What do you think about guitars during mass?

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First of all, please refrain from making personal insults. It seems that when people cannot refute a strong argument, the modus operendi is to level insults without even bothering to read the documents even when these have been properly shown.

I have already cited Musicam Sacram, which, from what I can tell from your posts, you choose to ignore. I have also cited from what Pope St. Pius X wrote in his MP (which has not been disregarded nor discarded by his successors) and what Pope John Paul II wrote to mark the 100th anniversary of the document.

The authority of the Holy See, which the Holy Father, as the successor to St. Peter exercises, is found within the Gospel of St. Matthew:

Thus, when the Holy See issues authoritative documents, these should not be dismissed or ridiculed, nor called arrogant. The arrogance lies on those who refuse to acknowledge them.
Benidictgal, perhaps you don’t realize that your posts, in asserting that people have no respect for the authority of the Church, and insinuating that they must not understand it, come across as very offensive to those they are directed at. It really seems like you think they must be very stupid, especially as compared to you, or very wicked. I don’t think it is your intention, but that is how it seems, and that is perhaps why they seem angry in response.

No one has refused to acknowledge those documents or the parts you posted, and I don’t see any indication that they haven’t read them or don’t accept their authority, or even that they personally disagree with them. But they are not reading and interpreting them in quite the same way you are. It is not at all uncommon and perfectly legitimate for two people to read the same documents and not get quite the same message, even if they are both reading it in all sincerity. It happens all the time, and discussions like this one, which can be useful and interesting, arise from it.

But it is ALWAYS a possibility that one’s own reading of the texts under discussion is the wrong one. If you assume that your understanding is the correct one, no questions asked, you won’t be able to get anything out of the discussion, other than angry. On the other hand, given the understanding that anyone reading a text may fail to see all the implications, or even just take it the wrong way (and almost everyone has experienced doing this) one can learn many things from those who see the situation differently, even without changing one’s own opinion. As well, assuming one’s own reading must be the correct, or only possible understanding, and identical with how the Church intended the text to be understood, suggests a kind of hubris.

In sum - no one is arguing the authority issue. They disagree with what you are saying those documents imply. If you want to make your point, it won’t help to point to the authority which they already acknowledge, you will have to argue that your interpretation is more sound somehow.
 
Pop music in different cultures uses some different instruments for example - around here it is not uncommon to hear bagpipes. Does this make them a pop instrument at heart? Probably not.
They’re not a pop instrument. There is record of them being used in church services for a long time. They are likely one of the instruments that Pope St. Pius X was referring to when he was talking about how wind instruments needed to be carefully regulated, but were allowed. A lone bagpiper at a solemn occasion is part of the normal music in a parish where the pipes are part of the cultural norm. The key here is that the use of the pipes in church music is ancient in custom, as the pipes themselves are almost as old as the church. The guitar is not, and its use in the church is a modern novelty, not part of a 1500 year cultural tradition. Similarly, it could be argued that the sitar might be appropriate in Indian churches, since it seems to have been part of the customary music of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church since antiquity. Even though the sitar is outwardly similar to the guitar, it is part of their traditional liturgical culture, not a novelty of the past 40 years. Everyone needs to keep in mind that the 2000 year old tradition of Catholic music was never intended to be disturbed the way it has been, just as the liturgical tradition was not meant to be disturbed the way it has been (but that is for another thread). Tradition is the source of wisdom and the richness of our patrimony. To divorce ourselves from the past is to make us no longer *culturally *Catholic, even if we are still orthodox believers.
If they interpreted these documents as strictly as you seem to want to, in 1000 years there would be no guitars or pianos at mass, and the organ would still be the #1 instrument… I don’t think it really reflects the intent of the Holy See.
That seems to be the exact intention of the Holy See for the past thousand or so years. When polyphony got too complex and the use of too many instrumental lines and passages sung in the vernacular simultaneously with the Latin texts created chaos and confusion, they were told to simplify their music to conform with the past. When the music became increasingly operatic, they were told to stop writing stage music for church and simplify their music to conform with the past. Now we see the influence of rock, jazz, and other secular styles encroaching on the music and we again need to conform to the past. There have been other popular instruments that are not part of the church’s musical customs. The harpsichord was the dominant instrument in Western European music for two centuries. It was never a true part of the liturgical tradition and we don’t use it in church. The organ is not holy in its own right. It is just the custom of our church and it connects us with the past and with our roots. What is holy about it is that it is part of the tradition of the church that is itself holy. Tradition sanctifies the instrument. It’s not as if I think all organs go to heaven when they finally stop working. 🙂 The repeated call to return to chant and sacred polyphony does, however, imply that the music of the church is not to be influenced by passing fads of popular music, but to remain beautifully sacred in character musically as well as textually. Having a sacred text is not enough; it must sound like sacred music, which is to say like the Latin musical tradition of chant, polyphony, and traditional Latin hymns (which are actually chant). It may be in the vernacular, certainly, and may have been written that way rather than translated to it. But it ought to sound like the traditional music of our church, which means no guitars.

