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Middleman
Guest
It’s nice to hear from outside the English speaking world, as to what they are doing there. Thanks for your insights. I agree with you.
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iblessem
Guest
I don’t know the name of that group, but if they touched your life with the beauty of worship music that made you closer to Christ, our Savior, and comforted you in the Holy Spirit…then May God Bless them.
All this talk about certain written music and special instruments used during the liturgy reminds me of the gospels when Jesus told the money changers, scribes and pharisees to listen to the real message his Father was giving humankind… Love, forgiveness and sacrifice. It is not the instrument, since Christ can create any instrument he wants, but the message is "I died for you on the cross after much suffering in public and I did it without shame because you were so important to me. Do not feel ashamed of Jesus, my fellow Catholics, confess your sins to our ordained priests and live the faith every day. Pray for me…I need some prayers too!
LOVE,
iblessem
All this talk about certain written music and special instruments used during the liturgy reminds me of the gospels when Jesus told the money changers, scribes and pharisees to listen to the real message his Father was giving humankind… Love, forgiveness and sacrifice. It is not the instrument, since Christ can create any instrument he wants, but the message is "I died for you on the cross after much suffering in public and I did it without shame because you were so important to me. Do not feel ashamed of Jesus, my fellow Catholics, confess your sins to our ordained priests and live the faith every day. Pray for me…I need some prayers too!
LOVE,
iblessem
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JReducation
Guest
The congregation’s name is the Missionaries of the Poor. I’m trying to recall their Superior General, because he’s the one who writes their music. I was wondering if anyone else is familiar withe them. They write liturgical music that flows from their religious life, from their rule, from their contemplation and from their ministry. Their liturgical music is an expression of who they are in the Church and their place in the Church and who Christ is in their congregation and in the people that they serve. It’s a circle that is very interesting because it begins with their call to be Brothers of the Poor, to follow their rule and life, to live and minister to the poor and to bring the poor to Christ on the altar only to take Christ from the altar of the cross back to the poor and the circle begins again. It is a type of music and lyrics that speaks to people about a covenant relationship that is expressed in the Eucahrist, but it’s not some abiguous covenant, but the covenant of the brothers themselves into which they draw those to whiom they minister. Their goal is to draw all to whom they minister into their way of life, which is contemplative, Eucharistic, marian and mendicant. So, in essence their liturgical music, even with its new world instruments is actually a theological statement about the Eucharistic Christ and his covenant with the brothers and those whose lives the brothers bring into the covenant. I love the circular concept, because it represents eternity, which is what the ancient Gregorian chant did. It drew man into the mystery of eternity.
I’m not a liturgist. But from the perspective of Mystical Theology this is excellent theology. It is the theology of the great mystics, to draw men to Christ and take Christ to men. The only difference that the Brothers of the Poor add is that they draw men and women into their religious tradition so that as they progress the charism grows to include not only the brothers, but also the faithful. I like it very much, because it’s something that the Franciscans always try to do in all of our ministries, to bring others into Francis vision of Christ. The Missionaries of Charity also do this. They try to bring others into the visio of their congregation, which is Mother Teresa’s vision of Christ and they too bring the liturgy into this movement and the movement to the liturgy.
I guess this is al part of the wealth that the Holy Spirit gives the Church. Therefore, you can make an instrument work, if you have the right theological paradigm to work with. And in the end, all of these theological paradigms are approved by the Church and blessed by the Church with the hope that they will grow and bring all men to Christ. I guess this is why the documents are open to different applications, without opening up the liturgy to a free for all. There are parameters, but at the same time there is flexibility built into them by the language and by what they say abnd don’t say.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Indyann
Guest
Are you thinking of Father Richard Ho Lung? He is on EWTN frequently.The congregation’s name is the Missionaries of the Poor. I’m trying to recall their Superior General, because he’s the one who writes their music. I was wondering if anyone else is familiar withe them. They write liturgical music that flows from their religious life, from their rule, from their contemplation and from their ministry. Their liturgical music is an expression of who they are in the Church and their place in the Church and who Christ is in their congregation and in the people that they serve. It’s a circle that is very interesting because it begins with their call to be Brothers of the Poor, to follow their rule and life, to live and minister to the poor and to bring the poor to Christ on the altar only to take Christ from the altar of the cross back to the poor and the circle begins again. It is a type of music and lyrics that speaks to people about a covenant relationship that is expressed in the Eucahrist, but it’s not some abiguous covenant, but the covenant of the brothers themselves into which they draw those to whiom they minister. Their goal is to draw all to whom they minister into their way of life, which is contemplative, Eucharistic, marian and mendicant. So, in essence their liturgical music, even with its new world instruments is actually a theological statement about the Eucharistic Christ and his covenant with the brothers and those whose lives the brothers bring into the covenant. I love the circular concept, because it represents eternity, which is what the ancient Gregorian chant did. It drew man into the mystery of eternity.
