view this from the angle of how God would understand it as much as possible.
He is outside of time. He created us. He knew what we would do, and what we could have done, and what we did not do and could not have done. If you choose strawberry milk, you were not made to choose strawberry milk. You also had white milk available to you. You could have chosen either one, your choice. But you didn’t. You chose one. Well, actually, you could have chosen to drink both of them, but then would’ve realized that you drank too much and then would have been in the bathroom and missed your favorite show, which had an event in it that would later inspire you to make your own special cake for a bake sale, which is where you would have met this one person who you really, really hit it off with, but this person was really someone who was going to simply try to steal your recipe for an upcoming holiday. But, you didn’t choose both, you only chose one. Of course, you could have chose neither but then…well, never mind, back to the point. You chose strawberry. God did not make you choose strawberry. He simply knew you would. Perhaps this can get into a discussion on God’s passive vs active Will.
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BornInMarch
Guest
It’s annoying how many people ignore who claim to be catholic ignore what the vatican says. I can’t state how many times I’ve had this conversation.
Other Person: “The church says this!”
Me: “No it doesn’t. Here’s a document from the Vatican describing what it actually says on the topic.”
Other Person: “You’re wrong. The church says this!”
Me: “What about the indisputable source I cited?”
Other Person: “I’m just gonna pretend you didn’t cite anything! I won’t even mention it in my rebuttal!”
Me: “Well here’s some more sources. From priests.”
Other Person: “Those priests are wrong! I may be a layperson without any training in theology, but I believe I know better than even experts on faith!”
Me: groans
But that’s just a problem with terrible people, not with the church itself. Even Jesus himself knew this; one of his apostles handed him over to his executioners and the others abandoned him.
With the church itself, I’m still confused as to what baptism does. It doesn’t assure our salvation because baptised people still sin and are still in danger of perdition. It isn’t a necessity for salvation because the church itself says unbaptized people do go to Heaven (unlearned people and martyrs being two examples listed in the Catechism). If it’s a way of devoting your life to Christ then why do we baptize people before they’re old enough to know what that is?
Other Person: “The church says this!”
Me: “No it doesn’t. Here’s a document from the Vatican describing what it actually says on the topic.”
Other Person: “You’re wrong. The church says this!”
Me: “What about the indisputable source I cited?”
Other Person: “I’m just gonna pretend you didn’t cite anything! I won’t even mention it in my rebuttal!”
Me: “Well here’s some more sources. From priests.”
Other Person: “Those priests are wrong! I may be a layperson without any training in theology, but I believe I know better than even experts on faith!”
Me: groans
But that’s just a problem with terrible people, not with the church itself. Even Jesus himself knew this; one of his apostles handed him over to his executioners and the others abandoned him.
With the church itself, I’m still confused as to what baptism does. It doesn’t assure our salvation because baptised people still sin and are still in danger of perdition. It isn’t a necessity for salvation because the church itself says unbaptized people do go to Heaven (unlearned people and martyrs being two examples listed in the Catechism). If it’s a way of devoting your life to Christ then why do we baptize people before they’re old enough to know what that is?
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Scowler
Guest
No, a triangle is not a square.
A Mobius strip has only one side. No front and no back side.
Uh-oh! I am not even going to speculate how THAT “marriage” was consummated.
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De_Maria
Guest
A square has four angles.De_Maria:
No, a triangle is not a square.
A Mobius strip has only one side. No front and no back side.
[/quote]
Look again. See the shadow on the bottom.
That is why Scripture says, “to the pure, all is pure”.
In the consummation of the Eucharist. It is the marriage to the Church.
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Mintaka
Guest
Baptism is a Sacrament (a visual sign of invisible grace, that actually does what it signifies) where we die to our old selves and rise up new. Sin is washed away completely as the person is reborn. Baptism also makes us sons and daughters of God, co-heirs with Jesus; and body parts of the Body of Christ. The cross marked on our forehead (and other body parts) is a sign that our souls are indelibly marked as such.
But we can choose to refuse our position as adopted children of God, waste our inheritance, and poop all over God’s love and care. He will always take us back, up until the last moment… but we have free will, so we can do the wrong thing if we want.
Of course Baptism doesn’t assure our salvation. If we really, really want to reject God later on, He is not going to hold us against our will. No guns to our heads, no forcing us to live in bliss forever and ever.
Jesus instructed us to baptize people. He didn’t say that He wasn’t going to baptize people too!
The formal way of saying this is that Jesus has granted graces to the Church, to be distributed through the Sacraments. But He is not bound to distribute graces only in that way. The story of the workers in the vineyard tells about that sort of situation.
But although we can trust Jesus to take care of emergency stuff, He has made it clear that He expects us to baptize. So we can’t put the burden all on Him.
It’s an adoption. Tons of babies get adopted. Adoptions are one example of a covenant action (ie, a way of creating family bonds between unrelated people). Plenty of adoptions of babies, so it’s not a surprising thing to see baptisms of babies, either.
Another example is circumcision, which made Jewish males into members of God’s extended clan. It was a family matter, so their parents could give consent to it for them. If a guy grew up and wanted no part of God, he could leave. A lot of Jews did.