And as for the learning to play the organ thing, our church has two organists. They aren’t amazing, but they are passable. I know exactly the difference between playing the organ and the piano. I play piano and I’ve tinkered around on the organ. I know it takes time to learn to select the right stops and to manipulate the pedal keyboard, but it is worth it. And actually it’s like asking someone to switch from violin to mandolin, not trombone. They aren’t completely different-- the fingerings are all still the same. It’s just not the same technique. I’ve seen many people make the switch over successfully in the course of a semester. But then again, I was at music school, and they did practice every day.

As far as not having control over the music, that I will grant you. It is the problem I have lived with for all this time. You can talk to the music director and perhaps persuade him or her to try the real traditional music. Assuming the music director is a classically trained musician this is often an easy sell. But it’s much harder to get the liturgical committee to agree to the switch. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth fighting for, though. It is what we are supposed to be doing. The four hymn scene used at most churches, like receiving communion on the hand and using Eucharistic ministers to distribute communion, all results from the same basic misunderstanding-- that what was allowed as an exception should become the normal practice. All of these things are extraordinary. Allowed, but not normal, even if they are the most common approach.

What is normal to the Latin Rite is the introit chant (not an entrance hymn), the sung Kyrie and Gloria, the gradual (not a responsorial psalm), the alleluia, the offertory chant (not a hymn at the offertory, although there is room for a second piece of music after the offertory chant), the Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and the communion chant (followed by another piece of music, which could be a hymn). This is the tradition. The closing hymn is well within the normal tradition, since no music is prescribed to that place. The offertory and communion songs really belong as motets after the chant. And mass is supposed to start with the introit. In the rubrics, however, each of these places says that the Gregorian propers or another suitable piece may be used. It always mentions the propers by name, but always allows for an exception. The exception, however, has become the rule in most parishes. We have lost the chants. And that’s the problem. It’s not the guitars themselves that create the threat. It’s the fact that guitars are not suited for the proper music for mass, and that the music is selected to conform to the instruments rather than the instruments to the music. I would feel much differently about them, and regard them as sacred instruments if they were used to accompany the Gregorian chants in a manner in keeping with the tradition. To date, I have never heard this, and the secular nature of the guitar and piano has always been demonstrated with the secular music (note: not lyrics, music) that they have performed.
 
Benedictgal, I’m just curious what you think about other instruments that can make convincing pipe organ tones. Do you have an opinion on that?

Also, is it just me, or are the quotes showing up incorrectly today?
I hope that the quote mechanism is working. I want to make sure I am responding to you, CTA.

I am not completely averse to that; however, what I am not in favor of doing is using recorded music. The authoritative documents of the Church clearly prohibit that. Earlier this year, we got into a lively debate. Rather than regurgitate what happened, you can read the entire proceedings here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=189411&highlight=recorded+music+in+mass&page=3

There needs to be a human element involved, and this element should not merely be pressing a button. The instrument needs to be played by a warm, living body, not a computer generated brain.
 
