What do you think about guitars during mass?

[pnewton]

benedictgal, do YOU agree with what FrancisB has researched and reported here–that pianos and guitars are forbidden in the Holy Mass?

He has done a lot of research, and his conclusion is logical.

As I have pointed out earlier, Cardinal Arinze, who is probably as knowledgable as Francis said point that he would not go so far as to say guitars are forbidden.

 

[hansard]

If the guitars are in tune and well played, there is nothing wrong with them. Some organists are dreadful players, and their ineptitude does nothing for the solemnity of the mass.
Do we really want to tell guitarists, who may be as devout and sincere as anybody else in the congregation, that they cannot have music as their ministry?

 

[Cat]

If the guitars are in tune and well played, there is nothing wrong with them. Some organists are dreadful players, and their ineptitude does nothing for the solemnity of the mass.
Do we really want to tell guitarists, who may be as devout and sincere as anybody else in the congregation, that they cannot have music as their ministry?

Well, hansard, according to FrancisB’s conclusions after he did several months of research into the Church documents, that’s exactly what we’re supposed to do–tell the guitarists and pianists that their instruments are NOT allowed in the Mass.

Here’s the quote from his posts, (boldface mine):

Are you seriously suggesting that if every successive pope does not write a motu proprio to condemn the use of guitars and pianos that they become acceptable for mass as soon as the pope dies? At any rate, the writings of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship are not subject to the death of the pope; they are binding. And what is secular at its inception remains secular. The guitar is a secular instrument. It was created as one (for folk music, which is secular in nature). It continues to be one. The advent of hymnals with guitar chords and Christian Rock doesn’t make the instrument any less secular. The same can be said of the piano. It was created as a secular instrument for use in Classical Music when the other keyboard instruments of the day were found lacking. It remains a secular instrument. The harpsichord was also a secular instrument. That’s why the Baroque masters substituted the organ for it when they wrote bassi continui for sacred music.

Do you think it coincidence that these things suddenly appeared in mass only after the prevailing wisdom was “anything goes”? What is secular remains secular. It does not become sacred because people brought it to church illicitly. Nor do the rules change when a pope dies. If Benedict XVI were to decree that guitars and pianos were now allowed to be used in the mass, then it would be so, and I would quietly accept this and pray for a return to the musical treasure of our past. He has not, and I doubt he will. God alone knows what who our next pope will be or what he will decree. **In the meantime, I think it’s very clear that guitars and pianos are not allowed. **

I’ve copied all of FrancisB’s posts and my responses to him, and plan to ask my Bishop next week (after the holiday weekend). I’ll let everyone know.

 

[hansard]

What about digital instruments with a piano-like action that can, at the push of a button, produce an organ-like sound?
(Believe me, the improvement to digital sampling in the last 10 years or so has been astounding–I would defy anyone but an expert to tell the difference between a good sample, through good speakers, and the real thing).

What about electric organs (you know, the Hammond-type instruments once popular in living rooms of the western world), which were simultaneously used for secular and sacred purposes?

Does the technology involved in producing the sound matter, or are we to stick with wind-driven pipe organs?

It sounds like a serious matter, enough to distract the faithful from the real business of the mass; even enough to make them consider changing their place of worship. And, if in fact it is against the wishes of successive Popes, then local Bishops should be appalled at the practice of bringing secular instruments into church. This is direct defiance of Papal authority, which is a sin, possibly mortal.

 

[CTA1967]

Does the technology involved in producing the sound matter, or are we to stick with wind-driven pipe organs?

That is an interesting question. With modern technology and sampling, like you said, you can produce the sound of any instrument (which isn’t limited to just keyboards; Vox did at one point make “guitar organs”). And how many parishes have the money or the space for an actual pipe organ?

Actually, one could argue that in the past century, pretty much every instrument has become secular. There have even been well known secular pop and rock groups who were fond of using old fashioned instruments like actual pipe organs and harpsichords. What exactly defines when an instrument crosses the line between sacred and secular?

 

[EvelynEVF]

At the specific Mass I go to, we have a “piano” that is often turned into organ sound, which is lovely. There are also three guitarists, only one of whom is really good. And occasionally, I hate to day, a drummer. Even more occasionally, a fantastic oboe-ist who plays a lovely descant to everything.

I find myself preferring the organ and the good guitarist not just for their skill, but as someone noted earlier–good solid hymns are not conducive to being played on strummed guitars and folk instruments. The drummer did once try to drum to Jesus Christ is Risen Today, and it Just.Didn’t.Work.

