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Bluegoat
Guest
Has anyone suggested that Van Halen is appropriate for the mass? Why is that even an issue?
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JReducation
Guest
Hey, I’m not a musician. I can’t tell a guitar from a piano. All I know is that it was at instrument with strings. LOL
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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benedictgal
Guest
There are some parishes that use electric guitars, electric bass guitars, drum kits and the like, instruments that are better suited for Van Halen than the Mass.
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Bluegoat
Guest
Anyone on this thread. There isn’t much point in arguing something all involved in the discussion agree with, such as rock music at mass is just inappropriate. It just makes things confusing, it seems like you are arguing with what people haven’t said, and then they are confused. And as far as I can remember, most thought electric guitars and drum kits were likely inappropriate even with non-rock styles of music.
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CTA1967
Guest
Actually, this made me think up my own comparison. (uh-oh! 
)
Depending on the design of your guitar, the type of strings, your playing technique, etc. you can probably make a guitar sound similar to the lutes and mandolins used by the Franciscans.
On the other hand, if you have a Gibson ES-330 with Alnico XVIII magnet pickups and onboard 700 db boost hyper-active electronics, you should probably keep it out of church, unless you want everyone to go deaf listening to constant feedback. Of course, that doesn’t really exist, or at least I hope it doesn’t!
I guess this goes back to our earlier discussion about instruments that can sound different tones (which is basically every instrument, within its own limitations), except this time I’m talking about natural tones instead of digital.
)Depending on the design of your guitar, the type of strings, your playing technique, etc. you can probably make a guitar sound similar to the lutes and mandolins used by the Franciscans.
On the other hand, if you have a Gibson ES-330 with Alnico XVIII magnet pickups and onboard 700 db boost hyper-active electronics, you should probably keep it out of church, unless you want everyone to go deaf listening to constant feedback. Of course, that doesn’t really exist, or at least I hope it doesn’t!
I guess this goes back to our earlier discussion about instruments that can sound different tones (which is basically every instrument, within its own limitations), except this time I’m talking about natural tones instead of digital.
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JReducation
Guest
I believe that this horse has been beaten to a pulp. Regardless of which document you read, what bishop or committee you listen to, the bottom line remains the same.
The liturgy must be celebrated with great reverence, love and beauty. Now, that being said, we are not getting any holier by challenging every word that everyone puts on these threads. The goal is to become holy, to live a heroic Christian life, and to achieve the perfection of charity.
Let’s focus on that and think and pray about our life and the the Lord’s presence.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
The liturgy must be celebrated with great reverence, love and beauty. Now, that being said, we are not getting any holier by challenging every word that everyone puts on these threads. The goal is to become holy, to live a heroic Christian life, and to achieve the perfection of charity.
Let’s focus on that and think and pray about our life and the the Lord’s presence.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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CTA1967
Guest
Of course, this isn’t to say that the importance of the organ is diminished. Actually, it’s the opposite. The stops on pipe organs and drawbars on drawbar organs are designed to imitate the tones of different kinds of instruments such as brass, reeds, flutes, strings, etc.
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pnewton
Guest
Try strapping a piano around your neck and you will learn the difference fast.Hey, I’m not a musician. I can’t tell a guitar from a piano. All I know is that it was at instrument with strings. LOL
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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pnewton
Guest
Thank you, Cat. I ask again if anyone lives in a diocese where the piano or guitar is prohibited by the bishop.
I do not think I agree with the court analogy, because I do not think the USCCB directly contradicts MS directly. It is not that the Vatican bans guitars and the US allows them. Since the bishops are adding to the higher authority and not directly contradicting it, I would think that the principle of susidiarity is the only thing that maintains both the structure and the authority of the Church.
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pnewton
Guest
Unfortunately, not every parish has the funds for music staff. That is “the problem” (as you put it) with professional musicians.
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Sarabande
Guest
I would agree. Based on my study/reading and learning from my spiritual and musical mentors/teachers on the subject, and as a professional and classically trained musician, ideally what would be best is unaccompanied voice, as well as organ at mass with the most able musicians and highest level of composition for God. THAT SAID, as has been hashed out numerous times and various threads, the question is how does a parish handle a situation when the ideal cannot be attained? What if the only musicians available are amateur guitar players? What if a congregation can’t keep in tune unless there is some sort of instrumental accompaniment? What if a parish can’t afford to repair an old organ so they have to resort to other instruments? What if they can’t afford a professional, classically-trained musician, music director, etc.?
There are many parishes like this around and these are legitimate problems. (I’m not talking about those parishes which have the means and the ability to attain closer to the ideal and I know, especially in my neck of the woods, there are many well-off parishes which purposely choose not to go for the ideal.)
So, what does one do? A main thing I think is that the leaders of the parishes and diocese need to put figuratively and (if possible) literally put their money where their mouth is. As pointed out many times by myself and by many others since I’ve been on these boards, education is key - musically, spiritually and appreciation-wise. Encouragement and support as well - especially to the younger generation of Catholics. Going about re-introducing or introducing our musical heritage with a clean slate and not think about the controversy and animosity between the two groups in the past. This is so that people will realize that there is nothing “elitist” about the music or the instrument.