In sum - no one is arguing the authority issue. They disagree with what you are saying those documents imply. If you want to make your point, it won’t help to point to the authority which they already acknowledge, you will have to argue that your interpretation is more sound somehow.
Allow me to defend her. Those arguing in favour of the guitar at church have failed to show anything from an authoritative document that suggests that this practice is acceptable. In order to refute what those of us against it are saying, it would stand to reason that someone should be able to post quotes from the authoritative documents as well as their interpretations thereof in order to defend themselves. As it stands, most of what comes through is merely disobedient to the Holy See. People say “well I think it’s allowed” or “I think it’s good and reverent” and so forth. These are merely opinions. Those of us quoting from authoritative decrees (and most of them are available in English at www.adoremus.org) are using church documents to support our arguments, and the best that is leveled against any such argument is that you either a.) disagree because you like the music or b.) think we’re being condescending by quoting authority as though we think we’re smarter than everyone. It’s not a matter of thinking we’re smarter. We’re just telling you what the Holy See thinks, as based in the things that the Holy See has released on the matter. It is all reasonably the same throughout the history of the Church. Very little actually changes in Catholicism, and it usually takes centuries to change at all. So if you think your opinions are respectful and reflect the wishes of the Church, please quote me the passages that support them. And don’t use the psalms; we’ve already explained why they are insufficient evidence of either Jewish Temple worship or Catholic mass music.
 
I hope that the quote mechanism is working. I want to make sure I am responding to you, CTA.

I am not completely averse to that; however, what I am not in favor of doing is using recorded music. The authoritative documents of the Church clearly prohibit that. Earlier this year, we got into a lively debate. Rather than regurgitate what happened, you can read the entire proceedings here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=189411&highlight=recorded+music+in+mass&page=3

There needs to be a human element involved, and this element should not merely be pressing a button. The instrument needs to be played by a warm, living body, not a computer generated brain.
Oh, I remember reading that thread before. Yes, I agree that mass music should be done live. It’s just not the same when machines are spewing out notes.
 
If the pianists had hi-tech keyboards (the ones that look like pianos and have “sampled” sound", and switched them to the organ voice, we might have a nice compromise. Our pianist often does this, to very good effect. There are also MIDI guitars that can sound like organs, which are also excellent.

But still, in little churches with little budgets, it’s almost a cappella or nothing if you can’t use a guitar.

One way to graciously initiate change might be at daily Mass, where there might be less of someone “in charge” and just a need to clear it with the priest.
This is a very interesting question, and one that doesn’t seem to have a definitive answer, since this technology has evolved since the last official decrees from the Vatican. It is likely to go unanswered for some time. I think, in light of tradition, that we should err on the side of caution. That is, a keyboard with an “organ sound” is effectively an electric organ, which is okay (although it might be less than desirable, since the samples are seldom very good). A midi guitar, though, is still a guitar and will play as a guitar.

To me, the question all comes down to the style of the music that is natural to the instrument, but this is my interpretation. A midi guitar set on organ might qualify as sufficiently sacred sounding if it were used for sacred-style music. If it were strummed rather than finger-picked, though, it would still lead to a singer-songwriter approach to music that is clearly not in keeping with the tradition. That said, a carefully picked midi guitar that was used to play traditional music might be adequate, and the technology is still new enough that it is not entirely clear to me whether we can call it secular yet.

This is one to ponder for sure.
 
Benidictgal, perhaps you don’t realize that your posts, in asserting that people have no respect for the authority of the Church, and insinuating that they must not understand it, come across as very offensive to those they are directed at. It really seems like you think they must be very stupid, especially as compared to you, or very wicked. I don’t think it is your intention, but that is how it seems, and that is perhaps why they seem angry in response.

No one has refused to acknowledge those documents or the parts you posted, and I don’t see any indication that they haven’t read them or don’t accept their authority, or even that they personally disagree with them. But they are not reading and interpreting them in quite the same way you are. It is not at all uncommon and perfectly legitimate for two people to read the same documents and not get quite the same message, even if they are both reading it in all sincerity. It happens all the time, and discussions like this one, which can be useful and interesting, arise from it.

