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rr1213
Guest
Please calm down. I am not trying to convert anybody. Also, obviously the thread has evolved, please read all of the posts.
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MariaG
Guest
AND?
How does this understanding change anything?
2606 All the troubles, for all time, of humanity enslaved by sin and death, all the petitions and intercessions of salvation history are summed up in this cry of the incarnate Word. Here the Father accepts them and, beyond all hope, answers them by raising his Son. Thus is fulfilled and brought to completion the drama of prayer in the economy of creation and salvation. The Psalter gives us the key to prayer in Christ. In the “today” of the Resurrection the Father says: "You are my Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession."62
The Letter to the Hebrews expresses in dramatic terms how the prayer of Jesus accomplished the victory of salvation: "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."63
62 Ps 2:7-8; cf. Acts 13:33.
63 Heb 5:7-9.
But what else scripture tell us? We are supposed pray for one another as Christians. This intercession for each other does not end but is only made better when we enter into the presence of Christ in heaven.
2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things."42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.
41 Cf. Heb 12:1.
42 Cf. Mt 25:21.
“Prayer” to Mary is not the same definition as prayer to God. Two separate and distinct things. When we cultivate a relationship with Mary, it is along the lines of cultivating a friendship with a seriously good Christian. It is in line with cultivating and surrounding ourselves with good Christian friends here on earth.
Christ is worshipped. Mary is not. Christ may be our friend, but He is also our Lord and Savior. Mary is neither.
These are two very different relationships. Mary, as a good Christian, does not encourage us to rely on her, but on her son. This is what Christians do for each other.
Our God is the God of the living.
God Bless,
Maria
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rr1213
Guest
I understand. I see how a Catholic differentiates between prayers to Mary vs. prayers to Christ. Assuming that Mary can hear our prayers (which I am unsure of), I suppose that asking her to pray for us is no different than asking a Christian friend on earth to pray for us assuming, also, that you do not stop going directly to God in prayer. Nonetheless, I am also afraid that many Catholics may blur the distinctions you’ve made above.
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MariaG
Guest
I too used to think that but whenever I get/got into longterm discussions (not just one time ones), when these people who I thought “appeared” to have too great a devotion to Mary and possibly crossed the line into worship, I realized that in fact they did have a solid foundation on Christ.
They just have gotten into alot of that flowery reading and poetry about Mary that can be misunderstood by those who cannot hear the thoughts of a persons heart.
But ultimately, I finally came to the conclusion that one can’t be afraid of things because of what I think might be happening in someone elses heart. I can only judge my own. I know the distinction is written on my heart and never gets blurred no matter how “emotional” I get with “my mother”.
I think appearances are decieving and there are very few, if any Catholics who blur those lines. I now believe that just as that line is drawn clearly in my heart, it is in others as well. I think that when you have not drawn the line yourself (or recognize the line that has been drawn by God?), it is harder to see if others have. I know I did not fully let go of my belief that many Catholics may blur this line until I had been praying about something for years. Years. And finally, one night in my room, I cried out and asked Mary to pray for me, that I could no longer do so. My prayer was answered very quickly and I came to see how Christ is pleased when people ask His mother to pray for them. God answered the prayer, but He is pleased to do so from the Prayers from Mary.
This also helped me see that my belief of what others may or may not be doing has no bearing on me, my walk or the teachings of the CAtholic Church, I mean just because a Catholic justifies murder does it mean the Catholic Church teaches it is okay to do it? Same thing.
Anyway, I do understand what you are saying. At one time I would have agreed with you. I in fact understand that you may have concerns, even after what I said that I am just like a frog who is boiling in water but doesn’t know it because it was so gradual
But I can only say that I know what I know to be true. Not a very good witness I know, but some people and things, God has to teach a person personally and outside witness will help little. I know that this issue was such a one for me.Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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rr1213
Guest
No, I don’t think that.I in fact understand that you may have concerns, even after what I said that I am just like a frog who is boiling in water but doesn’t know it because it was so gradual
You make some good points in your post. Sort of what is said in John 21, huh?
*20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”
22Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” *
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Veritas41
Guest
I don’t get to watch the Mass on EWTN every day, but I do enjoy it when I get to watch it. I just wish I could hear good preaching in the parish I attend --so far I’ve belonged to three parishes and haven’t heard consistently good preaching in any of themOoh you should watch the Daily Mass on EWTN.They are very reverant and the priests give good homilies. You can watch on the internet if you don’t have cable or a dish that has EWTN.
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Della
Guest
What matters is the truth, not whether or not people practice their devotion to Mary perfectly. None of us prays just as we should or loves just as we should or understands everything as well as we should, but God looks at the intentions of the heart, and if they are sincere, that is what matters to him.
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MariaG
Guest
I am glad, because I am not so sure I didn’t used to think that of peopleNo, I don’t think that.
You make some good points in your post. Sort of what is said in John 21, huh?
