What do you think about guitars during mass?

[CTA1967]

Actually, I’m from St Louis. I think Cat’s the one from Chicago, but our forum names are sort of similar.

And not that I want to defile the Church, but now I feel like making a list of the food combinations you mentioned and trying them.

Edit: Oops, I realized my signature does mention “Chicago Transit Authority”. By that, I mean the band, not the actual Chicago Transit Authority.

 

[pnewton]

I think we would all feel better if we just hold hands and sing “Kum Ba Yah”, key of G. I’ll strum.

 

[Cat]

Okay. I’ll give you two relevent Chicago examples. I don’t think that you would ever try eating a deep-dish Chicago style pizza with strawberry jam instead of tomato sauce or dipping those delicious White Castle burgers into syrup.

My dad is a native of Chicago. I know about White Castle. He got mad at me for not crossing the Mississippi into Illinois just so I could taste the real things instead of eathing them frozen. But, I would not try them with syrup.

Be careful about using food as an example. The big hit this year at the Wisconsin State Fair was chocolate-covered bacon.

A few years back, the trendy thing was sweet pizza with fruit.

I put sugar on tomatoes all the time to cut the acid.

I like bacon with syrup. When I mentioned this on a skating forum years ago, I was told by many Canadians that this is the only way to eat bacon–smothered with maple syrup!

A lot of people prefer sweet with meat. Orange chicken is an example. Teriyaki beef. Ham with cherry sauce. And I have a particularly delicious recipe for meatballs using pineapple tidbits.

If you can imagine it, somewhere, someone is probably eating it. It’s all a matter of personal opinion. My mother used to eat lard. Extremely wealthy and cultured people eat snails and steak tartar (raw burger) or raw fish–yech. I like Peeps, something that many people consider non-food.

benedictgal, you are stating an opinion when you say that certain music isn’t reverent or dignified. Many of us who were raised in the evangelical tradition find certain pieces of contemporary music extremely reverent and solemn.

The magnificent grandeur of many of the contemporary gospel or praise pieces (e.g., Sandy Patti, Steve Green, etc,–and actually, these are really oldies–they’ve been around since the 1970s and 1980s) is, in my opinion, very fitting to honor the Lord God Almighty and the Sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. I realize that as Catholics, we have to be careful not to offer pieces of music that contradicts Catholic theology. But pieces like “Let There Be Praise” are not problematic.

Again, it doesn’t matter what I think or what you think. It matters what the bishop thinks, or, in many cases, what the person who is designated as his Liturgical Director thinks. We will all have different opinions about music. The bishop and his staff are the ones with the authority to approve or disapprove of Mass music. If we don’t agree with his interpretation of the various musical documents, well, I hate to say it, but it’s too bad for us.

I really don’t see the value of continuing to oppose or fume over his choices. HE has the authority from the Lord, we don’t. HE has the charisms to be the authority, we don’t. We can certainly make an attempt to change his mind. That’s fine. But if he doesn’t change his mind, I think that it’s undermining of his authority to continue to disagree with him. I think that someone who disagrees (and makes that disagreement public) over a bishop’s approach to music is very likely to sow seeds of disagreement with the bishop over matters of Faith and Morals. You and other strong Catholics may be able to separate the two (music vs. Faith/Morals), but many weaker Christians cannot. In their minds, if the bishop is wrong about music, then he might be wrong about other things. Doubt springs up, grows, and eventually, the Christian is no longer in submission to the Church.

What I’m saying is that it’s a darn serious thing to maintain a continuous disagreement with a bishop and to make it public.

 

[Ailina]

I think the following psalm from today’s reading has something to say about music and God:

Ps 150:1b-2, 3-4, 5-6

R. (6) Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise the LORD in his sanctuary,
praise him in the firmament of his strength.
Praise him for his mighty deeds,
praise him for his sovereign majesty.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise him with the blast of the trumpet,
praise him with lyre and harp,
Praise him with timbrel and dance,
praise him with strings and pipe.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise him with sounding cymbals,
praise him with clanging cymbals.
Let everything that has breath
praise the LORD! Alleluia.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!