 

[Bluegoat]

At the specific Mass I go to, we have a “piano” that is often turned into organ sound, which is lovely. There are also three guitarists, only one of whom is really good. And occasionally, I hate to day, a drummer. Even more occasionally, a fantastic oboe-ist who plays a lovely descant to everything.

I find myself preferring the organ and the good guitarist not just for their skill, but as someone noted earlier–good solid hymns are not conducive to being played on strummed guitars and folk instruments. The drummer did once try to drum to Jesus Christ is Risen Today, and it Just.Didn’t.Work.

Some crashy cymbals might work for that one though. “Je-sus Christ is Risen To-day (CRASH)!”

 

[EvelynEVF]

Some crashy cymbals might work for that one though. “Je-sus Christ is Risen To-day (CRASH)!”

Eeek! Though I did once go to a big presbyterian church that had an orchestra, and that was incredible.

 

[benedictgal]

I have been singing Tenor in the contemporary group at my church for about 18 years. My experience before this was in a more classical and traditional musical genre. I love both styles of music and have been blessed so far by being associated with so many talented singer and musicians. The bottom line is, any musical instrument is appropriate at mass as long as it is being played well! In my travels, I have heard some pretty awful music at mass and I can understand how it distracts from the worship experience. On the other hand, I’ve been to some masses where talented, well practiced and inspired musicians make worshiping at mass a very pleasant and spiritually powerful experience.
Just to let you know, I’m not just some young whippersnapper in my 20’s or 30’s. I will be 60 years old this Christmas. As a young boy, I was a Soprano in the Men and Boys choir at my church. I am well versed in all of the classical (Latin) Catholic music of pre-Vatican II and loved it all. I was in high school during Vatican II and my school was one of the first schools in the archdiocese to introduce folk and rock music at our masses. I must admit, most of that early music was pretty bad. As time has passed however, a very rich,beautiful and spiritual body of music has emerged. Now songs like " On Eagles Wings" and “We Are Called” are standards in most hymnals. I’m sure that their are many traditionalist out their that wouldn’t be caught dead at one of those “damn Hootenanny masses” or “Banjo Masses” as my uncle Carroll use to call them. It’s all a matter of personal taste. I’ve heard some pretty stinky organ playing in my day as well.So don’t blame the instrument or the music, blame the musician. I’m sure their are some churches in your area that have some decent contemporary music groups. Ask around and find out where they are and attend a mass there. Discover what a really talented contemporary music group sound like and how it can help facilitate your worship at mass.

I would not go so far as to put “Eagles Wings” and “We are Called” on the same level as “Ave Verum”, “O Sun of Justice” and the “Attende Domine”. Remember that the only reason they are still in the books is because OCP is the party responsible for this bad tripe.

A lot of the contemporary music out there has its basis in what Protestant ecclesial communities sing and, this is not necessarily compatible with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I would suggest that you read the authoritative documents of the Holy See, including the writings of Pope St. Piux X, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVi regarding Sacred Music.

Have you read, for example, what Pope John Paul II wrote in his Chirograph on Sacred Music wherein he writes that:

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

1. Another principle, affirmed by St Pius X in the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini and which is closely connected with the previous one, is that of sound form. There can be no music composed for the celebration of sacred rites which is not first of all “true art” or which does not have that efficacy “which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her Liturgy the art of musical sounds”[15].

I would also direct you to read Musicam Sacram. You can find the document in its entirety here:

adoremus.org/MusicamSacram.html

The liturgy is not some free form exercise in creativity. The liturgy has its standards and these should be met.

 

[CWBetts]

I do not believe what I am reading here. To insinuate that one instrument is “more sinful” or “more holy” than another is utter rubbish. It is not the tool, it is t the use thereof. A guitar can bu used to play solemn, holy music, as can an organ. Both can also bu used in a less than holy manner. One may prefer the organ over the guitar (which I count myself in that number), but to suggest that a guitar, by its very nature, is inherently less holy than an organ? Preposterous. That would be like saying that a painting of a cathedral is more holy than a photograph, merely because one prefers the artistry of painting over photography. Guitars and organs are morally neutral. The sinfulness (or holiness) lies within its use.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I do not believe what I am reading here. To insinuate that one instrument is “more sinful” or “more holy” than another is utter rubbish. It is not the tool, it is t the use thereof. A guitar can bu used to play solemn, holy music, as can an organ. Both can also bu used in a less than holy manner. One may prefer the organ over the guitar (which I count myself in that number), but to suggest that a guitar, by its very nature, is inherently less holy than an organ? Preposterous. That would be like saying that a painting of a cathedral is more holy than a photograph, merely because one prefers the artistry of painting over photography. Guitars and organs are morally neutral. The sinfulness (or holiness) lies within its use.

