What do you think about Christian Zionism?

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bengal_fan said:
right, so when Jesus comes back, He will fully restore Israel. The U.S. won’t do it. the U.N. won’t do it. Israel can’t do it on it’s own. Jesus, the Messiah, will restore Israel. this is why zionism is wrong and Christian zionism is even more wrong. we know the name of the Messiah and yet we still don’t trust Him to fulfill His promises. we think we have to do it for Him. and in the process of “doing it for Him” we displace hundreds and thousands of people that He loves (even many who are His actual followers and are being betrayed by the church not supporting them, which is one of the biggest commands Jesus gave us… to love each other). suffering can definitely be good for us, so those palestinian Christians who are suffering are experiencing God in ways that we don’t get to, but when Christians are participating in the suffering of others, especially other Christians, i think God is going to have some harsh words for those people.
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Israel has many promises, for one that the Messiah, who we know as Jesus, will come from there. This promise has been given to the whole world. There is also the promise repeated over and over in scripture that Israel will be restored to the land. And I have stated over and over in this thread this will only come to pass when Jesus comes back. No one can help this move along but one can help fight against it. Fighting against this prophecy is foretold in scripture. Psalm 83:4

How can any Christian freely believe in the Promise of crucified Messiah to Israel and not believe the promise of restoration to Israel? Do we as Christians side with the world in judgeing Israel in worldy ways like Bishop Tutu is doing or do we ask God to bless Israel and teach them to turn from their ways and to call on the name of the Lord so they can recieve their Messiah, Jesus?
 
matt1985 said:
haaretz.com/hasen/spages/772882.html

I do not agree with Christian Zionism. No where did Jesus tell his followers to fight over the Holy Land. The Christian Zionists do not seem to preach a message of peace. They should work with the Israelis and Palestianians to find solutions instead of just supporting one side.
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The Dispensational reasons are wrong, but calling it Zionism is loaded. Israel is a sovereign nation. They are democratic and in an impossible situation. The Palestinians have acted like animals. The Israeli’s gave up Gaza and get a Hamas government elected in return. When that happened the Palestinians freely chose islamic terrorists to lead them. So while Israel is not perfect, they are generally in the right. There is no justification for suicide bombings.
 
bengal_fan said:
right, so when Jesus comes back, He will fully restore Israel. The U.S. won’t do it. the U.N. won’t do it. Israel can’t do it on it’s own. Jesus, the Messiah, will restore Israel. this is why zionism is wrong and Christian zionism is even more wrong. we know the name of the Messiah and yet we still don’t trust Him to fulfill His promises. we think we have to do it for Him. and in the process of “doing it for Him” we displace hundreds and thousands of people that He loves (even many who are His actual followers and are being betrayed by the church not supporting them, which is one of the biggest commands Jesus gave us… to love each other). suffering can definitely be good for us, so those palestinian Christians who are suffering are experiencing God in ways that we don’t get to, but when Christians are participating in the suffering of others, especially other Christians, i think God is going to have some harsh words for those people.
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Youn have your history wrong. First, it is done deal. Israel is a sovereign state and has been for 60 years. There are many countries that are newer with less international legality yet no one seems to care - it’s just the Jews who aren’t allowed a homeland - as they didn’t have one already. And no one was displaced by them, that is a myth. Three states were offered in this unruled land. Transjordan - a Palestinian state was created, and Israel was. The remaining Palestinians rejected the offer of statehood back then. Those who stayed were not displaced, they left before Israel was attacked by the Arab states who promised them it would be theirs when they won. Well, they did not win and those who left did so as an act of war and have no rights nor should they. Beyond that, most Arabs now called Palesitinians do not have roots their, they came for jobs when Israel became a nation and now are raised with a revisionist history and ignore the actual facts behind the Palestinian mandate. 12% of Israeli citizens are Arabs with full Parlamentary repesentation. Every Palestinian who lived there had the same offer in 1948. The smart ones took it.

As for the minority of Christians there, their suffering is caused by the muslims the live under not the Jews. Christians are not persecuted in Israel, but they suffer under the Muslims and many, sad to say, make common cause with them out of dhimmitude. Yet it was the Israeli government that feor decades preserved the Christian Holy sites, while the muslims desecrated them.

Further 600,000 middle eastern Jews were expelled from Arab countries at this time and had nowhere else to go. While the Arabs who hit the road to allow for a staging ground for an attack did so of their own free will.

What would be wrong is to take a sovereign nation away from it’s people (zionism does not factor in - they are there so it is irrelevent) and hand it over to become another terrorist state.
 
hamba2han said:
The Qur’an states that the Children of Israel were indeed the ‘chosen people’.
Snipped…
[In other words, Jews cannot continue to see themselves as the ‘chosen people’ and Israel as the most favored nation in the eyes of the Creator because this view is simply not supported in the Bible.
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**Hold a sec though, who are the children of Israel. in today’s Israel 85% or more of them are none eastern who are Europeans and Eurasian descendants and if one would done a NDA test the result would proof they are not from the linage from the Bait Israel or the children of Israel himself. though i hate using terms to describe people but those Jews who belong to this linage are the Edot HaMizrah, in other words, Jews who generally practise traditional Sephardic Judaism and have a heterogeneous origins from the the Arab world including the Yemenite, as well as other communities from other eastern countries such as Georgian Jews, Persian Jews, Bukharian Jews, and Jews, Indian Jews who originally immigrated with Al Futuhaat Al Islamiya.

