What do you think about guitars during mass?

[CTA1967]

My feeling about this thread is very sad. It seems that the focus of achieving sanctity is lost here and the purpose has become winning a debate. You can win a debate. You can be knowledgeable of documents and rules. You can follow them all and you can still miss the mark of sanctity.

The liturgy is meant to sanctify God’s people. It is not an object of debate, but a means to holiness. It is good for everyone to express and share their understanding. That is part of our tradition. You need a “promoter of justice”. You need to look at the strengths and weaknesses on how we celebrate liturgy. You need to share those for others to consider.

But we need to also learn when to back off and let people think about things. It seems that there are two sides here and neither wants to back off and let the other pray and think.

Silence has to be part of this process of understanding the liturgy and understanding how to celebrate it with reference and great love. Once we know the facts, then we have to retreat into silence and think, rather than continue engaged in a debate. He who debates without ceasing has little time to be holy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Hi JR, thanks for dropping in. Yes, now that you point it out, this whole debate does seem to take away the point of all the documents we’re quoting. Perhaps we should all give this a rest until we get an answer from Ask and Apologist and Cat’s Bishop?

 

[JReducation]

Hi JR, thanks for dropping in. Yes, now that you point it out, this whole debate does seem to take away the point of all the documents we’re quoting. Perhaps we should all give this a rest until we get an answer from Ask and Apologist and Cat’s Bishop?

I believe that people should get answers from their bishops and from silent prayer. The great reformers were always humble servants of God. The great defenders of the faith were always the most humble men and women and certainly practiced what St. Francis de Sales calls, “holy indifference.” The most fertile time for sanctity is when there is chaos and confusion, because it is a time to be faithful to what we are called to do. In this case, we are called to be faithful to the holy sacrifice and to be in love with Christ on the altar, even when the rules and rubrics are bent. It is our love and our fidelity to our vocation that will be our saving grace, not our correctness about rules.

The rules are important, but they must lead us to silence so that we can hear the gentle whisper of Christ in our lives leading us to the perfection of charity. Maybe it’s time to pack it in on this thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[benedictgal]

Few subjects draw deeply charged opinions as that of music in the Mass. However, we need to always look to the authoritative documents of the Holy See for guidance. The documents have been provided, many times over. Some have tried to derail the documents by bringing in things that really have no relevence. Others have tried to find fault with those of us who cite them and choose to take what the Pontiffs have written at their word.

Others, with all due respect, have cited Scriptural passages that really have no relevence, since the psalms in question do not reflect the official Temple cultic sacrificial worship practiced by Ancient Israel, as dictated by God the Father to Moses.

Nowhere in the MP that Pope St. Pius X worte does he indicate that this was merely for Italy. Innovations spread like wildfire. What was problematic then is still problematic today, only some of us have blinders and choose to ignore the glaring problems.

With all due respect to the AAA, they are not the Magisterium. While they serve as an important tool of evangelization, they are not the Church. Cat;s bishop can only rule on his territorial See, using, I sincerely hope, the authoritative documents of the Holy See as his guiding principle. Thus, what the bishop does in his own See is not necessarily applicable to every diocese. Just as what the USCCB petitions Rome to do is only applicable to the United States and not Bulgaria.

 

[benedictgal]

Cat, you put that so well! It does seem that two or three different people are reading the same stuff and coming to logical, but opposing conclusions. Like, what exactly does “common” mean? As another former protestant evangelical, I really like that I can just trust my pastor and my bishop (both of whom are orthodox) and not have to figure everything out myself. I know there is a responsibility not to be blindly obedient, but they are accountable so that I don’t have to be.

But, we are all accountable, to a certain extent, Evelyn. I am not one to wash my hands. If we know that something is not right, it is our filial duty as Catholics to charitably and respectfully point these matters out.

