P
pnewton
Guest
It find the way they are used may or may not be conducive to worship. I believe they are not as useful as either an organ or piano, but where such things are lacking, they are fine.
- Status
A
aliciar
Guest
At my spanish mass, they would use the manual guitars, not electric and also they’ve used violins, a keyboard, and tambourines. I think they sound great in Mass. I’ve also been to english mass and they either use the organ or a keyboard. My favorite type of singing would be where a choir of priests or nuns sing. really beautiful.
J
Jimsdun
Guest
How many guitarists can’t even read music? Just learn 3 chords (G, D and A Minor) and you’re a guitarist.Well, as a guitarist (not a virtuoso, but not as bad as most I hear in parishes either), I can tell you that it generally hurts my ears to hear out-of-tune 12-strings hammering away at one rhythm and one strum, no matter what the song is. It’s just painful. Argh!
Guitars can be beautiful. But so many people have them and so few can really play them, at least, what you so often hear. I think it leads to general sloppiness and more of the false sense of “active participation” in the Mass that is already rampant. Everybody and their brother has a guitar and, for some reason, they all think they have to play it in church.
Argh argh argh!
D
Disciple96
Guest
So true!!! Oy! I love the guitar, love the way it sounds, love the way it feels, love the way I can carry it around with me, unlike the piano. But I absolutely cannot stand to hear someone butcher church music that is already barely what I consider to be musical on a low or high quality guitar. And, oh, how often the worst one of the bunch has the best guitar! As if he thought that by buying the best he could afford, it would make him sound like a real musician, though he can barely play that one strum they all play.
What is it with that one particular strum anyway? It drives me up the wall! Gives me plenty to offer up during the Mass, that’s for sure. Wonder if that’s part of God’s Divine Plan, huh? To give us all this stuff to offer up…Nah, that’d just be too cruel.
D
Disciple96
Guest
Heh.
D
Don9of11
Guest
I’m a big fan of organ music as well. I concede I do like to listen to classical guitar arrangements. When we had a full choir we would have french horns and flute at Christmas and Easter. I think any brass or wind instrument can find a niche in church music. Acoustically they are more pleasing to the ear and have a richness that strumming a guitar can never match. I haven’t heard to many pianos at church in my day, but there was one time, our choir was asked to sing at another catholic church, I don’t remember the event, but their organ wasn’t working and all we had was a piano. It wasn’t bad but I prefer the organ.
P
Paganus
Guest
I find rhythm and percussion instruments distracting during Mass. It is hard for me to lift my heart to the Lord while shaking my booty.
:whackadoo::egyptian::takeoff:
:whackadoo::egyptian::takeoff:
P
Prometheum_x
Guest
This is begging the question. Indeed, it is true that instruments that are unsuitable for the Liturgy should not be used, but usually it is simply stated that guitars and drums are unsuitable, rather than demonstrated why this is the case
At the beginning of the 20th century, pianos were explicitly banned from use in the liturgy, because of their unsuitability. Why were they deemed not unsuitable? Not because of their sound, but because of their heavy association with the concert hall and bar/pub type settings. It is for a similar reason that the organ was not immediately adopted into Christian liturgies, because of its association with the orgiastic music of pagan worship.
I do believe that there is some association between electric guitars and basses and secular music, and as such they need to be used with extreme care and with sensitivity to the attitudes of the local community. Both the electric guitar and bass can be played in a manner that resembles their classical ancestors, but can also take advantage of the many ways of processing electronic sound in order to create a beautiful, harmonious sound that complements the other instruments. The same applies to the drum set – if used as a percussion kit, and the acoustics can support that sort of percussion, it can be an excellent addition to the music. Of course, this requires competent musicians, but so does the organ.
The manner in which these instruments are played is crucial. If a musician insists on playing any instrument as if they are at a rock concert, then they should not be permitted to play. As Benedict XVI wrote, rock is incompatible with the Liturgy. Rock is a style, a genre, a musical attitude – not a set of instruments.
This tension between organs and guitars, traditional and contemporary exists because of the difficulty of creating new art that is also inspired by the same spirit of the great Christian art that preceded it. Unfortunately, I think that most (myself included) respond to this tension in one of two ways – 1) lazily creating new art without doing the hard work of refining it and making sure that it is truly animated by the same Spirit which inspired the Gregorian chants or 2) only using or imitating the classic Christian works of art, because it is safe.