I’m sure if guitars and other means of modern music existed then, they would be mentioned in this psalm. Since clanging cymbals are mentioned, I would guess that even drums would be okay. I quite like some of the modern Christian music, and see nothing wrong with it. It beats some of the “funeral dirge” type stuff one often hears at some masses today, so dreary and depressing…

 

[snhs]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html

If you scroll to the bottom of the page, Musicam Sacram seems to “provide a gloss of every sentence” of Constitution on the Liturgy (from 1963, four years before Musicam Sacram, and it is cited the most; it also does not specifically bar any instruments, instead allowing the pipe organ and instruments suitable for sacred use), Inter Oecumenici (1964, doesn’t even mention instruments), and Instruction of the Sacred Congregation for Religious (1948, doesn’t mention instruments) Tra le sollecitudini is cited only once. And something as important as the actual musical instruments used is not cited from the document at all. Instead, they cite a statement that is fairly commonly understood. Why, if it’s supposedly still in effect after six decades?

And for the sake of argument, assume it is not still in effect. Since apparently “given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it” only applies to Africa for some reason, what can we use besides the organ? Some of you seem to suggest that any instruments other than the organ have only entered the liturgy in the past century, and illegitimately. Which is clearly false considering documents from previous centuries, such as “Annus qui nunc vertentem” (1749) and “Regolamento” (1884).

As I said there is no need for it to be repeated when it is already part of the established, hence why VII did not repeat everything which had previously been said on the various topics. Indeed if you look at the hermeneutic of continuity example there were/are some who say that VII was a break with tradition, when in fact looked at properly it is merely a continuation of the same teachings. If I remember properly in the mind of the Church it should ideally be vocal music, hence there is more of an emphasis on Chant, and in other documents on the organ as the preferred accompaniment. Sometimes documents can speak on something through omission, but in the Church not covering everything on the topic does not revoke that has previously been said.

That section presupposes that they are suited for sacred use, or can be adapted as such. Can you cite any case prior to, say, 1950 where the guitar has been claimed, by any ecclesial source, as being suitable for sacred use? I never said it ‘only’ applied to Africa, there are also Asian sacred instruments which could certainly be permitted or perhaps Chant could be composed following the music styles and conventions common to that area, for example. I’ve not seen anyone making the contention of which you speak, I’m also curious as to what specific instruments you are thinking of?

 

[snhs]

1. To reject the Charismatic renewal is to to reject the power of the Holy Spirit.
2. I was trying to avoid the shameless plug, but here goes: Franciscan University of Steubenville. Three daily Masses, four on Sunday. The University is active in the Charismatic Renewal, which is by the way, the oldest of our Traditions. (Ever hear of Pentecost? Its in the Acts of the Apostles. After the Gospel of St. John, before St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans) And as for long confession lines, we have confession 4 days a week, and you had better show up an hour early if you don’t want to wait—and that is with five priests hearing confession! And yes, we use guitars in some of our Masses. I don’t know who you are, but none of the 20+ TORs seem to mind, and neither does the Bishop, for that matter. Forgive me if I defer to those who I know instead of some Traditionalist who wants to retreat behind monolithic walls.

No to reject the Charismatic Renewal is to reject the (alleged) charismatic renewal, nothing more and nothing less, regardless of whatever support it may claim to have. And that’s without going into the various liturgical abuses it has generated, guess you’d say those came from the Holy Spirit as well, right?

Oh Fransiscan University Steubenville, isn’t that the one where they had to have a petition and a fuss before they’d even allow a TLM on campus? Think that tells us what we need to know.

This is in danger of going seriously off topic, perhaps you should look through the previous threads on the charismatic renewal there are quite a few of them.

 

[CWBetts]

No to reject the Charismatic Renewal is to reject the (alleged) charismatic renewal, nothing more and nothing less, regardless of whatever support it may claim to have. And that’s without going into the various liturgical abuses it has generated, guess you’d say those came from the Holy Spirit as well, right?

Oh Fransiscan University Steubenville, isn’t that the one where they had to have a petition and a fuss before they’d even allow a TLM on campus? Think that tells us what we need to know.

This is in danger of going seriously off topic, perhaps you should look through the previous threads on the charismatic renewal there are quite a few of them.

You have obviously never set foot here. If you had, you would see the work that is being done by God. The Charismatic movement is grounded firmly in the New Testament. If you want to dismiss the fact that the Holy Spirit still movesw among the faithful today, go ahead. I know better.

 

[Bluegoat]

I believe St Benedict actually said much the same thing that JP described St Francis as saying.