In the meantime, while this is being done and inculcated into the people OR even if it is not being done for whatever reason, try to use the instruments available in the most reverent, reflective and prayerful way as possible. Having a good pastor or mentor for the musicians to show them what is needed to create that prayerful atmosphere for the liturgy is important so that it doesn’t become a jam session or folk night. I don’t know how others feel about it, but Mass is something so spiritually other-worldly and transcendent of what is around us outside of Mass. It’s ethereal, yet at the same time grounded - spiritually balanced. For me, as much as I am transcended a different way when I sing an opera aria in the operatic style (larger than life, dramatic,etc), it is still much different than what is experienced at Mass with a different style of vocal music or a refined version of a classically-trained voice (since almost all professional singers who sing polyphony and such are classically-trained). It’s just totally inappropriate to sing a sacred work at mass like I was on the opera stage.
And I think the same can be said with the instruments. There is a time and a place for each way of playing them. If you look at history and even music history as much of the Church music history is intertwined with general music history, the Church has for centuries required musicians to refine either their instruments or their compositions for the use in Liturgy because the Liturgy is at a spiritually higher-level than what is experienced in the rest of our lives not to mention all the other reasons already discussed. I think if we musicians all just keep that in mind when rendering our music, it would keep music at the Mass from getting out of hand.
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JReducation
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You’re very right. The principal of subsidiarity does apply. Rules, decrees, rubrics and statements are issued at the higher levels, but it is up to the local levels to find the best way to implement them or come as close as possible. I’ve always believed that on these matters Rome will always proclaim the ideal, as well it should. We at the local level work as faithfully as we can to reach that ideal in good time. In the meantime we do not beat each other up because our resources and our circumstances are not ready for the ideal or make the ideal possible at this time.
The fact that we can’t rise to the ideal, but can only move in that direction, does not prove that we are disregarding it. When I was in school my parents wanted me to get a 4.0 GPA. I never did until I was in grad school. That was more than 16 years later. But at my level, I did the best I could until I made it.
The same happens with reaching the level of liturgical perfection in these documents. Bishops and religious superiors have to work with what they have. Therefore, they make local rules that make the best use of the best they have. We must show some support for that.
In the diocese where I am current stationed we have almost every kind of instrument you can imagine. We have instruments that I have never seen in my life. We’re an very multicultural diocese in a large metropolitan area that draws people from several hundred nations. The population is about 40% Catholic and 40% Jewish, with 20% other or non believers. That’s a very large Catholic population in an Archdiocese that has over 3 million people.
We do have guitars and percussion instruments that often come the the island nations and other instruments that come from the Andes of South America, as well as European and American instruments, including the organ. The organ is the most commonly used instrument, so it does retain its place of honor and preference. But it is not the exclusive instrument.
In our religious house we don’t have an organ. We can’t afford one. We have two guitars and a keyboard that rolls up like a scarf. It’s a weird looking thing. Anyway, the point is that when we have mass in the house, that’s what we have and that’s what we use. Our mass is as beautiful, as reverent and a solemn as we can make it. Again, there is the principal of subsidiarity. You do the best you can at the local level to approach the ideal.
In the end, we have to remember that God is in love with our desire to worship him in spirit and in truth, not with the fulfillment of the law. If the fulfillment of the law is only for the sake of complying, but our heart is cold, not much is achieved. The law of obedience and the law of love go hand in hand.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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benedictgal
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But, in some cases, both Music in Catholic Worship and Sing to the Lord do have some contradictions. MCW advocates recorded music, something aganist the authoritative documents of the Holy See and SttL advocates the use of additional trophes to the Agnus Dei.
Bear in mind that the original intent of SttL was to bring the United States into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam, until special interest groups hijacked the document and, for all practical purposes, rendered it a paper tiger.
I can understand what y’all are saying. Having just come out of a fog from migraine meds, I am trying my best to sound intelligible. My main concern is the appropriateness of the musical instruments in question. As I see it, rendering something suitable for the Mass should take several factors into consideration, including reading supporting articles, letters and statements made by the Popes.
It should not be a case of anything goes, as clearly, there are genres that simply are incompatible with the very sacral nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Rock, pop, polka, Tejano, conjunto, 60s folk and 70s soft rock, as I have experienced it in my short but interesting time on this planet, really have no place in the Mass.
While there are quite a few who do not agree with me, I find it rather interesting that the very fact that Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist, many of whom were bishops, mentioned that there were some serious problems with music in the Mass, to the point that these were listed, lamentably, as one of the shadows., should raise some flags here.