In terms of specific instruments, I will let the competent territorial authority make those decisions.
B
benedictgal
Guest
I was tuning into the Mariachi Mass at the Cathedral on my way to my own parish. It was very discouraging. They were playing a medley of Resucito and Hacia Ti Morada Santa, which was rather bad. The penitential Rite was way too joyful and the Gloria did not match the approved text at all.
They were playing with way too much of a flourish. It was just awful. The guitars were strumming and the trumpets were blaring. We have a competent organist at the Cathedral who can sing in English, Latin and Spanish. Why do we replace beautiful, sacred music with tripe?
Regarding the authoritative documents, Musicam Sacram notes that if the instruments have too much of an association with secular music, they should not be used. This rules out drum kits, electric guitars and bass guitars, bongo drums and the like.
They were playing with way too much of a flourish. It was just awful. The guitars were strumming and the trumpets were blaring. We have a competent organist at the Cathedral who can sing in English, Latin and Spanish. Why do we replace beautiful, sacred music with tripe?
Regarding the authoritative documents, Musicam Sacram notes that if the instruments have too much of an association with secular music, they should not be used. This rules out drum kits, electric guitars and bass guitars, bongo drums and the like.
E
excelsus
Guest
I don’t like guitars during Mass. With me, it’s either organ or unaccompanied chant.
Actually, now that I think about it…hearing Mozart’s Requiem at an actual funeral would be really cool. I don’t mean the death part, I just mean how the solemnity of those would go together…yeah.
Actually, now that I think about it…hearing Mozart’s Requiem at an actual funeral would be really cool. I don’t mean the death part, I just mean how the solemnity of those would go together…yeah.
D
Disciple96
Guest
Okay, I was reading your post and…
that made me grin. A sad painful grin but a grin, nonetheless. But for some reason when I got to…
right about here…
I snorted out loud.
C
Cat
Guest
Why do you tune in and listen to these kinds of things?
It upsets you and there’s nothing you can do. It’s not your fight. So why do you keep asking for a punch in the face?
I’ve noticed this about other posters on CAF. Very conservative Catholics who love the ancient Mass and traditions and prefer Latin and chant will post, “I went to a Life Teen Mass last week and…”
They go on to describe the horror of it all.
Well, then why did they go to the Life Teen mass, knowing full well that they will hate it?!
Obviously sometimes people have to attend Masses that are not their personal choice due to work schedules, crises in the family, etc. I guess I find it a little tough to believe that there is no other Mass that they could have attended except for the Life Teen Mass. But it’s possible. I don’t think our city has any other late Sunday Mass option other than Life Teen.
But then why criticize it? You did what the Lord asks and fulfilled your obligation. Just give it to Him. Just put up with it for that one week and next week, get back on track with whatever Mass you love and find uplifting, and be grateful that you don’t have to attend a Mass that doesn’t fit you.
benedictgal, you’ve described many times how even in your own parish, music that is not the best continues. You seem to spend your whole life fighting for the perfect Mass, yet you are not in any position of authority to be able to effect changes in abuses or deficiences in the Mass. I may be wrong, but it really doesn’t sound to me like you are a layperson with an “in” into the diocese that gives you a little bit of “power” to get things changed.
It sounds like you talk to priests and bishops and write letters and most of them keep brushing you off.
This must be extremely frustrating and discouraging. Why do you keep it up? Why would you tune in to a Mariachi band knowing full well that this is not going to be something that you can appreciate and that it will make you upset and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. (That’s a really really tough music issue, because you’re talking about a whole different culture and language group, so you have to be very careful not to offend.)
Do you ever find a Mass that you love and that seems right to you? Then why not keep attending that Mass and allow all the other parishes to do Mass under the direction of their local authority, and let God convict him if he is doing something wrong? Why not stop wrestling and just nestle, as Corrie ten Boom always said? Pray for those who are in positions of authority to purify the Mass, and let them fight the fight.
I know you don’t want to give up, and that you keep hoping that your struggle will make a difference someday. But in the meantime, why deliberately visit Masses that you KNOW will be bad?