I’m not a liturgist. But from the perspective of Mystical Theology this is excellent theology. It is the theology of the great mystics, to draw men to Christ and take Christ to men. The only difference that the Brothers of the Poor add is that they draw men and women into their religious tradition so that as they progress the charism grows to include not only the brothers, but also the faithful. I like it very much, because it’s something that the Franciscans always try to do in all of our ministries, to bring others into Francis vision of Christ. The Missionaries of Charity also do this. They try to bring others into the visio of their congregation, which is Mother Teresa’s vision of Christ and they too bring the liturgy into this movement and the movement to the liturgy.
I guess this is al part of the wealth that the Holy Spirit gives the Church. Therefore, you can make an instrument work, if you have the right theological paradigm to work with. And in the end, all of these theological paradigms are approved by the Church and blessed by the Church with the hope that they will grow and bring all men to Christ. I guess this is why the documents are open to different applications, without opening up the liturgy to a free for all. There are parameters, but at the same time there is flexibility built into them by the language and by what they say abnd don’t say.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
There are several of his videos on YOU TUBE.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6235044177646254480#
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Bluegoat
Guest
Regarding Latin Rock Music: I am sure I remember some heavy metal bands, pre-U2, that had Latin lyrics. There are also a few songs with sampling. There is a psychedelic 60’s song based on the words of the kyrie, which is Greek but still interesting. I can’t remember the band but the track is on the soundtrack for Easy Rider.
There are also translated a version of “Yellow Submarine” which I heard on the radio once. If I recall correctly, in Latin submarine is “subvitriol”.
There are also translated a version of “Yellow Submarine” which I heard on the radio once. If I recall correctly, in Latin submarine is “subvitriol”.
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benedictgal
Guest
I respect your sincere desire to use your gifts in the service of the Lord.
However, I think that what we also need to look at is how the Church views music and the types of instruments used. It’s not merely a matter of what draws you. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not necessarily and simply a “me and Jesus” experience. While there are certainly personal aspects (the moment when we receive our Lord in Holy Communion), we The Mass involves the Church Militant (the warm living bodies in the pew and on the altar), the Church Triumphant (the saints in heaven) and the Church Suffering (the souls in purgatory). The prefaces for the Eucharistic Prayer certainly make note of that.
Using instruments that are primarily meant for and associated with secular music does not take this important fact into consideration. If we think that we are the only ones present at the Mass, then we really need to understand just who the Church is.
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FrancisB
Guest
No, not every parish is willing to allocate the funds to hire a professional musician. If the will is there, someone will find the money. It’s not the poorer parishes in my diocese that don’t have an organist and do everything like a folk mass; it’s the rich ones. The poor parishes are usually more traditional. At any rate, I’m sure that if a parish were actually too poor to hire someone, that they could find someone in the parish who was professionally trained and ask them to do it as a volunteer. What I’m talking about isn’t money; when I say I’m a professional, I don’t mean the church pays me. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been paid to sing and church. I mean in my Mon-Fri job I teach chorus and music classes. I’m not asking for money from the church, just not to be led by people who know less than I do. That’s insulting. I’m sure if you translate that to whatever field you work in, you’d understand it.
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FrancisB
Guest
Brother, I have two words for you… a cappella. It means “like the chapel” or “in the chapel style.” Of course we treat it as meaning “singing without instruments.” That’s because in the past when there was no organ, they sang without instruments. I’m sure you’re community is very holy, and I don’t mean to imply otherwise, but the idea that not owning an organ is a reason to use whatever is on hand is not in keeping with the past. In the past, no organ meant singing without instruments. That’s how chant and polyphony were originally performed most of the time anyway, so it shouldn’t be a big thing to fear.You’re very right. The principal of subsidiarity does apply. Rules, decrees, rubrics and statements are issued at the higher levels, but it is up to the local levels to find the best way to implement them or come as close as possible. I’ve always believed that on these matters Rome will always proclaim the ideal, as well it should. We at the local level work as faithfully as we can to reach that ideal in good time. In the meantime we do not beat each other up because our resources and our circumstances are not ready for the ideal or make the ideal possible at this time.
The fact that we can’t rise to the ideal, but can only move in that direction, does not prove that we are disregarding it. When I was in school my parents wanted me to get a 4.0 GPA. I never did until I was in grad school. That was more than 16 years later. But at my level, I did the best I could until I made it.
The same happens with reaching the level of liturgical perfection in these documents. Bishops and religious superiors have to work with what they have. Therefore, they make local rules that make the best use of the best they have. We must show some support for that.