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CWBetts
Guest
No one here is doubting your passion for making sure Mass is appropriate. As for the listing of genres inappropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, I wholeheartedly agree. If you would read my posts, I never once said music in the Mass should be a free-for-all. Rather, I suggested that specific instruments were not raised to the level of liturgical abuse, as you seemed to suggest (if I was mistaken, accept my sincerest apologies). I also never suggested that full bands would be appropriate. And I personally shudder at the idea of an electric guitar at Mass. But if you have an acoustic guitar, violin, flute, etc, I see no problems whatsoever. The music is still reverent. And as I have said before, instruments are morally neutral.
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pnewton
Guest
You are rather coherent despite your medication. I think one common ground one must surely recognize is that not everything is allowed. I know that seems simple since every document out there at every level sets guidelines. Obviously liturgy is not a free-for-all.
I think instead of worrying about specifics, as this always seems to be a point of contention, everyone would be well-advised to read the documents. Read books about liturgy by folks like our Holy Father. Musical education is not as critical when it comes to making judgements like this as is liturgical education. Most of us do the best we can with what we have. This forum should be a place for support, not fighting.
FYI -
What is the difference between a terrorist and a musician??
One can negotiate with a terrorist.
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benedictgal
Guest
Want to know something rather odd? A couple of nights ago, I was listening to First Wave on Sirius XM. It just so happened that U2’s Gloria was playing. I cranked up the volume and I was singing along. I think that, to my knowledge, it was the first rock song to feature Latin in the lyrics. Gloria, in exlute. When I was a kid, the first time I heard it, I thought it was about a gal named Gloria. But, no, it was a different Gloria, not the one at Mass, but, it was also not about a gal.
I burned it to a CD, which has been lost in the rubble of my room. However, I remember giving a priest friend of mine a ride and I had my CD playing. He was a little taken aback when he heard the song, and probably just as surprised to hear Johnny Cash’s Hurt as the next one.
The Latin in Gloria surprised him.But, as much as I love the U2 Gloria, I don’t want it for Mass (although the Edge’s guitar work is rather interesting).
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benedictgal
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Drinking lots of Dr. Pepper helps coherency, as does being slobbered by a Boston Terrier and a dacshund.
I’m feeling a lot better.
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JReducation
Guest
Our parish has a very large Life Teen group. I mean LARGE. There must be about 500 youngsters. Every Sunday night they and their parents fill the Church which sits only about 800. I know the kids practice hard and they produce very beautiful music. The songs or hymns are very beautiful and always liturgically correct. They go with the reading of the day and the liturgical season. You can tell that someone has done their homework. However, they use a combination of instruments including the organ, guitars, drums, tambourines, flute and another instrument from South America that looks like a flute but has multiple tubes. I don’t know its name. I just know that it makes beautiful music.
My point is that you can hear a pin drop during the liturgy. These kids are attentive, reverent and very devout. On Thursdays they get together for two hours of adoration before the Blessed Sacrament and again you can hear a pin drop. It’s impressive to see them on their knees on a school night and on a Sunday night. I get the strong sense that they understand what the Eucharist is about and their music certainly reflects that. I for one would not want to take that away from them.
As a Mystical Theologian I am concerned with the matters of the soul’s journey into God. As I look at this population I see people involved in contemplation during the mass and during Eucharistic adoration. Sometimes, we have to do the best with what we have. I strongly believe that God does help us despite our limitations.
We move toward the ideal and thank God for the consolations that we receive on the journey, rather than complain all the way there.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
My point is that you can hear a pin drop during the liturgy. These kids are attentive, reverent and very devout. On Thursdays they get together for two hours of adoration before the Blessed Sacrament and again you can hear a pin drop. It’s impressive to see them on their knees on a school night and on a Sunday night. I get the strong sense that they understand what the Eucharist is about and their music certainly reflects that. I for one would not want to take that away from them.
As a Mystical Theologian I am concerned with the matters of the soul’s journey into God. As I look at this population I see people involved in contemplation during the mass and during Eucharistic adoration. Sometimes, we have to do the best with what we have. I strongly believe that God does help us despite our limitations.
We move toward the ideal and thank God for the consolations that we receive on the journey, rather than complain all the way there.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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iblessem
Guest
I’ve played guitar for Jesus, my Savior, for 35 years. I have been a Cathoilic all my life. Jesus works through my guitar and voice to heal, inspire and give prayer. The organ can do the same, or assult the congregation. A bad guitar can assult too. I think you need to listen to our lord and find the music that draws you to a closer relationship to Christ…guitar? piano? Oboe? organ? bongos? whatever
Love You
Ibessem
Love You
Ibessem
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JReducation
Guest
There is a wonderful religious congregation called the Brothers of the Poor in Kingston Jamica. I can’t recall the name of their superior general. I believe that his is Philipino. But they have some of the most beautiful music. They came to our parish to ask for help and they brought several of their brothers. One of the brothers celebrated the Eucharist for us and the other brothers did the music. If has a very Caribbean flavor to it, but it is very reverent and very beautiful. But it does not use organ. It uses very instruments that are more commonly found in the Caribbean. Their Superior General writes most of their music. Can anyone remember his name?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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