Consider, I believe the talk is about a pipe organ, not an electronic keyboard with an organ setting. By its natural it is immobile built for a specific building. As the Church mandates certain things happen within the building I can see how it will try to avoid things with mobility and able to be of dual usage.

 

[CWBetts]

Consider, I believe the talk is about a pipe organ, not an electronic keyboard with an organ setting. By its natural it is immobile built for a specific building. As the Church mandates certain things happen within the building I can see how it will try to avoid things with mobility and able to be of dual usage.

Irrelevant. There is a large concert hall close to my home, complete with pipe organ. The hall is available for rent, which does not exclude religious organizations. If a Catholic parish would rent the hall for a large event, which would include a mass, it would be a foregone conclusion that the Wurlitzer would be used, even though it is used for secular purposes. The point being argued is that any instrument by its very nature is holier than another, which is silly.

 

[benedictgal]

I do not believe what I am reading here. To insinuate that one instrument is “more sinful” or “more holy” than another is utter rubbish. It is not the tool, it is t the use thereof. A guitar can bu used to play solemn, holy music, as can an organ. Both can also bu used in a less than holy manner. One may prefer the organ over the guitar (which I count myself in that number), but to suggest that a guitar, by its very nature, is inherently less holy than an organ? Preposterous. That would be like saying that a painting of a cathedral is more holy than a photograph, merely because one prefers the artistry of painting over photography. Guitars and organs are morally neutral. The sinfulness (or holiness) lies within its use.

Again, as I read your posts, you are not basing yourself on what the authoritative documents of the Church, specifically Musicam Sacram, say:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

Electric guitars, keyboards, bongos, bass guitars and drum kits are suitable for secular music only. Let’s put it this way, if you hear Eddie Van Halen roaring up a mean solo on an electric guitar, that should give you a clear indication that this is not at all suitable for the Mass. The electric guitar already has its main association with secular music.

As I have said before, the Mass is not some experimental project. It is the Holy Sacrifice. It needs to be treated with dignity, solemnity, majesty and above all, respect.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Irrelevant. There is a large concert hall close to my home, complete with pipe organ. The hall is available for rent, which does not exclude religious organizations. If a Catholic parish would rent the hall for a large event, which would include a mass, it would be a foregone conclusion that the Wurlitzer would be used, even though it is used for secular purposes. The point being argued is that any instrument by its very nature is holier than another, which is silly.

Just trying to think of possible ideals of why an organ will be singled out as a worthy tool. And other pieces of wood with strings are not. If you think anti-guitar bias is high consider how people react to drums since they can’t carry a melody. But that is another thread. I only have been following this one because I play guitar and bass at my church.

 

[benedictgal]

Just trying to think of possible ideals of why an organ will be singled out as a worthy tool. And other pieces of wood with strings are not. If you think anti-guitar bias is high consider how people react to drums since they can’t carry a melody. But that is another thread. I only have been following this one because I play guitar and bass at my church.

But, with all due respect, what you do in your ecclesial community and what we do in the Church are two entirely different elements altogether. The Church’s form of worship is what has been handed down to us for 2,000 years, directly from Jesus Christ, Himself. We have both the Word and the Sacrifice.

During the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth and time and space is lifted. We are in the very presence of the Divine Majesty of God. Thus, what we offer to the Lord in our Sacrificial worship must be worthy of His Divine Majesty. It must be Sacred for this Sacrificial Act is not something trivial, but, it is the very coming together of the Triune God and His people. It is a Holy exchange. It is something sacred and marvelous.

To introduce secular and profane instruments is to totally not understand what we are doing at the Mass. That is why the Church safeguards the integrity of Her liturgy. That is why the Popes, from Pope St. Gregory the Great (who reformed sacred music as early as the 6th century) to Pope St. Piux X (who further reformed it in 1903) and the late Pope John Paul II (who re-affirmed what his canonized predecessors wrote) and his successor, Pope Benedict XVI, who is an accomplished musician and who knows a great deal about sacred music, have written about the importance and integrity of the music used for the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[4Squarebaby]

But, with all due respect, what you do in your ecclesial community and what we do in the Church are two entirely different elements altogether. The Church’s form of worship is what has been handed down to us for 2,000 years, directly from Jesus Christ, Himself. We have both the Word and the Sacrifice.

During the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth and time and space is lifted. We are in the very presence of the Divine Majesty of God. Thus, what we offer to the Lord in our Sacrificial worship must be worthy of His Divine Majesty. It must be Sacred for this Sacrificial Act is not something trivial, but, it is the very coming together of the Triune God and His people. It is a Holy exchange. It is something sacred and marvelous.