But it is ALWAYS a possibility that one’s own reading of the texts under discussion is the wrong one. If you assume that your understanding is the correct one, no questions asked, you won’t be able to get anything out of the discussion, other than angry. On the other hand, given the understanding that anyone reading a text may fail to see all the implications, or even just take it the wrong way (and almost everyone has experienced doing this) one can learn many things from those who see the situation differently, even without changing one’s own opinion. As well, assuming one’s own reading must be the correct, or only possible understanding, and identical with how the Church intended the text to be understood, suggests a kind of hubris.

In sum - no one is arguing the authority issue. They disagree with what you are saying those documents imply. If you want to make your point, it won’t help to point to the authority which they already acknowledge, you will have to argue that your interpretation is more sound somehow.
If people are completely ignoring the authoritative documents of the Church and instead substituting their own preference then what else should it be called? Is it not arrogance to set yourself against the will of the Church as determined by those whom God has called to lead it? And is it not a fact that we are told in the Bible to fraternally correct others when they err, what better way to do so than quoting directly and as far as possible dispassionatly from the documents which outline what the Church expects.

Who has quoted from the documents of the Church apart from Benedictgal and others who seem to be broadly supportive of her interpretation? We constantly hear that guitars and a plethora of other things must be allowed because Fr X said so, Bishop J said it was okay or because the Pope has not stood in Saint Peter’s Square with Bell, Book and Candle anathemising each instrument/song title/arrangement/composer by name. That is not how the Church works, never has been never will be.

If you believe that you have an alternative interpretation then produce it, tell us about that interpretation, but actually use the documents and teachings of the Church rather than vague notions of what you see or think proper, and the usual personal attacks which are the last bastion of those whose arguments are founded on sand. We have heard what Pope St Pius X wrote, we have heard that Pope John Paul II reiterated much of what he said, perhaps you could begin by referring us to a document which advocates the use of guitars during the Mass? It seems to me there is no need to argue whether an interpretation is more sound when a competing interpretation has yet to be established from the documents of the Church.
 
They’re not a pop instrument. There is record of them being used in church services for a long time. They are likely one of the instruments that Pope St. Pius X was referring to when he was talking about how wind instruments needed to be carefully regulated, but were allowed. A lone bagpiper at a solemn occasion is part of the normal music in a parish where the pipes are part of the cultural norm. The key here is that the use of the pipes in church music is ancient in custom, as the pipes themselves are almost as old as the church. The guitar is not, and its use in the church is a modern novelty, not part of a 1500 year cultural tradition. Similarly, it could be argued that the sitar might be appropriate in Indian churches, since it seems to have been part of the customary music of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church since antiquity. Even though the sitar is outwardly similar to the guitar, it is part of their traditional liturgical culture, not a novelty of the past 40 years. Everyone needs to keep in mind that the 2000 year old tradition of Catholic music was never intended to be disturbed the way it has been, just as the liturgical tradition was not meant to be disturbed the way it has been (but that is for another thread). Tradition is the source of wisdom and the richness of our patrimony. To divorce ourselves from the past is to make us no longer *culturally *Catholic, even if we are still orthodox believers.

That seems to be the exact intention of the Holy See for the past thousand or so years. When polyphony got too complex and the use of too many instrumental lines and passages sung in the vernacular simultaneously with the Latin texts created chaos and confusion, they were told to simplify their music to conform with the past. When the music became increasingly operatic, they were told to stop writing stage music for church and simplify their music to conform with the past. Now we see the influence of rock, jazz, and other secular styles encroaching on the music and we again need to conform to the past. There have been other popular instruments that are not part of the church’s musical customs.
I wouldn’t wholeheartedly agree with your assessment that the desire has been to keep the music the same. If that were so, it would be rather more the same than it is, and in fact we can see that even if we only look at the good stuff, there have been changes over the last 1000 years.

