What do you make of this Benedict XVI and Vatican II

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The new rite took most of the elements (entrance process, offertory process, different canons, sign of peace of the laity) from the so called Gallican rite, present is the first half of the second millennium, and banished by pope St Pius V.
I’m not getting to a discussion of whether elements of the Novus Ordo came from the Gallican Rite, but there certainly were elements of the Gallican Rite that had been incorporated in the Missal of Pius V and were summarily totally abandoned by the Novus Ordo.

As for the Gallican Rite having been “banished” by Pius V, no, not quite. The Gallican Rite itself had fallen out of use more than 200 years prior to Trent. It, along with other such Rite, were suppressed in order that they not be revived without the specific approval of Rome.
 
Ten years after the Council, Cardinal Ratzinger had the following sad commentary on its implementation (“Ratzinger Report,” p. 29-30), “It is incontestable that the last ten years have been decidedly unfavorable for the Catholic Church. Developments since the Council seem to be in striking contrast to the expectations of all, beginning with those of John XXIII and Paul VI… What the Popes and the Council Fathers were expecting was a new Catholic unity, and instead one has encountered a dissension which — to use the words of Paul VI — seems to have passed over from self-criticism to self-destruction. There had been the expectation of a new enthusiasm, and instead too often it has ended in boredom and discouragement. There had been the expectation of a step forward, and instead one found oneself facing a progressive process of decadence that to a large measure has been unfolding under the sign of a summons to a presumed ‘spirit of the Council’ and by so doing has actually and increasingly discredited it.”
It might make some speechless to the point of not even responding, but there is only one good enough response to this and that is just simply that Vatican II was all in good purpose, but sadly, it crashed! lol

Hmm, that was cruel. 😃
 
How can anyone say the so called ‘spirit’ of Vatican II didn’t hurt the Church. What bubble are you all in?
 
Ten years after the Council, Cardinal Ratzinger had the following sad commentary on its implementation (“Ratzinger Report,” p. 29-30), “It is incontestable that the last ten years have been decidedly unfavorable for the Catholic Church. Developments since the Council seem to be in striking contrast to the expectations of all, beginning with those of John XXIII and Paul VI… What the Popes and the Council Fathers were expecting was a new Catholic unity, and instead one has encountered a dissension which — to use the words of Paul VI — seems to have passed over from self-criticism to self-destruction. There had been the expectation of a new enthusiasm, and instead too often it has ended in boredom and discouragement. There had been the expectation of a step forward, and instead one found oneself facing a progressive process of decadence that to a large measure has been unfolding under the sign of a summons to a presumed ‘spirit of the Council’ and by so doing has actually and increasingly discredited it.”
Well, I don’t think it’s wise to blame the spotless Bride of Christ for the various problems. The Pope is the real Pope. The Bishops are real Bishops. The Council was a real Council.

I don’t know what kinds of things have been justified by the term “spirit of the council”, but I don’t think that it’s right or good to blame the council for what some would call the “infidelities” of some of her ministers.

One thing that we should take note of is the fact that the nations of the world have stepped away from Christianity and moved strongly toward a secular relativism, imo. Should we blame the Bride of Christ for the apostasy of the nations? No.

Take a look at what television and the internet have done to us: near occasions of sin are placed in every home simply by turning on the tv and/or surfing the net. Everywhere you look there is a half-naked woman holding some item that some faceless corporation wants you to buy so as to increase their profits.

Distractions are everywhere, and we’re surrounded on all sides by the images of the love of money, sex, and power. And some Catholics want to blame the Catholic Church…

I don’t really know what the real causes of the problems are, but I assure you that the Bride of Christ isn’t one of them.
 
Well, I don’t think it’s wise to blame the spotless Bride of Christ for the various problems. The Pope is the real Pope. The Bishops are real Bishops. The Council was a real Council.
It seems to help if you keep repeating this in your head again and again while reading up on the subject.
 