Redemptionis Sacramentum asserts that the faithful have the right to a Mass that is celebrated according to the norms, rubrics and documents of the Church. It is not disobedience to point out when something is wrong. There will probably be some sort of stigma attached to doing the right thing, but, I would rather pay that price than be silent.

 

[pnewton]

Few subjects draw deeply charged opinions as that of music in the Mass.

But the topic can also be a great unifier. I know that I have learned more here from those I do not agree with. In reality, all we really have to answer to is our priest and bishop, chain of command and all. I think the issue addressed by RS only kicks in if the rubrics are being violated (changing the words, for example).

At Church, my emotions are tempered by not being a staff musician. The way I see it, if anyone wants to do better, they are free to take over. I do not think anyone at my parish has ever been angry over music. As for me, I can always find another place of ministry in the Church when my services are no longer required or wanted.

 

[CTA1967]

With all due respect to the AAA, they are not the Magisterium. While they serve as an important tool of evangelization, they are not the Church. Cat;s bishop can only rule on his territorial See, using, I sincerely hope, the authoritative documents of the Holy See as his guiding principle. Thus, what the bishop does in his own See is not necessarily applicable to every diocese. Just as what the USCCB petitions Rome to do is only applicable to the United States and not Bulgaria.

But on the same note (F#, I think), how much authority do we have to interpret the exact meaning of Church documents, as posters on a forum? I think JR is giving us sound advice.

 

[Sarabande]

Hi JR, thanks for dropping in. Yes, now that you point it out, this whole debate does seem to take away the point of all the documents we’re quoting. Perhaps we should all give this a rest until we get an answer from Ask and Apologist and Cat’s Bishop?

Or perhaps even asking the Director of Worship for each individual’s dioceses? They are the ones who are in charge of how the liturgy should be for each diocese and are supposed to oversee things for the bishop and are trained in liturgy. A bishop from larger dioceses would more than likely be very busy to answer these questions. In my diocese the DofW resides at the diocese cathedral parish, which is my parish. He follows the rules so stringently, that because hymns is “option 3”, he believes hymns should be used as latter resort. Thus our parish usually does the propers which is, I believe, is Option 1. We also do a Latin OF mass and chant much of that, as well as have a choir during most of the year which also incorporates polyphony and other motets. Unaccompanied and accompanied singing as well as only the organ is used there - although it is a cathedral, so the standards and quality are understandably different there.

That said, I do know just from my own diocese, that even though the DofW is supposed to represent the Bishop and what is required for the liturgy at least in this particular diocese, there are those who have fought what is asked of them or just completely ignored the DofW. We do it because we’re at the cathedral and have the responsibility to represent what the bishop requires and we have the “boss” there who was placed in charge by the bishop to oversee things. And fortunately we have one of the best organists in the area, an incredible musician, as well as someone who really does his homework with reading the documents as well as learning as much as possible, receiving training in chant, etc. Our parish also has to set an example of what is supposed to be appropriate for a respectful, spiritual and reverent liturgy. I do know for fact that to a couple music people in other parishes, the music program in our parish represents everything reprehensible and horrible and they don’t want to accept what the diocese is requiring because it requires them to be more traditional especially in terms of using more of the chant propers, etc. Some of the things they said was quite unchristian.

It’s very sad that liturgical music can be such a dividing subject, when it shouldn’t be.

 

[benedictgal]

Referring to boldface above.

FrancisB and benedictgal, when I was evangelical Protestant, I read, studied, and drew conclusions myself.

This is the hallmark of evangelical Protestantism, especially Baptist evangelical Protestantism–reading, studying, and drawing conclusions ourselves.

Pardon me–not by ourselves, but with the help of the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, and so someone who reads and studies can be fully assured that the Holy Spirit will help them to draw the correct conclusions.

When I was evangelical Protestant, I was a diligent reader. I studied much, and arrived at my own conclusions by myself.