Now, all of the examples you gave were cases where a popular style or even internal development of the music meant that it was beginning to impact negatively on the liturgy. And very rightly direction was given to tone it down. But Palestrina is still polyphony, not plainchant, the effect was to set a boundary, not maintain a single moment in time.

Now, I have, thank goodness, never had to attend a church where there was full-out rock music or jazz, and at the moment I have a church with a very accomplished choir and an excellent pipe organ and organist who studied church music at a university level. Whoo-hoo. But rock and jazz are not right for liturgy, for the same reasons those other trends you mentioned were not right. There is lots of music written for liturgical settings that has a modern feel without falling directly into one of those categories, and I find them a little harder to judge. Obviously they are no good if people can’t actually sing them or hear the words of the liturgy, or in the case of hymns there are problems with the words themselves.
More tricky is whether they have the proper feel or emotional content for what they are expressing - sometimes it seems that the intent is good but the execution is bad. But I find many of them quite musically insipid, like commercials for anti-depressants. Other people I know seem to find them inspiring though, and even moving - I am not sure that I am right and they are wrong since we seem to have such varied experiences from the same music.
 
That said, a carefully picked midi guitar that was used to play traditional music might be adequate, and the technology is still new enough that it is not entirely clear to me whether we can call it secular yet.

If said midi guitar is up in a choir loft in the rear, where nobody can see the guitarist, 99% of the congregation would not be able to distinguish it from a high-quality electric organ.

I do miss pipe organs. I love how they make the whole building vibrate. It’s so much more than just carrying a tune.
 
If people are completely ignoring the authoritative documents of the Church and instead substituting their own preference then what else should it be called? Is it not arrogance to set yourself against the will of the Church as determined by those whom God has called to lead it? And is it not a fact that we are told in the Bible to fraternally correct others when they err, what better way to do so than quoting directly and as far as possible dispassionatly from the documents which outline what the Church expects.

Who has quoted from the documents of the Church apart from Benedictgal and others who seem to be broadly supportive of her interpretation? We constantly hear that guitars and a plethora of other things must be allowed because Fr X said so, Bishop J said it was okay or because the Pope has not stood in Saint Peter’s Square with Bell, Book and Candle anathemising each instrument/song title/arrangement/composer by name. That is not how the Church works, never has been never will be.

If you believe that you have an alternative interpretation then produce it, tell us about that interpretation, but actually use the documents and teachings of the Church rather than vague notions of what you see or think proper, and the usual personal attacks which are the last bastion of those whose arguments are founded on sand. We have heard what Pope St Pius X wrote, we have heard that Pope John Paul II reiterated much of what he said, perhaps you could begin by referring us to a document which advocates the use of guitars during the Mass? It seems to me there is no need to argue whether an interpretation is more sound when a competing interpretation has yet to be established from the documents of the Church.
Many people have been responding to the exact same quotes, which is why they haven’t bothered to quote them again - embedded quotes from up-thread don’t automatically appear past one post. Many have agreed that instruments that have strong and inappropriate secular overtones should be used not at all, that instruments and styles of music can be wholly inappropriate, that it is important to maintain a continuity of sacred musical tradition, and that chant and organ have a special place which should be emphasized.

The same people have, without contradicting, or even based on the same quotes, have not agreed that any instrument other than chant or organ is illicit, that some instruments have a dual role in secular and sacred tradition, that an instrument cannot be innately less “holy,” that change has happened in sacred music in the past and is not always wrong in the present and future both stylistically and with regard to instrumentation, that in different cultures and times what is appropriate may vary, and sometimes specific circumstances mean adaptation and possibly innovation is required.

And yet they have been accused of ignoring the relevant documents, not accepting the authority of the Church, or not understanding the need to accept it, all in relation to these specific points. (I have no defense for those who argue it is ok since Fr X said so, though I have sympathy for those simply assuming the parish priest knows what he is about.)

I have yet to see that any of these points is definitively contradicted by the quotes which have been brought up to contradict them.
 