The sad part is this quote isn’t a joke…
😦
Hmm, the worst part yet is that those who haven’t researched the subject will see Catholics saying such negative things about Vatican II and think “wow, was it really that bad?” but they will never see the missunderstood interpretations that have caused this rebellion.

Catholics should think before bellowing out such craziness about it.
 
…What the Popes and the Council Fathers were expecting was a new Catholic unity, and instead one has encountered a dissension which — to use the words of Paul VI — seems to have passed over from self-criticism to self-destruction…
The dissident forces of self-destruction seems to be a result of what Pope Benedict XVI called the “hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture.”

Instead, the Pope teaches that we need to understand Vatican II as it truly was, with a hermeneutic of continuity. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote: “The one way in which Vatican II can be made plausible is to present it as it is; one part of the unbroken, the unique Tradition of the Church and of her faith.” (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the CDF, given July 13, 1988, in Santiago, Chile before that nation’s bishops).

Pope Benedict XVI described post-Vatican II in the following manner:
…*** What has been the result of the Council?*** Was it well received? What, in the acceptance of the Council, was good and what was inadequate or mistaken? What still remains to be done? No one can deny that in vast areas of the Church the implementation of the Council has been somewhat difficult, even without wishing to apply to what occurred in these years the description that St Basil, the great Doctor of the Church, made of the Church’s situation after the Council of Nicea: he compares her situation to a naval battle in the darkness of the storm, saying among other things: “The raucous shouting of those who through disagreement rise up against one another, the incomprehensible chatter, the confused din of uninterrupted clamouring, has now filled almost the whole of the Church, falsifying through excess or failure the right doctrine of the faith…” (*De Spiritu Sancto, *XXX, 77; PG 32, 213 A; SCh 17 ff., p. 524).

We do not want to apply precisely this dramatic description to the situation of the post-conciliar period, yet something from all that occurred is nevertheless reflected in it. The question arises: Why has the implementation of the Council, in large parts of the Church, thus far been so difficult?

Well, it all depends on the correct interpretation of the Council or - as we would say today - on its proper hermeneutics, the correct key to its interpretation and application. The problems in its implementation arose from the fact that two contrary hermeneutics came face to face and quarrelled with each other. ***One caused confusion, the other, silently but more and more visibly, bore and is bearing fruit. ***On the one hand, there is an interpretation that I would call “a hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture”; it has frequently availed itself of the sympathies of the mass media, and also one trend of modern theology. On the other, there is the "hermeneutic of reform", of renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given to us. She is a subject which increases in time and develops, yet always remaining the same, the one subject of the journeying People of God.

The hermeneutic of discontinuity risks ending in a split between the pre-conciliar Church and the post-conciliar Church. It asserts that the texts of the Council as such do not yet express the true spirit of the Council…

The hermeneutic of discontinuity is countered by the hermeneutic of reform
, as it was presented first by Pope John XXIII in his Speech inaugurating the Council on 11 October 1962 and later by Pope Paul VI in his Discourse for the Council’s conclusion on 7 December 1965.

Here I shall cite only John XXIII’s well-known words, which unequivocally express this hermeneutic when he says that the Council wishes “to transmit the doctrine, pure and integral, without any attenuation or distortion”. And he continues: “Our duty is not only to guard this precious treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us…”. It is necessary that “adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness…” be presented in “faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another…”, retaining the same meaning and message (*The Documents of Vatican II, *Walter M. Abbott, S.J., p. 715).
source]
 
The real question should be: do the documents of the XXI Ecumenical council support the following development, the so called ‘Spirit’ of Vatican II?

The answer to this question is no.

The XXI Ecumenical council redefined the Concept of the Church under the hierarchy. Abusing the Spirit of Vatican II either liberal or traditionalist laymen believe that they are the appointed judges.

The XXI Ecumenical council ordered only minor changes related to the liturgy, most of them accomplished by 1967 (adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html and adoremus.org/TresAbhinc.html) abusing the spirit of Vatican II the self appointed judges either rewrite everything or deny the legality of any change.