What I understood him to be saying is that obedience is the only way to real humility. It is easy to be obedient to someone we think is doing the right thing - it isn’t any different really than being obedient to ourselves. It is also easier to be obedient to the Pope, or some abstract text, that to one’s own Bishop of priest. They are further away, there is more room for “interpretation” it is less constricting. St Augustine accused the Platonists of rejecting Christ for much the same reason - he was too close for comfort. Much easier just to deal with the Father.

It is in obedience to something we don’t like and don’t even agree with that we can start to let go of the ego.

Of course it becomes necessary to look to the higher authority if it is an issue of actual sin, or even of justice, I think. But most of the time, it doesn’t seem to be.

 

[benedictgal]

I think the following psalm from today’s reading has something to say about music and God:

Ps 150:1b-2, 3-4, 5-6

R. (6) Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise the LORD in his sanctuary,
praise him in the firmament of his strength.
Praise him for his mighty deeds,
praise him for his sovereign majesty.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise him with the blast of the trumpet,
praise him with lyre and harp,
Praise him with timbrel and dance,
praise him with strings and pipe.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise him with sounding cymbals,
praise him with clanging cymbals.
Let everything that has breath
praise the LORD! Alleluia.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!

I’m sure if guitars and other means of modern music existed then, they would be mentioned in this psalm. Since clanging cymbals are mentioned, I would guess that even drums would be okay. I quite like some of the modern Christian music, and see nothing wrong with it. It beats some of the “funeral dirge” type stuff one often hears at some masses today, so dreary and depressing…

Actually, it does not. King David was not referring to the sacred liturgical cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. What the psalms speak of is entirely different from the temple sacrificial worship that was dictated directly by God to Moses.

If we believe that chant and the organ are “funeral dirges” than we really do not know much about the treasury of Sacred Music that the Church has. Furthermore, might I remind you that the same psalm you quoted was also chanted by Ancient Israel. This chant is the precursor to the chant used today.

 

[agapewolf]

Oh Fransiscan University Steubenville, isn’t that the one where they had to have a petition and a fuss before they’d even allow a TLM on campus? Think that tells us what we need to know.

.

It tells you nothing, especially when you don’t know the context of the story.

There already was a TLM close by, and the school offered shuttle service there every week. It was already available plenty to the students. Those “fussing” it were doing it for the sake of doing it, not because they wanted the TLM. They already had it.

 

[CWBetts]

Actually, it does not. King David was not referring to the sacred liturgical cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. What the psalms speak of is entirely different from the temple sacrificial worship that was dictated directly by God to Moses.

If we believe that chant and the organ are “funeral dirges” than we really do not know much about the treasury of Sacred Music that the Church has. Furthermore, might I remind you that the same psalm you quoted was also chanted by Ancient Israel. This chant is the precursor to the chant used today.

Do you have a Magesterial document that tells us that your interpretation is correct and ours is wrong?

 

[benedictgal]

Do you have a Magesterial document that tells us that your interpretation is correct and ours is wrong?

With all due respect, what do you think I have been quoting and posting throughout these threads? How can you ask for documentation if, in your initial responses, you have called these arrogant? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot ask for the same documents that you termed arrogant.

 

[CWBetts]

With all due respect, what do you think I have been quoting and posting throughout these threads? How can you ask for documentation if, in your initial responses, you have called these arrogant? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot ask for the same documents that you termed arrogant.

I did not term them arrogant, but rather your self-righteous, know-it-all attitude. You have never once provided anything definitive. You have provided a paragraph or two from a document, and then your own commentary. You have never been able to give us any reason to believe that your own, personal interpretation of the documents is correct. All we have is your assertion that you are correct as a matter of course and we are wrong. So please provide us with something, anything, other that your own opinion, which is not more valid (or less valid for that matter) than ours. I understand your desire for a unified faith, but in doing so, do not eliminate the hierarchy of truths. Music does not carry the same weight as Marian devotion, which in turn does not carry the same weight as the Eucharist. Though universal, there is room for variance.