Benedictgal, I notice this from one of your responses:
Electric guitars, keyboards, bongos, bass guitars and drum kits are suitable for secular music only. Let’s put it this way, if you hear Eddie Van Halen roaring up a mean solo on an electric guitar, that should give you a clear indication that this is not at all suitable for the Mass. The electric guitar already has its main association with secular music.

Ah, so now we have the matter clarified somewhat: it’s only electric guitars that are inappropriate. Somebody turning up with a classical-style acoustic guitar is not guilty of defiling the church.

I notice you also single out bass guitars, but not double-basses; drum kits but not disconnected drums or other percussion instruments (save bongos–I’d have to agree with that!); and there is still the unanswered question, from my earlier post, about digital keyboard instruments with a piano-like action that can produce an organ-like sound.
 
Perhaps you’re right and I’m just noticing something that really isn’t all that common.

But it seems that there’s just an awful lot of complaining about Masses, and it seems like a lot of the people complaining are talking about Masses that they visited (not their regular Mass).

Like I said in my other post, if people travel, then they will visit Masses and inevitably, some of those Masses will be doozies. I’ve visited several dozen Masses while travelling (figure skating competitions–not me, my husband and daughters), and I’ve never run across anything seriously wrong. But others just seem to be luckless when it comes to Masses on vacation. I feel bad for them.

But why are they visiting around in their own neck of the woods, unless they are in an official capacity (e.g., Liturgy Director for the Diocese)? That’s what I’m wondering about, ac claire. It seems that there are an awful lot of posts on this forum from people who say, “I decided to visit the Life Teen Mass” or the “folk Mass”–why?! Why not just stay away from that which hurts you and stick with the Mass that does you good and builds you up?

It seems to me that when someone who prefers a Mass with chant and other kinds of traditional music that is appropriate for the liturgy “tune ins” to Mariachi Mass, they are asking for an hour of frustration. Why not just say, “Oops, Mariachi Mass, not interested!” and tune to another channel? What good will it do to listen to something that you can do absolutely nothing about? I don’t get this at all. I don’t think that undirected frustration and anger does anyone any good at all.
I think you’re saying something that we call preserving your inner peace. It is good advice. If we do not have the power to change something, we certainly have the power to avoid it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Benedictgal, I notice this from one of your responses:
Electric guitars, keyboards, bongos, bass guitars and drum kits are suitable for secular music only. Let’s put it this way, if you hear Eddie Van Halen roaring up a mean solo on an electric guitar, that should give you a clear indication that this is not at all suitable for the Mass. The electric guitar already has its main association with secular music.

Ah, so now we have the matter clarified somewhat: it’s only electric guitars that are inappropriate. Somebody turning up with a classical-style acoustic guitar is not guilty of defiling the church.

I notice you also single out bass guitars, but not double-basses; drum kits but not disconnected drums or other percussion instruments (save bongos–I’d have to agree with that!); and there is still the unanswered question, from my earlier post, about digital keyboard instruments with a piano-like action that can produce an organ-like sound.
Again, please note what the authoritative documents of Holy See have to say:
  1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44
Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.
When an instrument is commonly used for secular music, as is the case with electric guitars, bass guitars (regardless how many necks are attached to them), drun kits, bongos and the like, they are prohibited, as Musicam Sacram indicates.

Even acoustc guitars, as I have experienced them, are not necessarily conducive to the sacred, solemn and dignified nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The strumming and the picking is not exactly, as I have experienced them, ideal for what is unfolding at the Mass. A big part of the problem is that music publishing houses like OCP, and, to some extent GIA, push pieces that are primarily driven by the guitar. Have Bob Hurd, et al, ever written anything suitable for the organ? About the only one who has written anything from the OCP stable suitable for the organ is Fr. John Schiavone.

As others have indicated, an electric guitar with a midi is still an electric guitar. I would rather we err on the side of caution than take it upon ourselves to use whatever is at hand simply because it makes a noise or we think it sounds great. That is not necessarily how the Church operates.
 
^

A “double bass” is not an electric bass guitar with twin necks. It is the string bass of orchestras which jazz; pop. and even rock musicians adopted before bass guitars were in common usage. Some in popular music still use the double bass by choice, and even bow them on occasion.
 