The XXI Ecumenical council acted under the strict guidance of the Holy Spirit on the same way as the previous 20 Ecumenical councils did. It helped the church. The abusive human pride, the self appointed rulemakers and judges make the harm.
Please note that our Holy Father speaks of
**a presumed ‘spirit of the Council’ **, not of the
“Spirit of Vatican II” that you noted.

He states clearly that the high expectations have not been met;
he does not disregard the expectations as futile or unworthy.
 
In the end, I wonder who did the most damage to the Church?

Those who disregarded the actual reforms of the XXI Ecumenical council (the so-called “letter of Vatican II”) for their own personal desires (the so-called “spirit of Vatican II”)?

Those who fled the Church due to the mounting troubles? Those who stayed but lacked the courage to get involved and hold the line when the Church embarked into a fairly rough period depriving the Church of their good prayers and other good actions?

Those who reacted to the “spirit of Vatican II” by defining their own countermeasures of what they feel good and bad, better or worse and ultimately allowed or not allowed? Not per the Church per se but to their own privately held beliefs?
 
You may be right there.

ecclesiadei.nl/docs/timeline.html

But why the hangup with vernacular? Many people happened to follow the Mass even though it wasn’t in their home-taught language.
No hang-up with the vernacular. I’m just pointing out that the Mass would have been celebrated in the early church in the vernacular. The vernacular was always supported in the East as well. The Mass was also celebrated typically on top of a simple table or even a gravestone and not on a grand shelf-like furnishing bolted to the wall. The priest would have been facing the other faithful who might have even been seated or standing around the altar. They likely would have received communion under both kinds, the Precious Blood direct from the chalice. The vestments of the early church would have looked far more like those of today and far less like the lacey/fiddlebacked vestments of more recent times.
 
No hang-up with the vernacular. I’m just pointing out that the Mass would have been celebrated in the early church in the vernacular. The vernacular was always supported in the East as well. The Mass was also celebrated typically on top of a simple table or even a gravestone and not on a grand shelf-like furnishing bolted to the wall. The priest would have been facing the other faithful who might have even been seated or standing around the altar. They likely would have received communion under both kinds, the Precious Blood direct from the chalice. The vestments of the early church would have looked far more like those of today and far less like the lacey/fiddlebacked vestments of more recent times.
You may find the following quotes insightful.
Consider, for example, what Louis Bouyer has to say on the subject: “The idea that a celebration facing the people must have been the primitive one, and that especially of the last supper, has no other foundation than a mistaken view of what a meal could be in antiquity, Christian or not. In no meal of the early Christian era, did the president of the banqueting assembly ever face the other participants. They were all sitting, or reclining, on the convex side of a C-shaped table, or of a table having approximately the shape of a horse shoe. The other side was always left empty for the service. Nowhere in Christian antiquity, could have arisen the idea of having to ‘face the people’ to preside at a meal. The communal character of a meal was emphasized just by the opposite disposition: the fact that all the participants were on the same side of the table” (pp.53-54). The Spirit of the Liturgy, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. (pg. 78)
The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself. The common turning toward the east was not a “celebration toward the wall”; it did not mean that the priest “had his back to the people”: the priest himself was not regarded as so important. For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian liturgy the congregation looked together “toward the Lord”. As one of the fathers of Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy, J.A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession toward the Lord. They did not close themselves into a circle; they did not gaze at one another; but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens, for the Christ who comes to meet us. The Spirit of the Liturgy, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (pg. 80)
 
I have often heard this in defense of V2, but does history really show us that? I am really asking the question, I dont know I just know that it is something people say and others nod their heads… After say, the council of nicea was there a shift of taking the creed too far?

It interests me. Sometimes I think it is just a way to excuse some inexcusable things.
Hey Potato.