*20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” *
*22Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” *
But yes, I would say it was similar to that. We don’t need to concern ourselves with the sin (or possible sin) of others. God WILL take care of it. Just focus on Christ and keep walking forward
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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wcknight
Guest
And what is it that bugs you about Catholics who you think offer too much praise for Mary ??? No Catholic worships Mary as divine, and no Catholic places her above Jesus. My contention is that we don’t give her enough praise and attention.
Is it some sort of jealousy that make you wants folks to stop asking Mary for favors ? She just happens to be the one who raisesd Jesus as her own Son, which He was. Should He not honor her above everyone else, as any other loving Son ???
IS it the fact that we claim she is the Queen of Heaven or Queen of the Angels ?? maybe it is because we give her so many titles that we don’t appear to love God as much.
You have to ask yourself, IF you were a king or emperor, what titles and honors would you not bestow on your own mother ? IF you were God Almighty, as we all recognize Jesus to be would you not place your mother above all others ???
Here is the woman who raised you from a babe, loved you as no other mother has ever loved a Son, and suffered (yes she did indeed suffer watching her only Son get tortured and killed). What requests or honors would you withhold from her ???
Yes praying to Mary to ask for help is a “little” like asking a friend to pray for us. BUT the huge distinction is that Mary is indeed the Mother of Jesus, yes the one and only Mother of God. If I’m going to ask someone to do me a favor, and I know their mother fairly well, would I not be gaining a huge advantage to ask their mother to make the request.
IF you get two or more requests for assistance, would you answer the one from a friend or a stranger or would you honor the request from your own mother. IF you are any kind of Son, you can bet your life that most folks are going to honor the request from their mom.
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RNRobert
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And of course, Jesus is a good Jewish boy.
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whosebob
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JMJ + OBT
Hi, rr1213! I think I confused you with this statement:
It might have been clearer if I had originally written the part italicized above as,
“no created person will ever be closer to Him.”
I will explain, though, why I wrote what I wrote:
In Catholic theology there are understood to be only two categories of persons, broadly speaking. There are uncreated divine persons and there are created persons. There are Three Divine Persons – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – Who are One God. That’s the Mystery of the Trinity.
There are two types of created persons: (1) pure spirits, we generally call them angels; (2) corporeal persons who have material bodies and rational souls – us humans. If we ever meet any extraterrestrial creatures who exhibit rational souls, then we could include them too in this category as corporeal persons.
Jesus Christ is the Word, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity who assumed a human nature. From all eternity He is True God; and from the moment He became incarnate in the womb of Mary he was, is, and always shall be true man. This is the Mystery of the Incarnation, and we have a name for this joining of the human nature to the Divine Nature in the Second Person – we call it the hypostatic union. (See also Communication of Idioms.)
So Christ has two natures, but he is one divine person. Although we could, speaking loosely, describe Jesus a “human person” – and many Christians would understand you in an orthodox sense – doing so has been a no-no in Catholic parlance since the Ecumenical Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon. Doing so seems to invite mushy thinking: one the one hand it seems to lead easily to the idea that there is in Christ a humanity which enjoys some sort of personal or psychological autonomy apart from the Godhead in the Second Person; on the other hand, it seems to lead some people back to an informal embrace of the heresy that there are two persons in Christ, one divine and one human.
(continued below)
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whosebob
Guest
(continued from above)
Concerning the larger question as to whether Mary or the other Saints, or you and me for that matter, have any mediatory or intercessory role, we have to try and grasp the bigger picture of how the Redemption operates in the life of the Church and the individual lives of her members following the Descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
The following is surely true:
But there is more – the Saints and Angels in Heaven are involved too! The souls of the just live in God to worship Him, enjoy Him, and to intercede for those living on Earth until the close of history. Such intercession and mediation, in terms of favors granted and graces obtained through the prayers of the Saints according to God’s will, is secondary and subordinate to the unique Mediation and Intercession of Jesus Christ. But in the life of His Body, Christ has Himself arranged it that such a role for His heavenly members is indispensable in the life of His earthly members (and those in Purgatory). Coming back to my original point about Mary – she is the Saint closest to Jesus Christ in the order of Grace, and she is already resurrected and glorified in her body with Christ in Heaven. As the spiritual mother of all of Christ’s disciples, no one is a greater intercessor and mediator for the other members of the Mystical Body with the Head (Jesus) than Mary is.
In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
IC XC NIKA
Concerning the larger question as to whether Mary or the other Saints, or you and me for that matter, have any mediatory or intercessory role, we have to try and grasp the bigger picture of how the Redemption operates in the life of the Church and the individual lives of her members following the Descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
The following is surely true:
In Christ, God and man are one. And Christ now before God the Father pleads for men not only as Son of God but as a son of man, that is as a man Himself. Christ saved us with His body, that is He accomplished the objective Redemption with his with His human nature (i.e. His conception, birth, life, suffering, death, resurrection, ascension). And he saves us even now with His body, that is we enjoy the life of Grace (i.e. “subjective redemption” == justification, sanctification) with, in, and through His Mystical Body, the Church: we offer public corporate worship in Spirit and Truth; the very Life of God is communicated to us in the Sacraments; we are instructed in the Faith by His ministers; we receive and give material help, encouragement and prayer-support from and to our brothers and sisters in the Lord; and so forth. Does any of this mediation and intercession get in the way of the personal relationship formed between Christ and one of the members of His Body? No, not at all – in fact, it is the context in which such a personal relationship can truly blossom.
