What do you make of this rabbi's comment?

[momor]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

Am I wrong that God was referring to the presence of the 3 persons of God? Does anyone know of any Catholic church teachings on this verse?

 

[jakasaki]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.** The rabbi said God was referring to the angels.** Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

Am I wrong that God was referring to the presence of the 3 persons of God? Does anyone know of any Catholic church teachings on this verse?

Have this rabbi show you there it is written that “”"God was referring to the angels."""

I never heard of that explaination, but hey, I don’t know everything.

And remember, you are a Catholic talking to a Jew.

They have their traditions and explainations. The Holy Trinity means nothing to them.

 

[jakasaki]

I was thinking about some other stuff after I posted my reply.

The same can be said when God appeared to Abraham, with 2 other.

Why would God travel or appear with 2 other? Bodyguards??? I think not!!!

It’s in Genesis 18 - it’s in there and I remember that one.
I looked it up for you.

The Three Visitors

**1The Lord appeared to Abraham **near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.

2Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

3He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,a do not pass your servant by.

4Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.

5Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant. “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”

6So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahsb of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread.”

7Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it.

8He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

9“Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said.

10Then the Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”

Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.

11Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing.

12So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my masterd is old, will I now have this pleasure?”

13Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’

14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.”

15Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”

 

[Dokimas]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

Am I wrong that God was referring to the presence of the 3 persons of God? Does anyone know of any Catholic church teachings on this verse?

I’m not a catholic; I believe the Gen 1:26 verse is about the Godhead. We were made in God’s image. We are body, soul and spirit. Makes sense that God is Three in One.

 

[sablouwho]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

I’m a Jewish convert myself. The rabbi sounds to be in keeping with Jewish thinking on the issue, at least as far as I know, as I’ve heard this explanation before. It’s unfortunate that the rabbi’s comments were “disparaging” as you say, against the Trinity. Though I can tell you that I know all too well from personal experience how very threatening and scary the Jesus/Christianity proposition can be to a person of Jewish lineage. It can seem, from that perspective, as if your soul is being murdered.

 

[momor]

I’m a Jewish convert myself. The rabbi sounds to be in keeping with Jewish thinking on the issue, at least as far as I know, as I’ve heard this explanation before. It’s unfortunate that the rabbi’s comments were “disparaging” as you say, against the Trinity. Though I can tell you that I know all too well from personal experience how very threatening and scary the Jesus/Christianity proposition can be to a person of Jewish lineage. It can seem, from that perspective, as if your soul is being murdered.

Thanks for your perspective as a Jewish convert. Can you explain more about what you meant by "your soul is being murdered’?

Also what is the Jewish perspective on Abraham and the 3 Visitors mentioned by jakasaki in post #3?

 

[juliamajor]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

Am I wrong that God was referring to the presence of the 3 persons of God? Does anyone know of any Catholic church teachings on this verse?

I believe the term used is “elohim” which has multiple meanings in Hebrw. Can mean the “royal” us- or can mean the angels,God and his fellow gods, a kind of God as ceo and board of directors.Scripture verses can have multiple meanings if you look at it from different angles.That the rabbi was “disparaging” is no surprise. That line of thought of a triune God is completely not in their way of thinking.It is a completly foreign idea.

 

[SunnaB16]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

Up to a point, the angels are created in Gods image. God is Spirit: so are the angels. A spirit is just intellect and will, and doesnt occupy 3-dimensional space. The same thing with our own immortal spiritual soul.

But, Genesis goes a step further when is says: “…Male and female He created THEM.” (end of verse 27).
The Blessed Trinity is The Divine Family. The Love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. The love between husband and wife brings forth children. So, the family should be a reflection of the inner Life of God.

Father and Son and Holy Spirit are Three Divine Persons (or Principles), but one God.
Husband and wife come together: the two become one. A third (children) results. The two become one, become three, and yet remain one; ie the family. Genesis 2:24 says it all: “Therefore, a man leaves his father and his mother, and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” Awesome!

Its not a matter of projecting marital imagery onto God: its the other way around. We`re projecting “God imagery” onto marrriage and family life.

We have to take into account our own limited nature.

 

[mark_a]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

You know, I find the Catholic dogma of the Trinity much more difficult to accept than say the Marian dogmas, the hypostatic union, the teachings about contraception, etc.

In fact, the beauty of these teachings help me accept the teaching about the Blessed Trinity. Just my two cents.

 

[sablouwho]

Also what is the Jewish perspective on Abraham and the 3 Visitors mentioned by jakasaki in post #3?

Sorry, I honestly don’t know. Wish I could be of more help here.

Thanks for your perspective as a Jewish convert. Can you explain more about what you meant by "your soul is being murdered’?

Happy to share with you on that.

As for the “soul being murdered”, this is my own way of putting it (and I admit it is rather strong) so please know that I am not claiming that anyone else has said it in exactly those words.

