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EasterJoy
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The Church doesn’t require the musical equivalent of a hair shirt, though.
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mick321
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Indeed, we are all dying. In fact everyone capable of playing the pipe organ for President Fillmore is already dead. No worries though. Professional musicians are a just phone call away. The American Federation of Musicians can refer you to competent organists in your area. 1-800-762-3444.
Although my preference is unaccompanied polyphony and chant, I am not opposed the use of instruments that can produce music worthy of the Holy Mass. Skilled musicians - with the proper respect for the task at hand - are capable of producing appropriate music on a variety of instruments.
Every musical instrument has a distinctive aural profile when played. They have visual profiles as well. Sometimes, it is the visual element that folks find distracting, objectionable, irreverent, even unholy. With the exception of the bells - traditionally used by altar servers - musical devices should never be permitted in the sanctuary.
I grew up in a Catholic Church that had a choir loft. All music - organ, voices, other instruments, live and recorded - originated from there. As such, the music seemed to have a more ethereal feel to it. Kind of like a choir of angels, no one saw the performers as their voices filled the room. I appreciated every note.
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Bluegoat
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I really like a good organ. I am a little less enthusiastic about the piano, but that is perhaps because I know it almost always means some bad 1960’s music in my church. I like a lot of the stuff the black baptist churches use with the piano.
The guitar can be very nice. Or not. Silent Night is in my mind the perfect example or Christian church music written for guitar.
And voice alone is great, if the people/choir can actually pull it off. I’ve been to churches where they did need some instrumental accompaniment to sing the right notes, or something close to the right notes.
The guitar can be very nice. Or not. Silent Night is in my mind the perfect example or Christian church music written for guitar.
And voice alone is great, if the people/choir can actually pull it off. I’ve been to churches where they did need some instrumental accompaniment to sing the right notes, or something close to the right notes.
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benedictgal
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However, the instruments need to be suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Again, you are coming from a Protestant ecclesial background that does not reflect what the Church’s stance is. That stance, as stated in Musicam Sacram, notes that if the instruments are strongly identified with secular music, they are not fit for use in the Mass.
It is not a matter of personal opinion. It takes into account the very nature and character of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. At the Mass, heaven and earth intersect and we have a direct encounter with the sovereign majesty of God. It is something sublime, majestic and solemn. Electric guitars, bass guitars and drum kits have no place in such an encounter.
You seem to think that organists are a heading the way of the Wooly Mammoth; do you have factual information to back this up or is this merely speculative opinion? We do have organists down here. In fact, one of them happens to be the president of the local university and he’s been playing at Mass, weddings and special liturgies. Furthermore, he also holds organ recitals at the Universty where young musicians actually have the chance to play the organ.
Cat, with all due respect, in many of your posts on this particular subject, you tend to downplay the importance of Tradition, especially when it comes to the realm of Sacred Music. As I read your posts, you also seem to regard whatever the Holy Father has written as mere personal opinion. Well, he is a classically trained musician. His brother was choirmaster at the Regensberg Cathedral for many, many years. The Holy Father has a very strong sense of what it is to have truly sacred Music. You talk about obedience, but, as I see it, may not realize that obedience is a two-way street. Inasmuch as you note that the documents give the ordinaries the chance to rule on what can and cannot be used in the Mass, such rulings must always be made taking the rich musical Tradition of the Church into account. When the Holy Father makes a highly valid observation about the state of music in the Church, I take his words very seriously. After all, he speaks from direct experience. He knows his material. Even as Cardinal Ratzinger, he spoke with great authority. His observations about rock music, especially the fact that it is incompatible with the Sacred Liturgy are valid and quite true.
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Cat
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Of course my information is speculative.
I live in a city 65 miles from Chicago. In other words, we don’t live in the sticks.
I have been involved with church, school, and community music in our community all my life. Our city has the oldest continuously-operating music club in the United States–this year, it will be 125 years old. The club is vibrant, active, and most musicians in the city belong to it. All kinds of music other than rock are presented during the club’s season.
We have a symphony orchestra in our city, a good one. We have several oratorio choirs. We have one of the best Boys’ Choirs in the world. We have a growing Community Children’s Choir.
The music competition that I am in charge of has been going on for 49 years, and involves over a hundred young competitors. (I wish we had more, but our competition is limited to one day, unlike other competitions like the Schubert.)
I could go on, but my point is to assure you that our city is not a musical backwater. Since we are so close to Chicago, we have a lot of musicians of high calibre who come to our city to teach or perform.