I really don’t get it. When something upsets me, and there’s nothing I can do about it, I try not to go there. It’s not good for me. It makes me a contentious, bitter, unhappy person who cannot enjoy experiences without looking for deficiencies and criticizing them. It stresses me and hurts me physically (blood pressure, cholestrol, joint pain, headaches, sleep disruptions, etc.)
For example, I didn’t watch Sen. Kennedy’s funeral Mass. I already had one infraction for “Uncharitable posts” concerning Sen. Kennedy. I find the whole situation extremely frustrating. So why watch his Mass, get all upset, rant and rave, send my blood pressure into the stratosphere, and in the end, have no ability to do anything about any of it, other than continue to vote prolife? Why allow Sen. Kennedy to steal anymore of my joy in this life?
And I ask the same question of you–why allow the Mass music to steal any more of your joy? If you are in a position to make changes, then Godspeed. But you aren’t. You’re just frustrating yourself.
This board is one of the exceptions to my rule to avoid trouble. I keep coming here and getting involved in conflicts. But there is enough pleasant and helpful stuff on this board and enough pleasant people who know a lot that it’s worth facing the occasional frustrating experience. benedictgal, you know a lot and are a great resource, and I almost always read your posts. But I think you’re fighting a battle that is not yours to fight.
I’ve wondered this about other people on this forum. It seems that the people who really despise the abuses the most are the ones who keep finding them. Then why don’t they stick with what’s safe? Or–if they continue to find abuses in EVERY Mass all over the world, then maybe??? they should consider that the Mass they’re looking for doesn’t really exist.
A
ac_claire
Guest
I understand what you’re trying to say Cat, but I think your logic is a bit problematic. I don’t know of any Catholic with traditional leanings here who would deliberately start attending a Life Teen Mass (for instance) on a regular basis. When you’re Catholic there is an assumption that you can attend the regular masses at your parish and more or less know what to expect. When a person experiences liturgical abuses at Mass it’s very often at their own parish, at a Mass that they’ve attended before and that’s precicely the reason why the abuses are so troubling.
Also, since we’re obligated to go to Mass every week, frequently a Catholic will find themselves at an unfamiliar parish because they’re travelling or because work or family obligations limited their options so they were forced to go to the Sunday evening Mass at a parish near work instead of their home parish, etc. The reasons are endless. But I can’t in a million years imagine someone like benedictgal deciding to regularly attend a mariarchi Mass or charismatic Life Teen Mass by choice. I don’t think anyone here does that.
C
Cat
Guest
Perhaps you’re right and I’m just noticing something that really isn’t all that common.
But it seems that there’s just an awful lot of complaining about Masses, and it seems like a lot of the people complaining are talking about Masses that they visited (not their regular Mass).
Like I said in my other post, if people travel, then they will visit Masses and inevitably, some of those Masses will be doozies. I’ve visited several dozen Masses while travelling (figure skating competitions–not me, my husband and daughters), and I’ve never run across anything seriously wrong. But others just seem to be luckless when it comes to Masses on vacation. I feel bad for them.
But why are they visiting around in their own neck of the woods, unless they are in an official capacity (e.g., Liturgy Director for the Diocese)? That’s what I’m wondering about, ac claire. It seems that there are an awful lot of posts on this forum from people who say, “I decided to visit the Life Teen Mass” or the “folk Mass”–why?! Why not just stay away from that which hurts you and stick with the Mass that does you good and builds you up?
It seems to me that when someone who prefers a Mass with chant and other kinds of traditional music that is appropriate for the liturgy “tune ins” to Mariachi Mass, they are asking for an hour of frustration. Why not just say, “Oops, Mariachi Mass, not interested!” and tune to another channel? What good will it do to listen to something that you can do absolutely nothing about? I don’t get this at all. I don’t think that undirected frustration and anger does anyone any good at all.
B
benedictgal
Guest
You make a lot of sense. A couple of months ago, I accompanied my dad to Mass at his new parish, the Cathedral. Little did we know that there would be Mariachis playing at the anticipated Sunday Mass (5:30PM Saturday). It was very problematic, but, since I was with my dad, I could not very well get up and leave. I was already getting a headache and the loud, boisterous music made things even worse, compounded by the fact that none of the settings the band used were in compliance with the Roman Missal.