Belief in Jesus is can feel like a betrayal of ones very core identity as a Jew, even if one wasn’t religious (as I wasn’t–I didn’t even believe in God.) Honestly, the idea can be repugnant. Like spiritual rape. This is very very hard for me to explain in a message board setting. But it can feel like faith in Jesus would somehow “kill” the Jewish identity, a very central part of a person’s self-concept. Because of this it took a lot of thinking, reading apologetics, and praying, in order for me to convert. (And this is from someone who’d had very positive experiences being around Catholics since the time I was a small child.)

The only analogy I can think of (and it is probably not a good one at that) which might perhaps help you is this–imagine being forced to get a sex change. I am female and being a woman is an inseparable part of my identity–I cannot imagine being anything else, and I don’t want to be anything else. (And I don’t in any way mean that to sound like male-bashing, it’s not, I promise!) To became a male, it seems, goes against my very nature, the core of my being–because I am not just a human, I am also a female, and my gender identification is a very deep part of my psychological makeup. If I were to be made into a male I think I would feel lost and not know who I was.

So, going back to the rabbi for a moment. The idea of a Trinitarian God just goes against what a faithful Jew believes (in earnest) to be the Truth about God’s nature. It’s unsettling. And it can be hard from a Jewish perspective to see this other religion (Christianity), claiming your own sacred scripture as its own spiritual heritage, and then (from the Jewish perspective) reading things into that scripture (such as the Trinity) that is a Jew earnestly believes is just not there.

I am so sorry, I feel like I am doing a poor job explaining this. Let me know if you have more questions and I will try to help. Just know, though, that aside from religious training as a youngster, I was not an observant Jew so I am somewhat limited in my ability to answer questions. (But I do know of resources filled with people who can–other Jews who are now Catholic or Christian).

 

[sablouwho]

That the rabbi was “disparaging” is no surprise. That line of thought of a triune God is completely not in their way of thinking.It is a completly foreign idea.

It is a completely foreign idea, to be sure.

It is too bad the rabbi was disparaging, though.

 

[anode]

I believe the term used is “elohim” which has multiple meanings in Hebrw. Can mean the “royal” us- or can mean the angels,God and his fellow gods, a kind of God as ceo and board of directors.Scripture verses can have multiple meanings if you look at it from different angles.That the rabbi was “disparaging” is no surprise. That line of thought of a triune God is completely not in their way of thinking.It is a completly foreign idea.

The Catholic church outlawed the representation of the Trinity as 3 people in the Americas centuries ago. In colonial hispanic art in the Americas the Trinity was often represented in bizarre ways, as three people, also a three-headed person! The doctrine of the Trinity is represented as both three persons and one, not as three people standing there. Thus the reference to the three men in the story of Abraham would have to refer to three separate, distinct beings, not the Trinity.

 

[aspirant]

Am I wrong that God was referring to the presence of the 3 persons of God?

I don’t think it’s wrong to read the passage that way, but neither do I think the passage would be read this way without the light of New Testament revelation.

Belief in Jesus is can feel like a betrayal of ones very core identity as a Jew, even if one wasn’t religious

To give a concrete example how belief in Jesus tends to be perceived among Jews:

The Israeli Law of Return allows Jews, people of Jewish ancestry, and their spouses the right to migrate to and settle in Israel and gain citizenship.

As I understand it, this has historically included nonreligious/secular Jews, but not Jews who have become “Messianic Jews,” even if the latter still considered themselves Jewish by religion.

In other words, a Jew who does not believe in God at all is still a Jew, but a Jew who believes in Jesus is not a Jew, even if he still considers Judaism his religion.

The Catholic church outlawed the representation of the Trinity as 3 people in the Americas centuries ago.

This may be so, but interpreting Abraham’s visitors at Mamre as a foreshadowing of the revelation of the Trinity is an ancient Catholic tradition mentioned, for example, in the writings of Pope John Paul II: “The visit of the three mysterious persons, whom the Fathers of the Church interpreted as a prefiguration of the Trinity, announced the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham…” Icons of the “Hospitality of Abraham” are often, for this reason, alternately called “Old Testament Trinity.”

 

[bpbasilphx]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

The Tiber remains as dry as ever, I’m sure.

 

[peary1]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity. I asked him, if there is no Trinity, how do you explain the reference to us and our in Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The rabbi said God was referring to the angels. Not that the angels were co-creators with God but that God was simply including them in His work of creation.

Am I wrong that God was referring to the presence of the 3 persons of God? Does anyone know of any Catholic church teachings on this verse?

No, you are not wrong. The Trinity is pre-figured in Genesis 1:26. There is nothing in the Bible that in any way indicates that God was referring to angels because the next verses explain that God was not referring to angels: Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness… God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:26; 27) Angels are not divine; they are immortal, yes, but they are part of another creation realm, and they are not male-female, as are human beings. The rabbi is wrong.

 

[grace_singh]

Sablouwho ~

actually sister, you explain that really, really well. it’s like there’s this huge wall in your heart, and it feels like there’s no way it can come down. and that accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour or on par with God would be the craziest, least intuitive, least natural thing for you to do. like asking a duck to turn into a walrus.

there are many Messianic passages in the Hebrew Scriptures which prophecy that the Messiah will be God Himself, incarnate. and a number of Torah commentators have hinted the belief and understanding that Messiah is / will be eternal, like God, the same as God, or in some other way not only a human man.

truthnet.org/TheMessiah/7_Messiah_Objections_Isaiah/

 

[BernadetteM]

Sorry, I honestly don’t know. Wish I could be of more help here.