 

[FrancisB]

C<DG>B>D>E> are the same in any language so are the majors and the minorsETC and the guitar is set up like an piano or rogan or harp except it has 6 strings but alot of frets and you can play bar cords to get alot of differnt tones from it and harmonizing. The steal Hawian guitar can almost talk to you and put you to sleep like some people do, only more relaxing and rememberable, BY the By how are you MR PNewton? love of Christ Nancy

This is simply not true on many levels, Nancy. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about and all you ever do is put up your opinions rather than facts. The guitar does not play like any keyboard instrument; it doesn’t have a keyboard. While it is possible to play the same chords that a guitar plays on a keyboard, the keyboard is capable of playing many that the guitar is simply not capable of playing. Beyond that, strumming chords has nothing to do with the liturgical tradition, which is polyphonic rather than monodic (comprised of many melodies that sound together rather than one melody and chords), and the guitar is just not capable of playing the same type of polyphony that keyboards and voices are. Beyond this, your ideas of notation are not correct. Only the English speaking world uses the letters with major and minor the way we do. The German speaking world uses something similar, but adds the letter H. The Romance-language speaking world uses something altogether different, based on sol-fa (do re me, &c.), and the classically trained world uses Roman Numerals. In fact the tradition of country music is to use Arabic numerals for chords rather than letters.

This is the problem with amateur musicians. We appreciate your enthusiasm, but your knowledge is full of half-truths and outright mistakes. As is your theology: the four living creatures in Revelation are the four evangelists. All of the animals therein are symbolic of other things. If you believe that animals and people that the church hasn’t recognised as saints are in heaven, that’s your personal belief. Please stop trying to force it down my throat; it isn’t the official teaching of the church. The saints are the only ones we can know are in heaven. Certainly others are there or will be there, but to suggest who they might be is in error.

 

[FrancisB]

Franciscans have always used string instruments in liturgy. It goes back to the days of St. Francis when he would play a mandolin at the conventual mass. It’s not mandatory to use stringed instruments and some friars do and others do not. But it is not new in the Franciscan tradition.

Br. JR, OSF

It isn’t about stringed instruments. The violin and its predecessors have been used for more than a thousand years. The mandolin functions more as a violin than a guitar, despite its frets. It doesn’t play chords normally; it plays melodies. This fits with the musical tradition of the church, whereas the guitar usually plays chords, which is not in keeping with the tradition.

 

[snhs]

You have obviously never set foot here. If you had, you would see the work that is being done by God. The Charismatic movement is grounded firmly in the New Testament. If you want to dismiss the fact that the Holy Spirit still movesw among the faithful today, go ahead. I know better.

No I haven’t, indeed I’m fairly glad I haven’t. No the charismatic movement claims to be based “firmly on the New Testament”, the reality is rather different. Where did I dismiss the Holy Spirit? Dismissing the alleged charismatic renewal does not equate to dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit.

It tells you nothing, especially when you don’t know the context of the story.

There already was a TLM close by, and the school offered shuttle service there every week. It was already available plenty to the students. Those “fussing” it were doing it for the sake of doing it, not because they wanted the TLM. They already had it.

Actually it tells us plenty about the culture of a university which claims to be ‘catholic’ while actively advocating a movement which came straight from Protestantism and working against the Holy Father’s will as expressed in the Moto Proprio.

I did not term them arrogant, but rather your self-righteous, know-it-all attitude. You have never once provided anything definitive. You have provided a paragraph or two from a document, and then your own commentary. You have never been able to give us any reason to believe that your own, personal interpretation of the documents is correct. All we have is your assertion that you are correct as a matter of course and we are wrong. So please provide us with something, anything, other that your own opinion, which is not more valid (or less valid for that matter) than ours. I understand your desire for a unified faith, but in doing so, do not eliminate the hierarchy of truths. Music does not carry the same weight as Marian devotion, which in turn does not carry the same weight as the Eucharist. Though universal, there is room for variance.

And we have no reason to believe that your views on music, or on the charismatic renewal are correct, not least when the only thing which you bring to bear to keep them afloat is hot air. The documents are more valid than opinion, and Benedictgal has provided an abundance of documented facts about the Church’s position while your views rely on loop holes and the outright dismissal of any of those same documents which your preconceived position does not agree with. Before accusing others of arrogance perhaps you should review your own position.

Ah so we can forget about Music and Marian devotion, but anyone who dismisses the charismatic renewal is somehow denying the Holy Spirit? Again I suggest you read the previous threads on the ‘renewal’, this thread has went off topic quite enough.

Very intersting that you demand proof of others, provide none yourself, and then expect your own position to trump all others purely through personal prejudices, attacks and petty attempts at dismissing them.