To introduce secular and profane instruments is to totally not understand what we are doing at the Mass. That is why the Church safeguards the integrity of Her liturgy. That is why the Popes, from Pope St. Gregory the Great (who reformed sacred music as early as the 6th century) to Pope St. Piux X (who further reformed it in 1903) and the late Pope John Paul II (who re-affirmed what his canonized predecessors wrote) and his successor, Pope Benedict XVI, who is an accomplished musician and who knows a great deal about sacred music, have written about the importance and integrity of the music used for the Holy Sacrifice.

Don’t get me wrong here. I offer no right/wrong opinion. I am theorizing why a decision for one tool over all others was chosen

 

[CWBetts]

Again, as I read your posts, you are not basing yourself on what the authoritative documents of the Church, specifically Musicam Sacram, say:

Electric guitars, keyboards, bongos, bass guitars and drum kits are suitable for secular music only. Let’s put it this way, if you hear Eddie Van Halen roaring up a mean solo on an electric guitar, that should give you a clear indication that this is not at all suitable for the Mass. The electric guitar already has its main association with secular music.

As I have said before, the Mass is not some experimental project. It is the Holy Sacrifice. It needs to be treated with dignity, solemnity, majesty and above all, respect.

I have already had my fill of such silliness. If you would allow me to quote the Sacred Scriptures:
1 Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise ye him for his mighty acts: praise ye him according to the multitude of his greatness.
3 Praise him with sound of trumpet: praise him with psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with timbrel and choir: praise him with strings and organs.
5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.

(Psalms 150, Douay-Rheims)

This should end this line of arrogance.

 

[benedictgal]

I have already had my fill of such silliness. If you would allow me to quote the Sacred Scriptures:
1 Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise ye him for his mighty acts: praise ye him according to the multitude of his greatness.
3 Praise him with sound of trumpet: praise him with psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with timbrel and choir: praise him with strings and organs.
5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.

(Psalms 150, Douay-Rheims)

This should end this line of arrogance.

Since when do you discount the authoritative documents of the Holy See. First of all, we are not a sola scriptura ecclesial community. We stand both on Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

Second, what you are quoting is not necessarily justification for using these instruments in the context of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These were not used for the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel, as dictated by God to Moses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

The Church is the New Israel and she bases her cultic sacrificial worship, in part, on what constituted the Temple sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel.

Arrogance, as I see it, is blatantly disregarding what the authoritative documents of the Holy See say (since Jesus charged St. Peter and His Successors to bind and loose, and, in the case of the Mass, Peter through the Popes, has the authority to set the norms and regulations) and using Scripture entirely out of context to justify what I consider to be a poor argument.

 

[pyro_alchemist]

Amen!

Why do you tune in and listen to these kinds of things?

It upsets you and there’s nothing you can do. It’s not your fight. So why do you keep asking for a punch in the face?

I’ve noticed this about other posters on CAF. Very conservative Catholics who love the ancient Mass and traditions and prefer Latin and chant will post, “I went to a Life Teen Mass last week and…”

They go on to describe the horror of it all.

Well, then why did they go to the Life Teen mass, knowing full well that they will hate it?!

Obviously sometimes people have to attend Masses that are not their personal choice due to work schedules, crises in the family, etc. I guess I find it a little tough to believe that there is no other Mass that they could have attended except for the Life Teen Mass. But it’s possible. I don’t think our city has any other late Sunday Mass option other than Life Teen.

But then why criticize it? You did what the Lord asks and fulfilled your obligation. Just give it to Him. Just put up with it for that one week and next week, get back on track with whatever Mass you love and find uplifting, and be grateful that you don’t have to attend a Mass that doesn’t fit you.

benedictgal, you’ve described many times how even in your own parish, music that is not the best continues. You seem to spend your whole life fighting for the perfect Mass, yet you are not in any position of authority to be able to effect changes in abuses or deficiences in the Mass. I may be wrong, but it really doesn’t sound to me like you are a layperson with an “in” into the diocese that gives you a little bit of “power” to get things changed.

It sounds like you talk to priests and bishops and write letters and most of them keep brushing you off.

This must be extremely frustrating and discouraging. Why do you keep it up? Why would you tune in to a Mariachi band knowing full well that this is not going to be something that you can appreciate and that it will make you upset and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. (That’s a really really tough music issue, because you’re talking about a whole different culture and language group, so you have to be very careful not to offend.)