And my conclusions were dead wrong, even relying on the Holy Spirit

FrancisB and benedictgal, perhaps it’s OK for Catholics to do what you are saying, to read and study Church documents and draw conclusions that are contrary to what most of the bishops teach or practice, and to state that the bishops are wrong and you are right.

But don’t think it’s a wise plan for ex-evangelical Protestants to return to a practice that caused them to utterly miss God’s plan.

We who are ex-evangelicals, for the most part, will and should flee ANYTHING that gives the appearance of setting ourselves up as an authority. We’ve been there, done that, and nearly died spiritually.

Certainly we can study and learn, but we allow our Church to draw the conclusions, not us.

For us, authority issues are of top importance. I’m not sure that Catholics can understand this. But it’s the truth.

The Catholic Church assigns men as bishops. These men are modern-day apostles, and it is my duty as a Catholic to obey them as I obey Jesus. That’s how I see it as an ex-evangelical.

I do not obey “documents” because it is through the Catholic Church, which is a Church of men, that the documents make any sense at all. I can’t read “the documents” and draw my own conclusions. There are many intelligent evangelical Protestants who read and study Catholic documents and draw utterly ridiculous conclusions about the Catholic Church from their self-study. I shudder to think what my conclusions would be if I didn’t have the Church to tell me!

As I’ve said many times, I HAVE read several of the musical documents that benedictgal references, and I came to completely different conclusions than benedictgal!

FrancisB and benedictgal, it makes no sense to me that the men who are given special charisms by the Holy Spirit, God Himself, to be able to serve as Bishops, and who have received a thorough education in seminary and in their daily service in the Church–it makes no sense to me that a large number, a fraternity, so to speak, of these august and honorable and intelligent, godly men are “wrong” about the use of instruments in the Church, and two people on an online forum are “right.”

You two are actually pitting yourself against the very upper echelons of Church leadership in this thread, and declaring that they are propagating “error” in the Mass!

The bishops have the advantage over you of CONTEXT. They not only study all the documents regarding music, but they study ALL the documents and writings of the Church (at least as many as a mortal man can study in one lifetime), and also serve on the front lines in the Church as priests ministering to real people in every country in the world.

Cat, with all due respect, how dare you compare the reading of the authoritative documents of the Church to seek out the correct answers as Protestantism? We read these documents in light of the authoritative interpretatons of no less than the Pontiffs themselves. For me, when I read the supporting documentation and writings of the Popes since Pope St. Pius X, Peter has spoken. To my knowledge, neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict XVI has contradicted either the MP written by Pope St. Pius X or Musicam Sacram.

I speak from personal experience when I say that, in my case, the bishop tends to take a laissaze faire approach to liturgy, a hands-off approach. I suspect that, unfortunately, that may be the case for some of his brother bishops based on what I have experienced at some conferences and discussions with other dioceses.

In many of your posts, you play the “I’m a former Protestant…” card and use that as a consistent defense without even talking about the content of the documents in question. In this thread, you have treated whatever Pope Benedict wrote as merely his opinion. But, if we hold to the statements you made in this post, he is perhaps the most knowledgeable person about sacred music, not simply because he is the Pope (although that plays a huge factor), but also because he is an accomplished musician, knows what genuine sacred music is and has a brother who is a renowned choirmaster who loves and breathes his craft.

You are intelligent and I believe that you can make better arguments than what you have presented. You say that you have read the documents, but, I do not see any inidication in what you have posted. I would ask you to read them and then use what the Popes have written in their interpretation of both the MP and Musicam Sacram.