I’ve played piano in our city since I was a child. I’m considered an accompanist extraordinaire! I know almost all the pianists and organists, not only because of the competition, but because of the music club.
They tell me that there are no organist students in the area. They tell me that the universities are closing down their organ programs, since there have been no applicants for years.
Perhaps our city is an island, and the rest of the U.S. has a healthy contingency of organis students. It’s certainly possible, since our city vies for the highest unemployment in the country. Organists and pianists don’t get paid much here, and unless they teach in a school, they won’t be able to survive on a church music minister’s salary.
Catholic churches in our area are mainly accompanied by piano, although the Cathedral has a wonderful organist. There is another organist in town who plays almost all the funerals and weddings in the Catholic Churches. (Many people don’t want piano at their funerals.) She is OK, but hardly a skilled organist. Just competent. There are a few other organists who play in Catholic churches who are…not competent. They could never handle a pipe organ.
And for that matter, there are very few pianists in the Catholic churches.
The best organists in town play at the mainline Protestant churches, which allow them total freedom. (Several of these churches generally have total freedom of doctrine, too. Several have openly gay pastors, and most have women pastors.)
At the evangelical Protestant churches, most of the music is done with soundtracks or praise and worship band. Most of the organs haven’t been used in years during worship services. They open them up for funerals, and hire one of the “good” organists.
All in all, it’s a pretty sad situation for the organ. There really aren’t very many organists in our city. You are blessed to have so many in your cities.
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mcmitton
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Before my time, our church had an organ and a wonderful organist who sang divinely, so I am told.
By the time we arrived 10 years ago, there was a guitarist who sang beautifully and played very well with many techniques other than STRUM. She can play s classical style, but the hymns usually don’t match that style. She also had a keyboardist who accompanied her and he was a terrific (name removed by moderator)rovisation player and sang beautifully, a former Fred Waring singer.
Alternating Sundays we had a self-taught [so he claimed, and probably true] keyboardist who does not sing at all. By now the organ had disappeared and we had a Roland keyboard, with 128 voices, only a few suitable for church.
These volunteers used *Glory & Praise *[1987] and the first Gather and I cannot say that I enjoyed all of the hymns musically.
Fast forward to now. We now have added GIA and OCP to our hymn selection. We still have no organ, our male singer has gone, and every other Sunday, I acompany the guitarist on the keyboard using mostly “organ” voices and once in a blue moon I sing. We have only a Christmas choir, occasionally singing during Easter. We are small in number, but produce a good sound. We do what we can with what we have.
We now have psalmists to sing the psalm every Sunday, and have learned another Mass setting.
I have an organ at home, but like the Roland keyboard at church, it is an instrument not designed for church - bells, whistles, rhythms, etc. I am able to, however, use drawbars to setup most of the simpler organ voices. A full pedal board is limited in its voices to about 3.
When my ship comes in [lottery at $1.00 twice a week] our little church will have a reasonably new DIGITAL organ, Allen, Rogers, or that ilk.
And I’ll give up singing!!! 
And we’ll get new hymnals of a more classical style.
By the time we arrived 10 years ago, there was a guitarist who sang beautifully and played very well with many techniques other than STRUM. She can play s classical style, but the hymns usually don’t match that style. She also had a keyboardist who accompanied her and he was a terrific (name removed by moderator)rovisation player and sang beautifully, a former Fred Waring singer.
Alternating Sundays we had a self-taught [so he claimed, and probably true] keyboardist who does not sing at all. By now the organ had disappeared and we had a Roland keyboard, with 128 voices, only a few suitable for church.
These volunteers used *Glory & Praise *[1987] and the first Gather and I cannot say that I enjoyed all of the hymns musically.
Fast forward to now. We now have added GIA and OCP to our hymn selection. We still have no organ, our male singer has gone, and every other Sunday, I acompany the guitarist on the keyboard using mostly “organ” voices and once in a blue moon I sing. We have only a Christmas choir, occasionally singing during Easter. We are small in number, but produce a good sound. We do what we can with what we have.
We now have psalmists to sing the psalm every Sunday, and have learned another Mass setting.
I have an organ at home, but like the Roland keyboard at church, it is an instrument not designed for church - bells, whistles, rhythms, etc. I am able to, however, use drawbars to setup most of the simpler organ voices. A full pedal board is limited in its voices to about 3.
When my ship comes in [lottery at $1.00 twice a week] our little church will have a reasonably new DIGITAL organ, Allen, Rogers, or that ilk.
And I’ll give up singing!!! And we’ll get new hymnals of a more classical style.