Do you ever find a Mass that you love and that seems right to you? Then why not keep attending that Mass and allow all the other parishes to do Mass under the direction of their local authority, and let God convict him if he is doing something wrong? Why not stop wrestling and just nestle, as Corrie ten Boom always said? Pray for those who are in positions of authority to purify the Mass, and let them fight the fight.

I know you don’t want to give up, and that you keep hoping that your struggle will make a difference someday. But in the meantime, why deliberately visit Masses that you KNOW will be bad?

I really don’t get it. When something upsets me, and there’s nothing I can do about it, I try not to go there. It’s not good for me. It makes me a contentious, bitter, unhappy person who cannot enjoy experiences without looking for deficiencies and criticizing them. It stresses me and hurts me physically (blood pressure, cholestrol, joint pain, headaches, sleep disruptions, etc.)

For example, I didn’t watch Sen. Kennedy’s funeral Mass. I already had one infraction for “Uncharitable posts” concerning Sen. Kennedy. I find the whole situation extremely frustrating. So why watch his Mass, get all upset, rant and rave, send my blood pressure into the stratosphere, and in the end, have no ability to do anything about any of it, other than continue to vote prolife? Why allow Sen. Kennedy to steal anymore of my joy in this life?

And I ask the same question of you–why allow the Mass music to steal any more of your joy? If you are in a position to make changes, then Godspeed. But you aren’t. You’re just frustrating yourself.

This board is one of the exceptions to my rule to avoid trouble. I keep coming here and getting involved in conflicts. But there is enough pleasant and helpful stuff on this board and enough pleasant people who know a lot that it’s worth facing the occasional frustrating experience. benedictgal, you know a lot and are a great resource, and I almost always read your posts. But I think you’re fighting a battle that is not yours to fight.

I’ve wondered this about other people on this forum. It seems that the people who really despise the abuses the most are the ones who keep finding them. Then why don’t they stick with what’s safe? Or–if they continue to find abuses in EVERY Mass all over the world, then maybe??? they should consider that the Mass they’re looking for doesn’t really exist.

 

[Bluegoat]

Irrelevant. There is a large concert hall close to my home, complete with pipe organ. The hall is available for rent, which does not exclude religious organizations. If a Catholic parish would rent the hall for a large event, which would include a mass, it would be a foregone conclusion that the Wurlitzer would be used, even though it is used for secular purposes. The point being argued is that any instrument by its very nature is holier than another, which is silly.

The claim isn’t that one instrument is innately holier than another, which would indeed be silly. There are essentially two considerations.

One is whether the characteristics of the instrument, or style of music, supports or detracts from what is going on at the Eucharist. So if the musical instrument is being used to lead the people in singing, but is too quiet to be heard, or so loud it overwhelms the singing, that would not be appropriate or useful. This can vary depending on the setting - what works in a big cathedral might not work in a hospital chapel.

The other aspect is cultural associations. Imagine for example that in a particular culture a certain instrument is used in orgiastic religious ceremonies involving human sacrifice. Given the associations, it might be best for a Christian church of any kind to avoid that instrument in their worship.

That is an extreme example, but not unrealistic. Sometimes in the past reasons like that were indeed cause for disallowing some instruments. In the West, with a culture that has been broadly Christian for a long time, examples aren’t usually quite so clear.

So what do they want to avoid in Mass these days as far as cultural context goes? Instruments and music that will seem like a concert. Ones that suggest excessive emotionalism. Anything that is really associated with a trend that is against what Catholicism believes.

As for organs, guitars, and pianos. Well, I think people do need to remember that these things aren’t set in stone, as the organ was once a culturally inappropriate instrument in the Church. And the purest example of music for the Mass remains the human voice praying the liturgy in plainchant or simple polyphony. But there is a long association of organ music with religious services which is a significant advantage to that instrument, there is lots of excellent music written for it, and it works well for leading singing and has an almost vocal quality. (It can, of course, be played badly, or well but in a performance like way that overwhelms the liturgy.)

Guitar and piano - well, to be honest I think classical guitar can work well for liturgy in a more intimate setting as can piano. Guitar doesn’t always work as well for leading singers in plainchant of the liturgy IMO, and I would say there is, so far, less good religious music written for both, or perhaps it’s just more bad music for both. And they don’t have quite the same history of religious association. Which isn’t to say they couldn’t acquire it as the organ has done. At one time these were both really associated with things like music halls, but I would say that is less so now.

Electric guitar like in a rock band is another thing, I don’t think it or other rock music (which I like) works well in a Mass. It tends to seem concert-like, it can be too emotional, it is often distracting from the liturgy, and for too many people it’s association is sex drugs etc.

But none of this means that the instruments themselves are more or less holy. And it is clear that these kinds of considerations must be flexible depending on place and time.