I think you’re on to something. I even used to say it because I heard it and it sounds smart. But I never myself knew or heard heard of proponents of the theory explain how all Ecumenical Councils result in chaos that cause the kind of dismay that Cardinal Ratzinger expressed in the Ratzinger Report. Was Trent hard to understand? Vatican I? I have read those brief, clear, concise documents and cannot imagine how anybody who cared couldn’t figure out what they say. Those authoritative words settled controversies. Vatican II on the other hand is verbose and meandering. Small surprise they have been a cause of controversy and division in the Church.
 
Not really spelling, the basic elements of the Tridentine mass were in place by the 6th century, which is still the early church. Read the Gelasian and Leonine Sacramentaries, they contain the Roman Canon virtually inchanged.
 
Not really spelling, the basic elements of the Tridentine mass were in place by the 6th century, which is still the early church. Read the Gelasian and Leonine Sacramentaries, they contain the Roman Canon virtually inchanged.
Actually it was later than the 6th century. Either way the “early church” is generally defined as the first two hundred years after Pentecost.
 
Ten years after the Council, Cardinal Ratzinger had the following sad commentary on its implementation (“Ratzinger Report,” p. 29-30), “It is incontestable that the last ten years have been decidedly unfavorable for the Catholic Church. Developments since the Council seem to be in striking contrast to the expectations of all, beginning with those of John XXIII and Paul VI… What the Popes and the Council Fathers were expecting was a new Catholic unity, and instead one has encountered a dissension which — to use the words of Paul VI — seems to have passed over from self-criticism to self-destruction. There had been the expectation of a new enthusiasm, and instead too often it has ended in boredom and discouragement. There had been the expectation of a step forward, and instead one found oneself facing a progressive process of decadence that to a large measure has been unfolding under the sign of a summons to a presumed ‘spirit of the Council’ and by so doing has actually and increasingly discredited it.”
I think he summed pretty well here. I think everyone can see what is happened to the Holy Church. Going from divisions to waterdown the Liturgy to mix Faith. Catholics cannot even differenciate themselves from protestants anymore. Sad, sad…
 
Here’s some futher context with regard to what Cardinal Ratzinger has said about Vatican II, as distinct from the so-called “spirit of Vatican II”:
As I shall explain in great detail, my diagnosis is that we are dealing with an authentic crisis and that it must be treated and cured. Thus, I confirm that even for this healing process, Vatican II is a reality that must be fully accepted. On condition, however, that it must not be viewed as merely a point of departure from which one gets further away by running forward, but as a base on which to build solidly… Hence it is obvious that return to the documents [of Vatican II] is of special importance at the present time: they give us the right instrument with which to face the problems of our day. We are summoned to reconstruct the Church, not despite, but *thanks *to the true Council…

[This true Council] already during its session and then increasingly in the subsequent period, was opposed by a sef-styled 'spirit of the Council’, which in reality is a true ‘anti-spirit’ of the Council. According to this pernicious anti-spirit, everything that is ‘new’ (or presumed such: how many old heresies have surfaced again in recent years that have been presented as something new!) is always and in every case better than what has been or what is."

[Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, *The Ratziner Report
]
 
I would need to read this in context as I do not really think that he is talking about the “Spirit of Vatican II” in this quote.

So while I do believe that the “Spirit of Vatican II” has caused harm to the Church I did not vote in this poll as I do not think the quote is speaking of this.
 
The real question should be: do the documents of the XXI Ecumenical council support the following development, the so called ‘Spirit’ of Vatican II?

The answer to this question is no.

The XXI Ecumenical council redefined the Concept of the Church under the hierarchy. Abusing the Spirit of Vatican II either liberal or traditionalist laymen believe that they are the appointed judges.

The XXI Ecumenical council ordered only minor changes related to the liturgy, most of them accomplished by 1967 (adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html and adoremus.org/TresAbhinc.html) abusing the spirit of Vatican II the self appointed judges either rewrite everything or deny the legality of any change.

The XXI Ecumenical council acted under the strict guidance of the Holy Spirit on the same way as the previous 20 Ecumenical councils did. It helped the church. The abusive human pride, the self appointed rulemakers and judges make the harm.
I agree wholly with the above observation.
 
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