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ELROD
Guest
I like to play a guitar, I love the sound of guitar, but, not during mass. The most poignant masses I have attended were the ones with no accompaniment, no song leader, just people singing old songs they knew and loved.
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Bluegoat
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I’ll add that it has also been my observation that there are less organists available. In the city and town, many organs have been replaced by electric contraptions, pianos, and in some churches, praise bands. The old pipe organs have been removed.
The rural churches are also using electric keyboards. The old pump organs they used to have are not maintained, and most parishes don’t have anyone who can play them. Occasionally they get sold at auction for a few dollars.
The rural churches are also using electric keyboards. The old pump organs they used to have are not maintained, and most parishes don’t have anyone who can play them. Occasionally they get sold at auction for a few dollars.
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CB_Catholic
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I feel bad that there are so few organists in your area. We have a pipe organ in our church, built around 1990, and besides our music director, there are at least 3 or 4 others who can play it, and play it well. We have 6 weekend Masses and all are accompanied by organists from our parish or the music director. We also have a piano that is used to accompany the organ at times or even played solo. I can assure you that it does not sound like a music hall instrument. The choice of music, however, is another matter, but lately they have been playing more and more of the traditional hymns. The guitar is rarely used except for Lifeteen Masses, and once in a while at the 9AM Mass where there is a small chorale, but not as a solo instrument. Also, around here, most of the churches have an organ. It does help that the local University has an excellent School of Music, but I don’t know how many were trained there. But around here, there does not seem to be a shortage of organists, and most of the larger Protestant churches have them, and often have sacred music concerts.
I am just hoping that they get more up to speed on the more traditional hymns in our parish, that is my only complaint, as we have fine musicians and many beautiful trained voices among our parishoners.
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Sarah_Angel
Guest
Say what?
I have been Roman Catholic my entire life, and my home parish is a charismatic one where we use guitar, piano, and sometimes, GASP, bass guitars and drums!
You worship at that church and feel the power of the Holy Spirit at work among the congregation. How can the Holy Spirit be present when devil instruments are being used, you ask? Well, maybe it’s because they’re not devil instruments.
I’m sorry for my sarcasm and that I’m putting words in your mouth; I know that you didn’t actually call them “devil instruments,” but that’s the impression I’m getting from your post and I am merely trying to show how ridiculous it sounds, at least in my opinion.
The key is using these instruments in the appropriate manner. For example, beating the drums while the host is being consecrated, of course, is inappropriate (God forbid that ever happen at a Mass, Amen). The music liturgy group at my Catholic high school had an over-abundance of rock instruments that I thought was really annoying; too many instruments and not enough vocalists. You really don’t need 3 guitars, 2 basses, and a drummer amped to the max while there is one guy “leading” the singing and his mic is turned halfway down while the 3 girls sharing a mic hardly have any sound coming from their mouths, let alone the fact that their mic is hardly even on.
I would just like to know where in the CCC it says to only use an organ for worship. As many people on this thread have said, it simply isn’t realistic to expect every church to use a pipe organ for all their worship services. I think it’s awesome when it’s possible, don’t get me wrong, but when it isn’t, you’ll just have to make due with some peaceful guitar and piano. Just because a guitar and piano are used, it doesn’t mean that it’s noisy and irreverent.
Also, my first post on the second page was completely ignored, I felt. I asked if guitars took away from the Real Presence of the Eucharist and nobody answered my question.
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benedictgal
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First of all, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not designed to be a regulatory document. It is a teaching document; thus, not everything pertaining to the Church is contained in it.Say what?
I have been Roman Catholic my entire life, and my home parish is a charismatic one where we use guitar, piano, and sometimes, GASP, bass guitars and drums!
You worship at that church and feel the power of the Holy Spirit at work among the congregation. How can the Holy Spirit be present when devil instruments are being used, you ask? Well, maybe it’s because they’re not devil instruments.
I’m sorry for my sarcasm and that I’m putting words in your mouth; I know that you didn’t actually call them “devil instruments,” but that’s the impression I’m getting from your post and I am merely trying to show how ridiculous it sounds, at least in my opinion.
The key is using these instruments in the appropriate manner. For example, beating the drums while the host is being consecrated, of course, is inappropriate (God forbid that ever happen at a Mass, Amen). The music liturgy group at my Catholic high school had an over-abundance of rock instruments that I thought was really annoying; too many instruments and not enough vocalists. You really don’t need 3 guitars, 2 basses, and a drummer amped to the max while there is one guy “leading” the singing and his mic is turned halfway down while the 3 girls sharing a mic hardly have any sound coming from their mouths, let alone the fact that their mic is hardly even on.