I agree with you on the rest of your comments.**
[/quote]
 
Melchior said:
Youn have your history wrong. First, it is done deal. Israel is a sovereign state and has been for 60 years. There are many countries that are newer with less international legality yet no one seems to care - it’s just the Jews who aren’t allowed a homeland - as they didn’t have one already. And no one was displaced by them, that is a myth. Three states were offered in this unruled land. Transjordan - a Palestinian state was created, and Israel was. The remaining Palestinians rejected the offer of statehood back then. Those who stayed were not displaced, they left before Israel was attacked by the Arab states who promised them it would be theirs when they won. Well, they did not win and those who left did so as an act of war and have no rights nor should they. Beyond that, most Arabs now called Palesitinians do not have roots their, they came for jobs when Israel became a nation and now are raised with a revisionist history and ignore the actual facts behind the Palestinian mandate. 12% of Israeli citizens are Arabs with full Parlamentary repesentation. Every Palestinian who lived there had the same offer in 1948. The smart ones took it. This is propostrous to say the least and very twisted…!
As for the minority of Christians there, their suffering is caused by the muslims the live under not the Jews. Christians are not persecuted in Israel, but they suffer under the Muslims and many, sad to say, make common cause with them out of dhimmitude. Yet it was the Israeli government that feor decades preserved the Christian Holy sites, while the muslims desecrated them.

**Who keeps of the keys to the Kanisat AL Qiyamah “Church of the Holy Sepulchre” for the last 1300 years. Please stop making up lies it does reflect on you so badly. **

Further 600,000 middle eastern Jews were expelled from Arab countries at this time and had nowhere else to go. While the Arabs who hit the road to allow for a staging ground for an attack did so of their own free will.

What would be wrong is to take a sovereign nation away from it’s people (zionism does not factor in - they are there so it is irrelevent) and hand it over to become another terrorist state.
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**Facts, hard facts, please not mere empty words, do you know how many Arab Christian village is emptied by the IDF for security reasons, what rights do Arab Palestinian Christian have today…?
How many eastern churches have been leveled to the ground to make land for army posts and checkpoints…?

look and read what the partition wall is doing to the economy of Bethlehem…?

Hate to sound angry but I’m upset with your mere assumptions.
read what the Palestinian Arab Christians are saying to the world…sabeel.org/old/index.html

After that we can debate and meantime, please refrain from making up stories like that of “Unruled Land”…!**
 
Melchior said:
Youn have your history wrong.
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sorry, but you have yours wrong. people were displaced. the land that was offered them was different than the land they had been living on. this means they had to move from their homes. that is being displaced. the Christians over there are 3rd class citizens and tend to get more support from their Muslim neighbors than their Jewish ones. i’m speaking from knowing many (we’re talking around 100) families from over there and hearing their stories. my point is that there is room for everyone but Israel seems to want what they want and aren’t willing to compromise. they operate from a secular mindset so the topic of “God’s plan” shouldn’t enter into it until Jesus returns and HE establishes Israel, rebuilds the temple, etc. the Christians who are extremely vocal do it because they believe the sooner Israel is fully established, the sooner Jesus comes back. that is a false doctrine. yes, God promises the return of the remnant to Israel. He also promises that Israel will once again be one. but He promises that HE will do it in HIS time. that is the whole point. the state of Israel is completely secular (there are many believing Jewish people living there but it is a secular state) which keeps down an entire segment of their population because of heritage, and we support this… that is wrong. people have been displaced, but i do think it is time for everyone to move past the past and look toward the future and how this state can accommodate it’s citizens better (all of it’s citizens).
 
hamba2han said:
If Jews do not keep the covenant and make Israel into a “kingdom of priests and an holy nation”, then the punishment for the Jews is also stipulated in the Bible:
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To have priests they need the Temple. Thats not possible with the Dome of the Rock sitting on top of their temple mount.
 
Melchior said:
Youn have your history wrong. First, it is done deal. Israel is a sovereign state and has been for 60 years. There are many countries that are newer with less international legality yet no one seems to care - it’s just the Jews who aren’t allowed a homeland - as they didn’t have one already. And no one was displaced by them, that is a myth. Three states were offered in this unruled land. Transjordan - a Palestinian state was created, and Israel was. The remaining Palestinians rejected the offer of statehood back then. Those who stayed were not displaced, they left before Israel was attacked by the Arab states who promised them it would be theirs when they won. Well, they did not win and those who left did so as an act of war and have no rights nor should they. Beyond that, most Arabs now called Palesitinians do not have roots their, they came for jobs when Israel became a nation and now are raised with a revisionist history and ignore the actual facts behind the Palestinian mandate. 12% of Israeli citizens are Arabs with full Parlamentary repesentation. Every Palestinian who lived there had the same offer in 1948. The smart ones took it.