If you were to have read the Chirograph written by Pope John Paul II, you will find that he, too, shared in the lamentations that Pope St. Pius X made about the state of music. Sadly, nothing has really changed in the 100+ years since the MP came out. Furthermore, Pope Benedict XVI, in his writings as Cardinal Ratzinger, also lamented the state of music. Or, are you, too, going to dismiss what he wrote simply because he was not pope at the time the books came out? I submit to you that what he wrote as Cardinal Ratzinger has not changed one iota since he became Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[CWBetts]

What are you talking about? I’ve been to a large variety of masses from the TLM to the gospel mass at the local African American parish. I’ve seen the charismatic revival; I reject it. I have attended masses at Catholic, state, and private, non-Catholic colleges. None of this is relevant. The church wills what it wills, and the fact that many services deviate from this does not prove that they are correct. The only place I’ve ever seen long confession lines is at relatively traditional parishes. I’ve heard less traditional ones claim, as protestants do, that they can confess their sins to God without a priest. If you want to see valid variation in the faith, there are the Eastern rites and the non-Roman Western Rites. To my knowledge, they do not use guitars there either.

1. To reject the Charismatic renewal is to to reject the power of the Holy Spirit.
2. I was trying to avoid the shameless plug, but here goes: Franciscan University of Steubenville. Three daily Masses, four on Sunday. The University is active in the Charismatic Renewal, which is by the way, the oldest of our Traditions. (Ever hear of Pentecost? Its in the Acts of the Apostles. After the Gospel of St. John, before St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans) And as for long confession lines, we have confession 4 days a week, and you had better show up an hour early if you don’t want to wait—and that is with five priests hearing confession! And yes, we use guitars in some of our Masses. I don’t know who you are, but none of the 20+ TORs seem to mind, and neither does the Bishop, for that matter. Forgive me if I defer to those who I know instead of some Traditionalist who wants to retreat behind monolithic walls.

 

[CTA1967]

In this thread, you have treated whatever Pope Benedict wrote as merely his opinion.

I don’t want to sound mean, but I will defend Cat on this. I know that you and others have said that some of our quotes were taken out of context. And here is something that I read in Cat’s original post that was not in your quote:

I humbly suggest that it is not the bishops and the Pope who are incorrect in their interpretation and practice of allowing pianos and guitars in OF Masses, but it is YOU who have drawn incorrect conclusions from your self-study of the documents.

And something that was in the quote:

FrancisB and benedictgal, it makes no sense to me that the men who are given special charisms by the Holy Spirit, God Himself, to be able to serve as Bishops, and who have received a thorough education in seminary and in their daily service in the Church–it makes no sense to me that a large number, a fraternity, so to speak, of these august and honorable and intelligent, godly men are “wrong” about the use of instruments in the Church, and two people on an online forum are “right.”

I really don’t think any of us are questioning the authority of the Church. What we are questioning are human interpretations of what the Church has said. Just because some of us come to different conclusions does not mean that we have not read the documents quoted so many times. Do we know if my opinion, your opinion, Cat’s opinion, FrancisB’s opinion, or anyone’s opinion in this thread is in fact the correct interpretation just because that’s the way we read it and we said so? We can keep quoting the same documents over and over, and we will get nowhere if one person does not interpret it the same as another thinks they should. The more I think I about it, the more wisdom I see in JR’s posts.

 

[JReducation]

1. To reject the Charismatic renewal is to to reject the power of the Holy Spirit.
2. I was trying to avoid the shameless plug, but here goes: Franciscan University of Steubenville. Three daily Masses, four on Sunday. The University is active in the Charismatic Renewal, which is by the way, the oldest of our Traditions. (Ever hear of Pentecost? Its in the Acts of the Apostles. After the Gospel of St. John, before St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans) And as for long confession lines, we have confession 4 days a week, and you had better show up an hour early if you don’t want to wait—and that is with five priests hearing confession! And yes, we use guitars in some of our Masses. I don’t know who you are, but none of the 20+ TORs seem to mind, and neither does the Bishop, for that matter. Forgive me if I defer to those who I know instead of some Traditionalist who wants to retreat behind monolithic walls.

Franciscans have always used string instruments in liturgy. It goes back to the days of St. Francis when he would play a mandolin at the conventual mass. It’s not mandatory to use stringed instruments and some friars do and others do not. But it is not new in the Franciscan tradition.

