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Church_Militant
Guest
Try this, How Is A Catholic Saved?
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Hiswillbedone
Guest
There is the one time act of justification that occurs when a sinner from his/her heart confesses their sin and believes on Jesus and His sacrificial death on the cross as atonement for their sins.
Then, there is sanctification which is a lifetime work of the Holy Spirit who came into the believer at the time of the new birth and continually works to bring transformation in the believer to the image of Christ.
Then, there is glorification which will happen at the resurrection when we are raised incorruptible.
Without the first step (justification) a person can never have sanctification or glorification because it is the Holy Spirit who does the work and a person does not get indwelt or sealed with the Holy Spirit until he is born again just as Jesus has said in John 3:3-8.
Justification is the moment when a person enters into covenant with God under the blood of Jesus Christ. This is a one time event and must occur before the Holy Spirit can indwell and seal us as a child of God. Roman 10:9-10 says …“that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Sanctification is the working of the Holy Spirit to transform every believer into the image of Jesus Christ. It is not self effort. There is an agreement with the Holy Spirit. A submission to His will, but He is the one who enables us to say no to temptation and yes to love, forgiveness, patience, service etc. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. See also Ephesians 1:13
1 Corinthians 3:16 and 2 Timothy 2:14 speak about “the Spirit who dwells in us”
and Romans 8:11 says “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”
You must have the Spirit for sanctification and glorification and you receive Him (not at baptism) but as a truly repentant sinner who confesses their sin believing in Jesus as their Savior and asking Him to come in a change them. There is not other way to interept that except to interept it in error.
My own experience has been one of trying and trying but until my heart was sincere there was no change. God knows our hearts and He knows when we really mean it. We can pray and pray thinking we sincerely believe what we say, but only God can correctly read our hearts. Our hearts are decptive
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, our hearts are deceptive-and easily enough led into error. Which is why only God knows who the “elect” are with 100% certainty-and for our part we must continue to strive, with His help, throughout our lives to please Him. That is scriptural.
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Hiswillbedone
Guest
We don’t need to strive to please Him because God the Father is pleased with Jesus and His sacrifice. Our job is to make sure we stay in Christ. We must abide in Him as He told us to do. When we come out from behind His covering even just a little we become vulurnable to the enemy. Remember when Jesus spoke of this in John 15. He said “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without me you can do nothing.” John 15:4-5
Yes, we keep the commandments and do good works, but it is not us who does it, but Christ in us who does it. Like Paul said, “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”-Galatians 2:20. Jesus wants to be the Lord of our lives in order that He may live in us and through us. We can’t do anything without Him and shouldn’t even try.
On the comment about only God knowing who the elect are I agree that God does know who His true children are, but I believe that His true children also know who they are. “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”-Romans 8:16. How can someone have a relationship with God and not know it?
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fhansen
Guest
We’re to follow in becoming like Jesus, which is why scripture also tells us that no sinners enter heaven, and why Jesus’ told the woman caught in adultery that her sins were not merely forgiven, but also that she was to ‘go, and sin no more’. What we do with what we’re given after initially being justified plays a role in our eternal fate, God being the ultimate judge of how well we responded.
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Ignatius
Guest
We believe that what Jesus Himself said to do is what we should do.
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dchezik
Guest
“When the answer is simple, God is talking.” – Einstein.
It’s hard to believe that something so crucial could not be summarized in a couple of sentences. When Jesus was asked by the rich man, “Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Did Jesus say, “Well, you have to read and study theology. And then have someone explain it to you. It’s pretty difficult to understand. I don’t think I could tell you in an hour”? When the thief on the cross asked to “be remembered when Jesus came into his kingdom,” did Jesus tell him he couldn’t help him because he hadn’t read the catechism? And yet without cracking a book or looking anything up, the thief was told by Jesus he would be with him that day in paradise. You guys are like the Scribes and Pharisees looking for eternal life in your catechism.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
That’s rich, for an atheist to call us Scribes and Pharisees.
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Porknpie
Guest
Dchezik -
So what did Jesus say in response to the rich man?
Please post Jesus response.
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dchezik
Guest
“19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”Dchezik -
So what did Jesus say in response to the rich man?
Please post Jesus response.