Happy to share with you on that.

As for the “soul being murdered”, this is my own way of putting it (and I admit it is rather strong) so please know that I am not claiming that anyone else has said it in exactly those words.

Belief in Jesus is can feel like a betrayal of ones very core identity as a Jew, even if one wasn’t religious (as I wasn’t–I didn’t even believe in God.) Honestly, the idea can be repugnant. Like spiritual rape. This is very very hard for me to explain in a message board setting. But it can feel like faith in Jesus would somehow “kill” the Jewish identity, a very central part of a person’s self-concept. Because of this it took a lot of thinking, reading apologetics, and praying, in order for me to convert. (And this is from someone who’d had very positive experiences being around Catholics since the time I was a small child.)

The only analogy I can think of (and it is probably not a good one at that) which might perhaps help you is this–imagine being forced to get a sex change. I am female and being a woman is an inseparable part of my identity–I cannot imagine being anything else, and I don’t want to be anything else. (And I don’t in any way mean that to sound like male-bashing, it’s not, I promise!) To became a male, it seems, goes against my very nature, the core of my being–because I am not just a human, I am also a female, and my gender identification is a very deep part of my psychological makeup. If I were to be made into a male I think I would feel lost and not know who I was.

So, going back to the rabbi for a moment. The idea of a Trinitarian God just goes against what a faithful Jew believes (in earnest) to be the Truth about God’s nature. It’s unsettling. And it can be hard from a Jewish perspective to see this other religion (Christianity), claiming your own sacred scripture as its own spiritual heritage, and then (from the Jewish perspective) reading things into that scripture (such as the Trinity) that is a Jew earnestly believes is just not there.

I am so sorry, I feel like I am doing a poor job explaining this. Let me know if you have more questions and I will try to help. Just know, though, that aside from religious training as a youngster, I was not an observant Jew so I am somewhat limited in my ability to answer questions. (But I do know of resources filled with people who can–other Jews who are now Catholic or Christian).

I have heard that when a Jew leaves the Jewish faith and becomes a Christian that the family has a funeral for the person. They are no longer alive in their eyes. A person I knew who belonged to my parish was Jewish and converted and told me his family had a funeral for him. Do you know if this is correct?

Actually I find many traditions from Judiasm very similar to some of our Catholic traditions. I think the Orthodox Jewish faith is very interesting.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[sablouwho]

actually sister, you explain that really, really well. it’s like there’s this huge wall in your heart, and it feels like there’s no way it can come down. and that accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour or on par with God would be the craziest, least intuitive, least natural thing for you to do. like asking a duck to turn into a walrus.

Thank you. I’m relieved that it made some sense. I didn’t want to misrepresent anything as it can be a touchy topic. I want to treat it carefully.

 

[sablouwho]

I have heard that when a Jew leaves the Jewish faith and becomes a Christian that the family has a funeral for the person. They are no longer alive in their eyes. A person I knew who belonged to my parish was Jewish and converted and told me his family had a funeral for him. Do you know if this is correct?

Bernadette,

I have indeed heard that a Jew who converts will be mourned by the family and in some cases will be treated as if they are dead (no contact with the family anymore). I don’t know if they actually hold a funeral though. In practice, I think it depends on how religiously observant the family is.

I seem to recall that there are other reasons that this could happen. If foggy memory serves there is a scene in the movie The Jazz Singer where the father tears at his clothes (this is a Jewish sign of mourning) upon learning that his son isn’t going to be a cantor and instead wants to be a secular singer instead. The father cuts off contact with the son for some time, but I think they eventually reconnect.

Going back to the funeral thingie for a moment–I am lucky in that my family did no such thing. But then, they are not Orthodox either, they’re mainly cultural Jews who celebrate a few holidays on the Jewish calendar and that’s pretty much the extent of it. (This has some similarities to Christians who show up at church only on Christmas and Easter.) My mom and I are very close and thankfully my becoming a Christian hasn’t changed our relationship. Granted, she doesn’t get why I believe as I do, but at least she didn’t stick her head in the oven upon learning of my new found faith either.

Hope that this answer has helped you a little bit!

Blessings,

Sablouwho

 

[puzzleannie]

A rabbi made a disparaging comment about Catholics believing in the Trinity.

you have not quoted his remark, nor put it in context, but neither have you demonstrated how his intent was to make a disparaging comment about Catholic beliefs, or Catholics themselves. If he merely stated the teachings of his own faith, he is not disparaging anyone, any more than we disparage Jews if we respond, when asked, with an honest accurate answer about our own beliefs.

Please clarify: did he directly disparage Catholics, or did he state the beliefs of his faith. It is important because as it stands it is an accusation against a leader of another faith.

also your thread title is no help, since you did not quote the actual comment