What do you know for certain?

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Charlemagne_II said:
tonyrey

**My only reservation is that not all atheism is wilful. I think much is due to being brainwashed by propaganda on the part of academics like Dawkins who abuse their prominence in society. **

Scientism in a tizzy. :D.
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Their convolutions make one dizzy! 🙂
 
tonyrey said:
👍 A fine answer. My only reservation is that not all atheism is wilful. I think much is due to being brainwashed by propaganda on the part of academics like Dawkins who abuse their prominence in society.
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I am french. In france, we have the state separated from the church. I wasn’t baptized because my parents weren’t catholics. They are agnostic and each time I asked a question about God, they were telling me what other people thought of it and that I had to decide by myself. Since the church is not very powerful in France, there is no opposition to the church (except in times like today because of the law on gay marriage being voted as we speak). There is no french Dawkins. When I was a teenager, I had never met any hardcore atheist, in fact, most people don’t care. I was never pushed in any direction for what I believed.

Though, one day, I started to wonder what I believed. I thought the personnal God described in the Bible made no sense and declared myself an atheist. Then a few years later, I took a look into micro-biology and the complexity of life turned me into a deist for a while. Now, after a lot of thinking and an even further look into biology, I reached equilibrium and am an open-minded agnostic.

Would you say I was brainwashed to turn into an atheist ? I wasn’t. I just grew up free of strong spiritual influence, one way or another, and made up my own mind. Sure, I evolved past that, but I would never say that any atheist is an idiot and should turn deist, then agnostic. Everyone is different. It is too easy and dangerous to decide that anyone disagreeing is either insane or brainwashed.

EDIT: And before you claim I was brainwashed because french society is atheist: again, nobody was telling me there was no God. French society is “laic”, which seems to be translated as secular in english. It just means that religion and spirituality is not on the program. You can talk and discuss it, but most of the time it isn’t even brought up: religious people pray in churches, non religious don’t and everyone live his life.
 
Fomalhaut said:
I am french. In france, we have the state separated from the church. I wasn’t baptized because my parents weren’t catholics. They are agnostic and each time I asked a question about God, they were telling me what other people thought of it and that I had to decide by myself. Since the church is not very powerful in France, there is no opposition to the church (except in times like today because of the law on gay marriage being voted as we speak). There is no french Dawkins. When I was a teenager, I had never met any hardcore atheist, in fact, most people don’t care. I was never pushed in any direction for what I believed.

Though, one day, I started to wonder what I believed. I thought the personnal God described in the Bible made no sense and declared myself an atheist. Then a few years later, I took a look into micro-biology and the complexity of life turned me into a deist for a while. Now, after a lot of thinking and an even further look into biology, I reached equilibrium and am an open-minded agnostic.

Would you say I was brainwashed to turn into an atheist ? I wasn’t. I just grew up free of strong spiritual influence, one way or another, and made up my own mind. Sure, I evolved past that, but I would never say that any atheist is an idiot and should turn deist, then agnostic. Everyone is different. It is too easy and dangerous to decide that anyone disagreeing is either insane or brainwashed.

EDIT: And before you claim I was brainwashed because french society is atheist: again, nobody was telling me there was no God. French society is “laic”, which seems to be translated as secular in english. It just means that religion and spirituality is not on the program. You can talk and discuss it, but most of the time it isn’t even brought up: religious people pray in churches, non religious don’t and everyone live his life.
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Over here in America, the airwaves are saturated with folks calling people they disagree with politically either an idiot, insane, or brainwashed. So that’s my excuse for getting caught up in it. Little by little, day by day, year by year, I would tune in to this stuff when I was in the car. Pretty soon, I was talking just like them. But I was the one getting brainwashed. So now I treat myself to classical music when I’m driving. But this is the essence of ad hominem (i.e., it may add heat but it adds nothing to logical arguement). And for us Catholics (and everyone really), Jesus warns against this. “You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, “You shall not murder”, and “whoever murders shall be liable to judgement.” But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say “You fool”, you will be liable to the hell of fire.” (Mt 5:21-22)
 