Br. JR, OSF

 

[CTA1967]

Franciscans have always used string instruments in liturgy. It goes back to the days of St. Francis when he would play a mandolin at the conventual mass. It’s not mandatory to use stringed instruments and some friars do and others do not. But it is not new in the Franciscan tradition.

Br. JR, OSF

Twang!

 

[CTA1967]

Okay, thinking more about this thread has made a bit sad as well. I mean, this has become a battle of mistrust. Several of us seem to think that what they had to say has been ignored. So we keep quoting the same things again and again, thinking that others are lying about reading them. But it’s really just that the same answer is not as blindingly obvious to everyone as we think it should be. I think the latecomers, JReducation and Sarabande, have given us good recommendations for where to find the real answers.

 

[JReducation]

We cannot deny the importance of the writings of the Church on the liturgy and other matters. We must also remember the importance of great humility when we read them. The proper authority to interpret them for the local Church is the bishop. The proper authority for religious houses of men such as Franciscan University and other houses that have ministries attached to them is the Major Superior. He need not be a priest; as long as he is canonically elected he is an Ordinary.

Obviously, bishops and major superiors are not infallible; but neither are we. Therefore, we have to be humble and not hang on to our understanding of the documents as if we had the gift of infalibility. We must always focus on God’s goodness and lay our hope and trust in those who are above us.

There is a very important passage in the writings of St. Francis in which he reminds us that even if our superiors ask us to do something that we know is not the best, as long as it is not a sin, we are to obey with great humility because this kind of obedience is more pleasing to God and man. The reason why this kind of obedience is more pleasing to Glod and man is because of the humility that it requires to swallow our knowledge of that which is better for the sake of littleness.

It is being little in all things that makes us saints. We can observe every rule. We can go to every mass. But if we are not small, we will never be saints. There is no better example of this than St. Therese the Little Flower.

St. Vincent de Paul also reminds us of the same. We must always be children of the Church. This means not only of the popes and their teachings, but also of those who are the shepherds of the local Church.

Finally, yes, the liturgy must be celebrated with great love, beauty and solemnity. But the soul of man must never be compromised over debates and uncharitable exchanges about the liturgy. Even correction must always be charitable and from the bottom up, said Saint Francis. You never correct another as an authority, but as a servant who knows nothing but the love of God and man. Attitude is everything when we correct each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[benedictgal]

We cannot deny the importance of the writings of the Church on the liturgy and other matters. We must also remember the importance of great humility when we read them. The proper authority to interpret them for the local Church is the bishop. The proper authority for religious houses of men such as Franciscan University and other houses that have ministries attached to them is the Major Superior. He need not be a priest; as long as he is canonically elected he is an Ordinary.

Obviously, bishops and major superiors are not infallible; but neither are we. Therefore, we have to be humble and not hang on to our understanding of the documents as if we had the gift of infalibility. We must always focus on God’s goodness and lay our hope and trust in those who are above us.

There is a very important passage in the writings of St. Francis in which he reminds us that even if our superiors ask us to do something that we know is not the best, as long as it is not a sin, we are to obey with great humility because this kind of obedience is more pleasing to God and man. The reason why this kind of obedience is more pleasing to Glod and man is because of the humility that it requires to swallow our knowledge of that which is better for the sake of littleness.

It is being little in all things that makes us saints. We can observe every rule. We can go to every mass. But if we are not small, we will never be saints. There is no better example of this than St. Therese the Little Flower.

St. Vincent de Paul also reminds us of the same. We must always be children of the Church. This means not only of the popes and their teachings, but also of those who are the shepherds of the local Church.