^

A “double bass” is not an electric bass guitar with twin necks. It is the string bass of orchestras which jazz; pop. and even rock musicians adopted before bass guitars were in common usage. Some in popular music still use the double bass by choice, and even bow them on occasion.
Heh, I’d say the main reason why I wouldn’t want an upright bass at Mass is that not many people play it well. 😛
 
^

A “double bass” is not an electric bass guitar with twin necks. It is the string bass of orchestras which jazz; pop. and even rock musicians adopted before bass guitars were in common usage. Some in popular music still use the double bass by choice, and even bow them on occasion.
All the same, though, if the instrument is associated with secular music (and I mean strongly associated, like in a rock band), then, it has no place in the Mass.l
 
The same principles are upheld. Yet, the latter Church documents do not mention instruments specifically by name. Rather the Church allows the principle of subsidiarity to guide the judgment of those who best know each culture, the local bishop. Today’s culture is not the same as it was in 1903 and papal authority on such disciplinary issues ends with his death and is passed on to the next in line. If my bishop or the Church specifies such changes, then I would surely be willing to follow that. In fact, it would take a great burden off of me. Until then, I have to do what I have to do.
I think this is the correct attitude and the correct understanding of the whole issue. While visiting our friars in NY is spent two days with the Franciscans of the Renewal (not my own congregation) and I found their liturgy very different from our own down south. However, as I sat there and prayed and conteplated the mystery of the Eucharist I couldn’t help but feel that I was in New York.

I had to accept that this is not my home, my culture and my style. But it certainly is their home and their culture and they approach the liturgy bringing their gift of music, adoration and love. I found this to be very refreshing when I thought of it in those terms. These brothers were truly praising God with the best gifts that they have to offer. They do not have an organ. They can’t own an organ. Their constitution is very clear on the poverty that they must live. If someone wants to donate an organ, they would use it. But they would not go out a purchase one for thousands of dollars because it violates their constitution. The people to whom they minister can’t afford to give them an organ. So they make due with a few guitars and other instruments that the friars have around the friary. I have to admit that at Christmas I heard one of the most beautiful renditions of Silent Night that I have ever heard. One of the brothers learned the original version of that hymn, which was played on the guitar when it was first used. It was inspiring. I have known that Silent Night was first played on a guitar, but had never heard it.

The point I’m making is that there is more than rules. The rules are meant to help us worship God in a manner that is befittting to his majesty. The most important part of that is our heart and our love. If the music becomes a function of “enjoyment” for its own sake, then we have a serious problem. But when the music is part of the soul’s love for God and his most sacred sacrifice in the mass, the rules of the Church are not meant to abolish that and should not be used that way.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This thread has taken a frightening turn.

Do those of you who advocate that time stopped with Pope Pius X’s (and I don’t think he’s a saint yet, is he? So why Pope St. Pius X?) proclamations against all instruments except organ realize how you are undermining the authority of the Church?

Many MANY Catholic churches in the U.S., including churches under the most conservative and orthodox of bishops (mine is Thomas Doran), use piano and guitar out of necessity. Gregorian chant is not easy for amateurs to learn without a trained musician to help them.

What you are saying is that ALL of these churches are practicing an abuse, and ALL of these bishops are promulgating that abuse, and that the Mass liturgy is somehow “damaged” by it.

These ideas put doubts into the minds of many “weak” Catholics about the authority of their bishop and priests (and also into the minds of potential converts). These doubts prey upon these people and make them wonder how many other things are “wrong” with their bishop and church.

Eventually, many of these Catholics make decisions to disregard the Church entirely because they CANNOT TRUST what they are being told by the Catholic Church.

And seekers make decisions to not convert because they cannot TRUST the Church. After all, if almost every bishop in the U.S. is doing music wrong, the Church is ineffectual.

Do you honestly think that if piano and guitar and other instruments were “wrong,” that Pope Benedict XVI (and the other popes who came after Pope Pius X) would allow so many many churches to continue the wrong?