Fomalhaut said:
I am french. In france, we have the state separated from the church. I wasn’t baptized because my parents weren’t catholics. They are agnostic and each time I asked a question about God, they were telling me what other people thought of it and that I had to decide by myself. Since the church is not very powerful in France, there is no opposition to the church (except in times like today because of the law on gay marriage being voted as we speak). There is no french Dawkins. When I was a teenager, I had never met any hardcore atheist, in fact, most people don’t care. I was never pushed in any direction for what I believed.

Though, one day, I started to wonder what I believed. I thought the personnal God described in the Bible made no sense and declared myself an atheist. Then a few years later, I took a look into micro-biology and the complexity of life turned me into a deist for a while. Now, after a lot of thinking and an even further look into biology, I reached equilibrium and am an open-minded agnostic.

Would you say I was brainwashed to turn into an atheist ? I wasn’t. I just grew up free of strong spiritual influence, one way or another, and made up my own mind. Sure, I evolved past that, but I would never say that any atheist is an idiot and should turn deist, then agnostic. Everyone is different. It is too easy and dangerous to decide that anyone disagreeing is either insane or brainwashed.

EDIT: And before you claim I was brainwashed because french society is atheist: again, nobody was telling me there was no God. French society is “laic”, which seems to be translated as secular in english. It just means that religion and spirituality is not on the program. You can talk and discuss it, but most of the time it isn’t even brought up: religious people pray in churches, non religious don’t and everyone live his life.
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Typiquement logique. 🙂

Bienvenu au forum!
 
miguel said:
Over here in America, the airwaves are saturated with folks calling people they disagree with politically either an idiot, insane, or brainwashed. So that’s my excuse for getting caught up in it. Little by little, day by day, year by year, I would tune in to this stuff when I was in the car. Pretty soon, I was talking just like them. But I was the one getting brainwashed. So now I treat myself to classical music when I’m driving. But this is the essence of ad hominem (i.e., it may add heat but it adds nothing to logical arguement). And for us Catholics (and everyone really), Jesus warns against this. “You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, “You shall not murder”, and “whoever murders shall be liable to judgement.” But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say “You fool”, you will be liable to the hell of fire.” (Mt 5:21-22)
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A salutary lesson for everyone… 🙂
 
**Pope Benedict XVI gave an address **on the occasion of his receiving an honorary doctorate in Theology by the Theological Faculty of Wroclaw/Breslau. The overall topic is faith and theology but it addresses many things that you appear to wish to discuss * in your topic here.
In reality, for the believing Christian the words “I believe” articulate a particular kind of certainty — one that is in many respects a higher degree of certainty than that of science yet one that does indeed carry within it the dynamic of “shadow and image”, the dynamic of the “not yet”.
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Hope you enjoy it.

dj*
 
djeter said:
**Pope Benedict XVI gave an address **on the occasion of his receiving an honorary doctorate in Theology by the Theological Faculty of Wroclaw/Breslau. The overall topic is faith and theology but it addresses many things that you appear to wish to discuss * in your topic here.Hope you enjoy it.

dj*
Thanks, dj, for a superb analysis of the tension between the certainty of faith and the uncertainty of reason which is vital for our spiritual development. The Pope has decisively refuted the objections to theology and philosophy in establishing a rational foundation for our Christian beliefs.
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Fomalhaut said:
I.
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A very good friend of mine is from France, and he has much the same upbringing as you!

He told me they have a saying in French that is something along the lines of “if a Jesuit say do this, do the opposite?” He may just be saying that because he knows much of what I read, is from Jesuit thought 😉

Many of the virtues he holds to, charity, love, compassion, helping your neighbor, etc… Have their origins in Christianity!

What is the grounds for all belief is what I would ask you!

I’m speaking upon epistemology of course, I can’t see a tenable one outside of the transcendent!
 
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