Finally, yes, the liturgy must be celebrated with great love, beauty and solemnity. But the soul of man must never be compromised over debates and uncharitable exchanges about the liturgy. Even correction must always be charitable and from the bottom up, said Saint Francis. You never correct another as an authority, but as a servant who knows nothing but the love of God and man. Attitude is everything when we correct each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

A very dear friend of mine, a Prelate, told us the story of St. Catherine of Sienna who took it upon herself to correct the Pope and tell him to move back to Rome from Avignon. At the time, there were cardinals and prelates who did not appreciate what she did. But, eventually, the Pope moved back to Rome.

He said that sometimes, we are called to offer fraternal and charitable correction. He has had to do that on occasion, but, he told us that even when they (priests and bishops) are wrong, the faithful, after praying about it, should approach them in truth and charity.

As I told you in another thread, all Fransicans are Catholics, but, not all Catholics are Franciscans. What may work for a Franciscan does not always work for another Catholic. I’ve been out in the trenches and it is not pretty. The episode where the bishop’s assitant’s wife convinced my ordinary that substituting a Christmas carol for the actual Gloria was okay was very disheartening and discouraging. It was my first sign that there were already some serious issues.

I take exception to those who say that it is disrespectful to correct, let alone, disagree with, one’s bishop. We are obliged to obey our bishops on Faith and Morals. However, when there is a strong disconnect between what is in the authoritative documents of the Church and if the interpretation is loosened to the point that it does not take into account what the Pope’s have written and how the CDWDS also reads the documents that it issues, then, there are serious problems.

I am happy that you agree with the fact that there should be beauty, solemnity and dignity in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is why what we use needs to reflect that. I don’t cook, but, I know that you can’t very well mix veal steak with french fries or lobster with potato chips. I also would not imagine dipping strawberries into salsa. It’s the same with the music. There needs to be a strong connection with the sacred and the beautiful when it comes to the Mass. There are, sadly, musical instruments that are just as compatible with the sacred and the beautiful as tortilla chips and chocolate fondue. Neither are a good combination.

 

[CTA1967]

Right, but in the same way that the practices of the Franciscans may not apply to everyone, the story of St. Catherine of Sienna also may not apply. Some cases, I agree, are outright wrong. But when those of us who are not in a position of authority make judments about the precise meaning of Church documents, how do we know that our interpretation is correct? I think that Cat writing to her Bishop, or just writing to the Director of Worship in your diocese as Sarabande suggested, is a good move. They have more access to official documents and connections to others in authority than we do, after all. And if they are actually incorrect, it could be a learning opportunity for them as well.

 

[JReducation]

All things being equal, let us remember that Catherine of Siena was also a personal friend of the pope. There are several bishops with whom I have a personal relationship and with whom I can speak very casually and agree or disagree. There are others with whom I do not have this relationship, such as the bishop of my diocese. In that case, Francis’ practice applies very well. Francis’ practice and spirit is not just for Franciscans. In fact, he wanted the brothers and sisters to teach it to the entire Church. In the same manner Catherine wanted to teach the entire Church love for the papacy and for the person of the pope.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

As I told you in another thread, all Fransicans are Catholics, but, not all Catholics are Franciscans.

Nobody is perfect.



Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[CTA1967]

I know that you can’t very well mix veal steak with french fries

Actually, this is apparently served with fries… bigoven.com/101642-Jaegerschnitzel-(Veal-Steak-W%2Fmushroom-Sauce)-recipe.html

This is what Google does to your brain.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, this is apparently served with fries… bigoven.com/101642-Jaegerschnitzel-(Veal-Steak-W%2Fmushroom-Sauce)-recipe.html

This is what Google does to your brain.

Okay. I’ll give you two relevent Chicago examples. I don’t think that you would ever try eating a deep-dish Chicago style pizza with strawberry jam instead of tomato sauce or dipping those delicious White Castle burgers into syrup.

My dad is a native of Chicago. I know about White Castle. He got mad at me for not crossing the Mississippi into Illinois just so I could taste the real things instead of eathing them frozen. But, I would not try them with syrup.