Do you honestly think that ALL those bishops would continue the wrong, too?

Is the Pope that wimpy? Are the bishops that corrupt?

You honestly think that YOU have interpreted the documents correctly, while all of these bishops, including bishops like mine who are have Doctoral Degrees in Canon Law, are WRONG?

OR…do you not think it is probably that it is YOU who are wrong in your interpretation of the teachings of the Catholic Church? By relying upon one Pope’s teachings regarding disciplines, you are disregarding all of the teachings about disciplines that have come from the Church since then.

I hope that everyone who reads this will trust their own priests and bishop, not a anonymous poster on a online board who tells us that all our churches are in the wrong by using pianos.
Yes, Pope Pius X is a canonized saint, but not because he was a pope or even because of his legislation, but because he lived a heroic Christian life. In fact, he is a Franciscan saint. His life was very austere, very contemplative and very faithful to the Gospel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Just found this, it’s the Catholic Encyclopedia’s (1911) entry on the history of instruments in Church: newadvent.org/cathen/10657a.htm

Here’s the last paragraph:
From time to time regulations have been issued governing the use of instruments and condemning existing abuses. In 1728 Benedict XII rebuked a community of Benedictine nuns in Milan for using other instruments than the organ during high Mass and Vespers. He also forbade the Franciscans to use any other instrument than the organ in their conventual churches. Benedict XIV in his encyclical “Annus qui nunc vertentem” (19 February, 1749) tolerates only the organ, stringed instruments, and bassoons. Kettle-drums, horns, trombones, oboes, flutes, pianos, and mandolins are prohibited. In the “Regolamento” of 1884, flutes, trombones, and kettle-drums are permitted on account of the improved manner in which they are now used as compared with former times. In the name of Gregory XVI, the Cardinal-Vicar of Rome, Patrizi, prohibited (1842) the use of instruments in the Roman churches, with the exception of a few to be used in a becoming manner in accompanying the singing, and then only after permission had been secured from the proper authority. This order was renewed in 1856 by the same cardinal in the name of Pius IX. Pius X, in his “Motu proprio” on church music (22 November, 1903) in paragraph IV, says, “Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with the proper regards other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special license of the ordinary, according to the prescription of the ‘Cæremoniale Episcoporum’. As the chant should always have the first place, the organ or instruments should merely sustain and never suppress it. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes, or to have it interrupted with intermezzo pieces”, etc. Among those who have recently written, within the prescribed limits, works for voices and instruments for liturgical, are, I. Mitterer, G.J.E. Stehle, M. Brosig, Max Filke, George Zeller, L. Bonvin, S.J., C. Greith, F.X. Witt, P. Griesbacher, J.G. Meuerer, and J. Rheinberger. The present trend is, however, decidedly away from the instrumental idea and back to the purely vocal style. And it is recognized, and in many places acted upon, that the new version of the liturgical chant, proposed to the Catholic world by Pius X, gains its full beauty and effectiveness only when sung without instrumental accompaniment of any kind.
Reading this article, it seems that various non-organ keyboards, including early pianos, have been used for sacred purposes, as well as orchestral strings and winds.
 
Contemprary hymns like “On Eagles Wings” and “We are Called” (composed by Catholics and not Protestants) do meet the criteria that you mentioned before to qualify as sacred music. In time, I believe they will remain in the lexicon of sacred music and become as well know as “Ave Verum” over time. In fact, if you are referring to “Ave Verum Corpus” that is so popular in church services today, it was part of Mozart’s Requiem Mass that was first performed in a concert hall in front of a secular audience before it was performed in a church. Also, based on your narrow view of what the church considers “sacred music”, a mass celebrated by an African congregation who uses drums and other native instruments would be profane in the eyes of God. Oh, and by the way, what kind of organ did the apostles at their services? Pope John Paul II attended masses when he visited the U.S. several times and went out of his way to praise the use of gutars and other “secular” instuments in the celebration of the mass. I think you augument is full of hot air!
 
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