 

[FrancisB]

Let me return to this lovely idea that none of you pro-guitar people want to touch: the proper music of the mass is Gregorian chant. It was written in Latin, and has existed for the whole life of the church. If it was relevant 1900 years after the birth of the church, it is relevant 2000 years after the birth of the church. The popes have been calling for a return to chant for more than a century, and it has mostly not happened. The chant tradition is the source of valid music; it inspired (and in many cases was quoted as a musical source) for the polyphony of the past. It inspired the organ compositions that are commonplace to our tradition. The guitar is not part of this tradition. It never was. It’s not a new instrument, so to think that it should become one now is strange. The synthesizer, being similar to the organ, might be a candidate for use, albeit a strange one. It’s new enough and functions similarly to the old tradition that it might be appropriate. The music that the guitar plays is not even close to the same music. But no one wants to talk about that. Songs by Marty Haugen and the like (he, by the way, is Lutheran) have no place in our mass. They are not part of the tradition. But every time we quote documents, they don’t seem to matter…

And then we mistake the silence of the bishops as approval. Where have the bishops said this practice was acceptable? Allowing it to happen and approving it are not the same thing. This music with guitar is just one more Protestant innovation (like the Charismatic movement!) that has been allowed to slip into the Catholic Church. I reject Protestantism as heresy and reject anything that comes from it as being unsuitable for Catholic worship. I don’t care if it’s J. S. Bach. He was a Lutheran and his music was written for the Lutherans. It doesn’t belong at mass. Music is part of the prayer of the mass. It is not a separate entity from the prayer of the mass. To sing Protestant songs is to pray Protestant prayers. We have our music from the earliest times, and we know the texts. Perhaps if the texts were different, I would be less offended. It’s not so much the guitar to me that is offensive (although I do not think the popes have allowed for it yet); it is the Protestant hymns that have become the hallmark of the guitar mass. Worse yet, you can’t always tell from the name of the composer, since some of these Protestants actually claim to be Catholic.

This was the problem with allowing the vernacular. And it’s not that I think there’s anything wrong with the use of the vernacular, except that it opens the door to any number of problems that would have never happened in the Latin mass. I think I’m probably the only one who sits around and strums on the guitar and sings in Latin, and I know enough not to do so in church. We just wouldn’t be encountering this issue had so many Catholics not been willing to throw away our patrimony. If we abandon the music that was proper to the church for its whole history, how can we say that the music in our masses is in any way Catholic? We can’t.

 

[FrancisB]

No I haven’t, indeed I’m fairly glad I haven’t. No the charismatic movement claims to be based “firmly on the New Testament”, the reality is rather different. Where did I dismiss the Holy Spirit? Dismissing the alleged charismatic renewal does not equate to dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit.

Actually it tells us plenty about the culture of a university which claims to be ‘catholic’ while actively advocating a movement which came straight from Protestantism and working against the Holy Father’s will as expressed in the Moto Proprio.

And we have no reason to believe that your views on music, or on the charismatic renewal are correct, not least when the only thing which you bring to bear to keep them afloat is hot air. The documents are more valid than opinion, and Benedictgal has provided an abundance of documented facts about the Church’s position while your views rely on loop holes and the outright dismissal of any of those same documents which your preconceived position does not agree with. Before accusing others of arrogance perhaps you should review your own position.

Ah so we can forget about Music and Marian devotion, but anyone who dismisses the charismatic renewal is somehow denying the Holy Spirit? Again I suggest you read the previous threads on the ‘renewal’, this thread has went off topic quite enough.

Very intersting that you demand proof of others, provide none yourself, and then expect your own position to trump all others purely through personal prejudices, attacks and petty attempts at dismissing them.

Deo gratias.

 

[ibkc]

Franciscans have always used string instruments in liturgy. It goes back to the days of St. Francis when he would play a mandolin at the conventual mass. It’s not mandatory to use stringed instruments and some friars do and others do not. But it is not new in the Franciscan tradition.

I hate to nitpick you, but the mandolin was 500 years out from being invented in the time of St. Francis. He would have played a lute - a quieter instrument than a mandolin although similar in other ways, as it is the mandolin’s direct ancestor.
**
**

 

[Sword_Brethren]

guitars, pianos, congo drums, rock music, polk Masses they are just novelties. They are just part of the endless novelties since Vatican II.