I would just like to know where in the CCC it says to only use an organ for worship. As many people on this thread have said, it simply isn’t realistic to expect every church to use a pipe organ for all their worship services. I think it’s awesome when it’s possible, don’t get me wrong, but when it isn’t, you’ll just have to make due with some peaceful guitar and piano. Just because a guitar and piano are used, it doesn’t mean that it’s noisy and irreverent.
Also, my first post on the second page was completely ignored, I felt. I asked if guitars took away from the Real Presence of the Eucharist and nobody answered my question.
Second, I would invite you to read the authoritative, liturgical documents issued by the Holy See. These documents, including Musicam Sacram, Redeptionis Sacramentum and Liturgiam Authenticam, regulate how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is to be celebrated and what is to be used for this celebration.
Here is what Musicam Sacram notes:
You will note that footnote #44 makes reference to another document, the Instruction on Sacred Music, promulgated by Pope Pius XII:
I do not know if youi were being sarcastic when you asked about the Real Presence. Jesus is present at the Mass, regardless of how many abuses there occur in the liturgy, the poor, slipshod quality of the music, or the bad homily. However, because we are in the presence of the divine majesty of the Triune God, we must make every effort to have a celebration that is worthy of His dignity.
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Lorrie
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Assembly of God flashback!!!:crying:
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ibkc
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I’ll answer: guitars played inappropriately, as they too often are in mass (in my experience) don’t negate the Real Presence but they sure can distract the attention of the worshipers away from it.Also, my first post on the second page was completely ignored, I felt. I asked if guitars took away from the Real Presence of the Eucharist and nobody answered my question.
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Micki
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As a former Mass guitarist, I’ve just gotten darn tired of this instrument at Mass. It’s gotten old!!
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happilycatholic
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We have a harmonica! I’m not particularly fond of harmonica music, so I may be biased but I just don’t like it at mass.
This Sunday at mass they played the thing during the Communion song.
I think an acoustic guitar (at the appropriate time) can be okay. I’m just old-fashioned and really don’t see a need for instruments at all. We have many people with wonderful voices and I’d rather stick with that myself.
I guess I’m just a fuddy duddy.
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Brooklyn
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I’m probably a fuddy duddy right with you. One of the most beautiful Masses I ever went to was with 3 men singing Gregorian chant throughout the Mass, acapella. All 3 had beautiful voices, and it felt a little bit like heaven to me.We have a harmonica! I’m not particularly fond of harmonica music, so I may be biased but I just don’t like it at mass.
This Sunday at mass they played the thing during the Communion song.
I think an acoustic guitar (at the appropriate time) can be okay. I’m just old-fashioned and really don’t see a need for instruments at all. We have many people with wonderful voices and I’d rather stick with that myself.
I guess I’m just a fuddy duddy.
At a Church near me they have started - are you ready? - a Jazz Mass. They have piano, trombone and drums, and probably other instruments as well. I only went once. It was the weirdest thing I ever experienced, and I really felt badly for the priest, because this particular priest loves to sing during Mass, and it just wasn’t possible with these players “riffing” during Mass. Ugh.
Mary
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zab
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I can’t think of the name of it at the moment, but another instrument that I haven’t seen in a long time (and never really liked it to begin with), was a hand held harp of some sort that was strummed. Does anyone remember something like this?
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Bluegoat
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I used to attend a church that at Easter always sang a Mozart Mass setting, there were some string instruments for that occasion, although normally there was only the organ and choir. It was very beautiful and not irreverent, but I can’t say it was my favorite.
I once saw a harpsichord used, it was quite nice. But it didn’t play the whole setting, I believe just a motet and a voluntary at the end (I’m not sure if it’s still called a voluntary if it’s not played on the organ?)
I once saw a harpsichord used, it was quite nice. But it didn’t play the whole setting, I believe just a motet and a voluntary at the end (I’m not sure if it’s still called a voluntary if it’s not played on the organ?)
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ledwith
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As i believe the heavens are full of the most amazing sounds,I think the lord pehaps has enough top quality.would he more appreciates our heart felt attempts rather than a paticular instrument.or even quality.I am sure some even make him smile.I would defnitely say however that there are guitarists in heaven.maybe they have their own room in the many rooms of mansion.I love mass and i am not put off.To be honest though i prefer organ
after that guitars,hapsichords,flute,whatever.In the right spirit .it’s ok with me.
God Bless (all)
after that guitars,hapsichords,flute,whatever.In the right spirit .it’s ok with me.
God Bless (all)
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