As for the minority of Christians there, their suffering is caused by the muslims the live under not the Jews. Christians are not persecuted in Israel, but they suffer under the Muslims and many, sad to say, make common cause with them out of dhimmitude. Yet it was the Israeli government that feor decades preserved the Christian Holy sites, while the muslims desecrated them.

Further 600,000 middle eastern Jews were expelled from Arab countries at this time and had nowhere else to go. While the Arabs who hit the road to allow for a staging ground for an attack did so of their own free will.

What would be wrong is to take a sovereign nation away from it’s people (zionism does not factor in - they are there so it is irrelevent) and hand it over to become another terrorist state.
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**One more think, I do apologize if I sounded as attacking you as I;m not and that is was not my intention, your misleading post just got to my goat, that is all, moreover, don’t take my word for it but if you are really interested to understand the plight of Palestinian Christians in the occupied land then I invite you to download this report jai-pal.org/files/Palestinian_Christians_in_Struggle.pdf

I hope you will and learn more,

Thanks**
 
AgnosTheist said:
To have priests they need the Temple. Thats not possible with the Dome of the Rock sitting on top of their temple mount.
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**Are you sure that is the case…? perhaps the where the dome of the rock is not the actual location of their temple…?

what do you think…?**
 
AbeOman said:
**Are you sure that is the case…? perhaps the where the dome of the rock is not the actual location of their temple…?

what do you think…?**
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The Weeping Wall is right beside it so its very likely that they have the correct location. The location also matches the description in historical records and in the torah.
 
AbeOman said:
**Facts, hard facts, please not mere empty words, do you know how many Arab Christian village is emptied by the IDF for security reasons, what rights do Arab Palestinian Christian have today…?
How many eastern churches have been leveled to the ground to make land for army posts and checkpoints…?

look and read what the partition wall is doing to the economy of Bethlehem…?

Hate to sound angry but I’m upset with your mere assumptions.
read what the Palestinian Arab Christians are saying to the world…sabeel.org/old/index.html**

After that we can debate and meantime, please refrain from making up stories like that of “Unruled Land”…!
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NO offense. But the website you directed us to was repuslive to me. AN article by christians basically defending and explaining suicide bombings???
 
AgnosTheist said:
To have priests they need the Temple. Thats not possible with the Dome of the Rock sitting on top of their temple mount.
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"kingdom of priests" means that a secular nation with politicians running the country is a definite no-no.

"an holy nation" means that any secular laws will always need to be subservient to the laws commanded by God to the Children of Israel i.e. Mosaic laws.

Does present day Israel then qualify as a “kingdom of priests and an holy nation”?

Remember that secularism and democracy were never taught by Moses (pbuh) and neither do these words appear even once in the Bible.
 
AgnosTheist said:
The Weeping Wall is right beside it so its very likely that they have the correct location. The location also matches the description in historical records and in the torah.
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**How far is the wailing or weeping wall from the Dome of the rock…? by the why has any genuine ubiased or none partisan archaeological excavations been carried out by anyone who is qualified…? just want to know, believe I would second guest and work done by either side.

Thanks,**
 
Valke2 said:
NO offense. But the website you directed us to was repuslive to me. AN article by christians basically defending and explaining suicide bombings???
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None taken, perhaps, my friend you were looking to find something repulsive on it in the first place…?

Well that is there view and so be it.
 
AgnosTheist said:
how does that compare with this:

The Moslem persecution of palestinian Christians.

cbn.com/cbnnews/news/051219a.aspx

i think muslims are more of a threat to them than the jews.
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**Good Lord, not Pat Robinson Ministry stuff…! please get the truth from a trust worthy source…better yet why do not you do yourself a big favor and call Mayor. David Khourry directly, here are his contacts. Taybeh Municipality Tel: (02) 289 8436
Fax: 289 8616
Email: taybeh@mlg.gov.ps
Also his wife’s numbers Dr. Maria C. Khoury
Mobile: 054 5 465 845. Phone: 0599 318 347

When dialing the numbers, make sure to add the country code for Palastine and not that of Israel.
meantime, take a look at this…
salon.com/news/feature/2006/09/27/palestinian_beer/index_np.html

One more site you should take a look at, saintgeorgetaybeh.org/index.html

Good luck to you.**
 
RomanCrusader said:
Zionism is not Christian, it is Jewish.
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The belief that the Israelites, or
“Jews” will be brought back into the land of Israel before what we know as the 2nd coming of Messiah is 100% biblical. God spoke it through his prophets of Israel hundreds of years ago.
 
AbeOman said:
None taken, perhaps, my friend you were looking to find something repulsive on it in the first place…?

Well that is there view and so be it.
Click to expand...
Actually, I first tried the link to the article I thought you were referring to, and it came up “not found”. So then I saw an article called “Suicide Bombers”. I figured it would be critical of the practice. It wasn’t.
 
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