I’m glad for the question. This whole salvation business is a little confusing. Notice there is no “believing in” in the above. Of course this was before the crucifixion so the “sacrifice” hadn’t been made yet. In other places it says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9
.In John 3:16, it says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Other places it says you have to be baptized as well as believe. And sometimes it says you have to repent.
But the thief on the cross clearly had no chance to do any of these!
This is so confusing! I am reminded of the verse, “If the trumpet sounds an uncertain sound, who will answer to the battle?” My question remains: Why should it be so complicated? Or is it complicated? Souls are in jeopardy!
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clem456
Guest
This might be the mother of all absurdities and can be answered thus:
The arrogance of atheism is not swayed by the simple wisdom of children, or you wouldn’t be here broadcasting your atheism against the witness of Christians.
The teaching which you are being referred to, appeals to the power of human reason that you worship, and you discredit that for being too complicated.
:whacky::whacky::whacky:
So to make a long story short, you just don’t believe. No problem, but don’t criticise teaching that you either refuse to, or are unable to, understand.
And by the way, the crucifixion scene you attemt to co-opt…
the Good Thief makes a statement of faith. He does not exactly need a catechism at that moment.
The rich young man passage does not work in your favor either. Please read the whole passage.
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clem456
Guest
It’s not so complicated if you have faith. If you don’t, no explanation will suffice.“19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”
I’m glad for the question. This whole salvation business is a little confusing. Notice there is no “believing in” in the above. Of course this was before the crucifixion so the “sacrifice” hadn’t been made yet. In other places it says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9
In John 3:16, it says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Other places it says you have to be baptized as well as believe. And sometimes it says you have to repent.
But the thief on the cross clearly had no chance to do any of these!
This is so confusing! I am reminded of the verse, “If the trumpet sounds an uncertain sound, who will answer to the battle?” My question remains: Why should it be so complicated? Or is it complicated? Souls are in jeopardy!
I am sorry you are confused. For a clear guide to Catholic teaching go here:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs…m/p3s1c3a2.htm
You can find a wealth of material there on what it means “believe in” and “sacrifice” and “baptism” and “repentance”.
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thenobes
Guest
You’re right, the way is easy. The real problem is, believing that what Jesus said is true.
Indeed, it comes down to he fact that, as an athiest, you have no reason to believe a “best” really exists. For to do so, you have to have a standard to judge what is “best”. Then you need a standard to judge what standard is best to make that judgement. And so on ad infinitum. Or so on, ,… into your gut, that is, into your gut feeling.
Which can’t be seen as reasonable.
However, Christians believe that what Jesus says is the Word of God, an absolute standard, and thus to follow that word entails a belief that he is God. Otherwise, what good is the opinion of Jesus opinion among that others?
So you see, belief is necessary. Then obedience.
peace
steve
What Jesus said is simple. However, why should what he claimed to be the “best” way to live said be any more important or true than what you or I or anyone else may claim to be a “best” way to live?“19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”
I’m glad for the question. This whole salvation business is a little confusing. Notice there is no “believing in” in the above. Of course this was before the crucifixion so the “sacrifice” hadn’t been made yet. In other places it says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9
In John 3:16, it says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Other places it says you have to be baptized as well as believe. And sometimes it says you have to repent.
But the thief on the cross clearly had no chance to do any of these!
This is so confusing! I am reminded of the verse, “If the trumpet sounds an uncertain sound, who will answer to the battle?” My question remains: Why should it be so complicated? Or is it complicated? Souls are in jeopardy!
Indeed, it comes down to he fact that, as an athiest, you have no reason to believe a “best” really exists. For to do so, you have to have a standard to judge what is “best”. Then you need a standard to judge what standard is best to make that judgement. And so on ad infinitum. Or so on, ,… into your gut, that is, into your gut feeling.
Which can’t be seen as reasonable.
However, Christians believe that what Jesus says is the Word of God, an absolute standard, and thus to follow that word entails a belief that he is God. Otherwise, what good is the opinion of Jesus opinion among that others?
So you see, belief is necessary. Then obedience.
peace
steve
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pablope
Guest
"19 I’m glad for the question.
This whole salvation business is a little confusing. Notice there is no “believing in” in the above. Of course this was before the crucifixion so the “sacrifice” hadn’t been made yet. In other places it says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9
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