Of course it’s more advantageous to grow up under a covenant than to have to negotiate one. What other tribe or family could be better than God’s family? If a child’s parents are in it, why would they want the kid to be excluded?
(“Please cut my baby out of the will until she’s old enough to torque you off,” said nobody ever.)
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Livenotonevil
Guest
Vatican II, and how religiously indifferent people have become since then.
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PJM
Guest
Why my friend do YOU find this to be confusing?
Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa became Saints in that time period
GBY
PJM
Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa became Saints in that time period
GBY
PJM
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Livenotonevil
Guest
It seems that - at least in interpretation - the entire Church in how it teaches fundamentally changed its doctrines in terms of liturgy and other religions.
It’s a long list.
It’s a long list.
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Scowler
Guest
And four sides. A triangle has 3 angles and three sides. There can be no “four sided triangle”, not even for God.
At what? The Mobius strip only has one side. Not even God can put that “four sided triangle” on the reverse side, since there is no reverse side.
Oh, brother. So the church marries to all the priests? What a moral cesspit! What happens on the wedding night?
Get real. Not even God can create a stone so big that he is unable to lift it. The laws of logic are “above” God.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
Perhaps Logic is an aspect of God’s nature. The things you ask about are definition bound.
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Kei
Guest
Hello, I would like to say baptism washes away our original sin, and brings us in the Church of Christ. Hence infants baptized properly by protestants are srill Catholic. Prior to Baptism, we are spiritually dead.
Many would wait until one was about to die/very sick to baptize them back in the day of, say, St Augustine.
Those saved without baptism would be the exceptions rather than the rule. Martyrs are “baptized by blood”, and those with baptism of desire may be similar to Abraham who was justified by agreeing to be circumcised. Even if he were to die before it happened, but was willing and hopeful to go through it, it still would have been similar. We are not clearly told the judgement of infants without baptism, but are told to trust in God’s Mercy and not despair.
Many would wait until one was about to die/very sick to baptize them back in the day of, say, St Augustine.
Those saved without baptism would be the exceptions rather than the rule. Martyrs are “baptized by blood”, and those with baptism of desire may be similar to Abraham who was justified by agreeing to be circumcised. Even if he were to die before it happened, but was willing and hopeful to go through it, it still would have been similar. We are not clearly told the judgement of infants without baptism, but are told to trust in God’s Mercy and not despair.
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Kei
Guest
Yes, I am pretty sure that this is very closely related to the Word, ie Jesus Christ. The Logos, Wisdom, reason etc.
I believe it was said that Plato and such partook of the Word because of their practice of a truer philosophy.
God is completely self sufficient. He is the source of Wisdom, and authority, and Good.
I believe it was said that Plato and such partook of the Word because of their practice of a truer philosophy.
God is completely self sufficient. He is the source of Wisdom, and authority, and Good.
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PJM
Guest
Thank you,
As a FYI, Defined Doctrines are not changeable.
What you refer to as changes in the Liturgy are termed Church Practices, which are changeable [not always for the better as history has proven].
I’m unclear as to what you means as to “how it teaches”; not necessarily disagreeing with you, just unclear as to what you mean?
God Bless you
PJM
As a FYI, Defined Doctrines are not changeable.
What you refer to as changes in the Liturgy are termed Church Practices, which are changeable [not always for the better as history has proven].
I’m unclear as to what you means as to “how it teaches”; not necessarily disagreeing with you, just unclear as to what you mean?
God Bless you
PJM
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modestobruce
Guest
My two cents fwiw-did Mary really have free will to do “no” to the angel messenger? If she had, was there another, backup pure virgin waiting in the wings ready to go? I think not and we’re told she was the only person ever born free of original sin. So, logic tells me she had not the choice to deny God and had to say yes. Of course, we’re thinking like simple humans about something outside our pay grade.
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fredystairs
Guest
I’ve always thought that if Mary did not have free will then she wouldn’t be fully human but she would be more like a robot that was programmed. The question then would be If she was not fully human, would Jesus have been fully human? And if He was not fully human could He have saved us? I believe that one of the Early Church Fathers (I forget which one) said that that which had not been taken on (this meaning a full human nature) could not have been saved. If Jesus was not fully human than he could not have saved us.
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Reuben_J
Guest
She has free will. It is her choice to say yes. Beyond that we don’t know. God had a plan and it worked accordingly. We don’t know the alternative though and that’s about it for us - there’s no need to second guess God.
More importantly Mary’s fiat gives her the special honor, reverence and veneration from us.
More importantly Mary’s fiat gives her the special honor, reverence and veneration from us.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
Think any confusion is a result of taking any of the imagery too literally. I am more at peace in the apophatic approach or via negative.
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DetectiveNiko
Guest
If God wanted for everyone to be saved, why did he appear to the Jews only and not all the other cultures?
Sure it would be difficult for those people to comprehend, but it would make things a lot easier both then and today.
Sure it would be difficult for those people to comprehend, but it would make things a lot easier both then and today.
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