Because, as you noted, we are obliged to attend Sunday Mass, it’s almost like playing Russian Roulette, especially when you are either out of town, or have had some work-related function that compels you to find the last possible liturgy available (or, in some cases, the earliest one) in order to satisfy your filial duty. It is not easy and sometimes, it becomes a sacrifice when assisting at the Sacrifice.
My parochial vicar has had to assist at many parishes, filling in for the pastor when he is on vacation. Often, he does feel like Jesus wanting to take the whips out, especially when the music is particularly bad (he has celebrated Mass where the church uses Mexican-conjunto bar-type music) or when the parish does something that is 180-degrees to what is required in the Roman Missal. As the celebrant, it is difficult for him to bring the faithful into the proper sense of prayerful, solemn and dignified worship with all of that noise and whatnaugt going on during the Mass.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
Well, I attend an Anglican church, but I think i can speak somewhat to this particular problem. Our situation has parallels - there was a huge change in the liturgy due to the influence of the liturgical movement
in the 70s and 80s. In many cases it was accompanied by a lot of changes in music, watering down of feast days, loss of meaning in certain traditions like the church year and colours, and even a new lectionary. And, I’ll say it, a hell of a lot of really bad music.Now, some parishes kept a tradition much like what they had before, especially here in Canada where the old liturgy remained in use. People have to some extent sought out such parishes.
But in the majority, the new is in. The older style is often relegated to an 8am service, or is only once a month. The newer style is the main service, with music, with a nursery, with coffee hour.
So those that would rather be at the more traditional liturgy, without the bad music, are left without real access to those things. Some end up going to the liturgy they don’t like because they feel it is important to see the rest of the congregation, or because their kids want to be in Sunday School.
And almost always, the big celebrations of the year, Holy Week, Christmas etc, are in the new style. Or special services that people are asked to come out to as members of the parish. So people go because they feel an obligation, and are really put out by the terrible stuff they see. (I remember one special service dedicated to music where we had a vissiting high school choir. Our teen group was put in charge of arranging much of the rest of the service. The priest clearly expected their group director to oversee them more, because it was a travesty. I think there were a number of shocked people. The school choir was good though.)
So people end up coming to these services because they want to be part of the parish, or because someone asks them to, or they live in a small community and that is what is available. Essentially, people have been pushed out of the worship they had, other things haven’t been added, it has replaced what came before.
My observation of Catholic parishes is that it is quite similar. If people want to be part of the parish and not some ghetto element, they end up coming o events that shock them, or there simply aren’t other options in some places.
S
StLawrenceFan
Guest
—I agree. And personally, at my Church there are far too many stanzas sung on each song. Used to be 2 stanzas, now often times 4.
Too much, imo. Draws the Mass out far too long unnecessarily.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
Interesting, I’ve always noticed the CCs around here seem to cut the hymns off at two stanzas, rather than sing the whole thing. So there is no way to sing the whole of St Patrick’s Breastplate, for example. But perhaps it’s relative, if its a bad song, less is more?
But why would they have longer bad ones, and cut off the good ones?
S
Sarabande
Guest
I think it sometimes depends on the priest who is celebrating the mass. Actually, often times in the various parishes where I’ve worked in and substituted, it is usually the priest who says how many verses they want and so forth. In my parish, a few years ago when there was a different pastor and various different priests in residence, each one had a different say as to when they wanted the hymns to end, how many stanzas, etc. ( Our parish does almost all traditional hymns and our choir does well-composed music from various centuries, including polyphony and chant. ) There were 6 priests at our parish, so we had to be aware of which ones were saying the mass each time in order to not either go over or not sing enough. A couple priests wanted the processional hymn to end immediately when they reached the sanctuary. It didn’t matter if we only got through one verse. Other priests wanted all the verses sung.
I’m not sure because I haven’t really experienced this where I typically work, but now that you mention it, I remember one of the former priests in residence at our parish was one who was really into cheesy, broadway musical style, bad hymns (which we do not do at our parish). He tended to be the most adamant, and sometimes even mean, about keeping the hymns as short as possible when he said mass. Perhaps he just didn’t like the hymns and it was less about keeping the hymns short.
- Status