But there is more – the Saints and Angels in Heaven are involved too! The souls of the just live in God to worship Him, enjoy Him, and to intercede for those living on Earth until the close of history. Such intercession and mediation, in terms of favors granted and graces obtained through the prayers of the Saints according to God’s will, is secondary and subordinate to the unique Mediation and Intercession of Jesus Christ. But in the life of His Body, Christ has Himself arranged it that such a role for His heavenly members is indispensable in the life of His earthly members (and those in Purgatory). Coming back to my original point about Mary – she is the Saint closest to Jesus Christ in the order of Grace, and she is already resurrected and glorified in her body with Christ in Heaven. As the spiritual mother of all of Christ’s disciples, no one is a greater intercessor and mediator for the other members of the Mystical Body with the Head (Jesus) than Mary is.
In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
IC XC NIKA
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whosebob
Guest
JMJ + OBT
Thank you for your charitable and well thought-out posts, rr1213. Surely we will learn from you and you from us.
My question for you in light of your statement quoted above: Do you have that fear because you are pre-conditioned to have that fear, or because Catholics you know have spoken or behaved in such ways to suggest they really do blur those distinctions which MariaG made so well?
Living in the Southeastern USA, I have conversed over many years with many lifelong non-Catholic Christians who when they’ve encountered Catholic ritual and devotion are, based on what they’ve been taught, confirmed in their fears that “Catholics worship Mary” or some such thing. In reality, they may have been witness to some basic Catholic devotion like the Rosary or may have seen Catholic statuary in person and up close. But there was no need for these non-Catholic Christians to inquire as to whether the present Catholics had clear distinctions in their minds as to God, Mary, the Saints, and statues – they already “knew” all about it based on the misinformation they’d absorbed over the years. Am I making sense?
In Christ.
IC XC NIKA
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rr1213
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I’ve not seen worship of Mary by any of my Catholic friends. Over the years, I have seen and heard some pretty wild stuff on the internet and in relation to the Church in South and Central America.
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Veritas41
Guest
Every Catholic saint I’ve read about had a strong devotion to Mary, but was also completely Christ-centered and whole-heartedly devoted to Him. I’m reading a biography of John Paul II, *Witness to Hope, *and it says at one point in his life, JPII wanted to distance himself from some of the Marian piety he saw around him, seeking to be more Christ-centered. But over time he discovered that being devoted to Mary didn’t take away from Christ but actually helped him become *more *centered on Christ. If you read any of the writings of JPII, you will see how very Christ-centered he was in his thinking and outlook, while he also maintained a very deep devotion to Mary.
Why do some Catholics seem more devoted to Mary than Jesus? In the first place, it may only *seem *that way, and appearances can be deceiving. But another thing to keep in mind, something I learned when I was still evangelical Protestant, is that some people have a hard time relating to God the Father/Jesus because of having been physically/sexually abused by their fathers. One Baptist friend of mine confided that she struggled for years trying to relate to God because of sexual abuse she suffered at the hands of her earthly father. I think that may be why some Catholics seem to relate more to Mary --not that they are elevating Mary above Jesus, but for psychological reasons they can relate to her better.
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Mary3
Guest
Back to the original question. As others noted, I miss the music and singing.
I also miss the small community “feeling”. All of the Catholic parishes in my urban city are huge. I came from a small (200 member) protestant church where everybody knew everybody. It has been very hard to make close friendships in a parish of 5,000 where many people only attend a one-hour Mass on Sunday and you never see them at other times.
However, I’m ever grateful to have the fullness of faith. Would not go back for any reason!
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AlegreFe
Guest
Not as opposed to Mary, but along side to Mary. Jesus will never be opposed to Mary.
Since Jesus came to us through Mary, we can go to Jesus through Mary. But I say “through” for sake of conversation and to say that we can certainly go to Jesus through Mary. Jesus actually came to us OF Mary! :yup:
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AlegreFe
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AMEN to that!!
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AlegreFe
Guest
Mary can hear us but only because God gives her that power to hear us. Everything is because of God.
You assume correctly. We can pray to Mary as to ask her to pray for us. But as for myself, I also pray to Jesus Christ and to God the Father. I find myself mostly praying to Jesus Christ though.
I have a devotion to Mary also! I love and respect her as I know that she only wants us to know and love Jesus Christ. Any good Christian would want that for another fellow Christian!
I’m sure you want everyone to know and love Jesus Christ right? Of course! Well so does Mary! :yup:You do realize that Mary is actually the first Christian?!
Nothing blurry here!
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reborn_pagan
Guest
hate to butt in but i jst wanted to say this…
the evangelicals i know scare me…alot
the evangelicals i know scare me…alot
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