In the diocese where I am current stationed we have almost every kind of instrument you can imagine. We have instruments that I have never seen in my life. We’re an very multicultural diocese in a large metropolitan area that draws people from several hundred nations. The population is about 40% Catholic and 40% Jewish, with 20% other or non believers. That’s a very large Catholic population in an Archdiocese that has over 3 million people.
We do have guitars and percussion instruments that often come the the island nations and other instruments that come from the Andes of South America, as well as European and American instruments, including the organ. The organ is the most commonly used instrument, so it does retain its place of honor and preference. But it is not the exclusive instrument.
In our religious house we don’t have an organ. We can’t afford one. We have two guitars and a keyboard that rolls up like a scarf. It’s a weird looking thing. Anyway, the point is that when we have mass in the house, that’s what we have and that’s what we use. Our mass is as beautiful, as reverent and a solemn as we can make it. Again, there is the principal of subsidiarity. You do the best you can at the local level to approach the ideal.
In the end, we have to remember that God is in love with our desire to worship him in spirit and in truth, not with the fulfillment of the law. If the fulfillment of the law is only for the sake of complying, but our heart is cold, not much is achieved. The law of obedience and the law of love go hand in hand.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Middleman
Guest
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FrancisB
Guest
Except that the document from the bishops taken on their own suggest that anything is appropriate. That’s why they won’t list instruments. Except that regardless of what the American bishops don’t state, the popes have stated it. If the American bishops say that they are going to refrain from naming instruments that are allowed, but the Vatican has already banned some, there is no contradiction: the Vatican’s list stands; the American church just wishes to refrain from adding any instruments to this list. The fact that not the bishop, but a priest that the bishop appointed, says the piano is okay in his diocese doesn’t prove that the instruments are appropriate. The problem with even using the US as an example is that there are more masses that use indults than those that don’t. Female altar servers, communion on the hand, and so forth. The fact that these things have been granted some permission by the Holy See doesn’t make them normal or a part of the tradition yet. And before you start with the “tradition means the future” line, that’s just rubbish. Tradition means the past. It lives on and evolves with time, but it didn’t start in 1970, and all the things that just arbitrarily started then are not part of the tradition. I don’t mean the mass itself; when prayed according to the rubrics, it is in keeping with the tradition. The problem is that the American church has no interest in rubrics or anything else that gets in the way of freedom. This is why we have our own heresy named after us: Americanism.
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FrancisB
Guest
That’s amazing.
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crenfro
Guest
Just my opinion…
I’d rather have no singing or music at Mass if it’s irreverent or done in such a way to detract from worshiping our Lord. Heard a lot of music at Mass where the musicians seemed to want the attention and fished for applause.
When the music is done for the Lord, I appreciate it.
I agree that guitar music, at least in the U.S., isn’t appropriate for Mass. It always sounds pretentious to me.
I’d rather have no singing or music at Mass if it’s irreverent or done in such a way to detract from worshiping our Lord. Heard a lot of music at Mass where the musicians seemed to want the attention and fished for applause.
When the music is done for the Lord, I appreciate it.
I agree that guitar music, at least in the U.S., isn’t appropriate for Mass. It always sounds pretentious to me.
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Bluegoat
Guest
Perhaps you should do some reading on the theology of what Tradition means in the Church. The Fathers are usually a good place to start.
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FrancisB
Guest
I have. I’ve read quite a lot. The tradition is a living one that should extend into the future, but the tradition is not the future. We cannot know what the future will hold, so trying to justify anything by an appeal to the future tradition is illogical. The tradition is what has come before us from apostolic times to yesterday. It has evolved over time. I stick to my thought that there was an abrupt break with tradition around 1970 that even our Holy Father has acknowledged and tried to amend.
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Middleman
Guest
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graciesuico
Guest
In my opinion guitar, piano or organ it depends who plays how they play with it. In our parish here guitar and organ and piano are used it depends upon the musician.
Some parishioner complains the loudness of the musician even he used the organ and move to piano; As I was listening it distract my attention; not just me as I observe since saw the reaction.
One time there was a couple his wife play the organ and he plays the guitar but he was not too loud and he plays well so for me it was awesome. He even sings well and even our priest ask him if he could offer his service but he decline since he was already committed to another parish. I do believe it depends how the organist or guitarist use the instrument.
Some parishioner complains the loudness of the musician even he used the organ and move to piano; As I was listening it distract my attention; not just me as I observe since saw the reaction.
One time there was a couple his wife play the organ and he plays the guitar but he was not too loud and he plays well so for me it was awesome. He even sings well and even our priest ask him if he could offer his service but he decline since he was already committed to another parish. I do believe it depends how the organist or guitarist use the instrument.
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Bluegoat
Guest
THe reason it is important to remember that the use of the church tradition includes the future is that it keeps us from limiting the church to what we already know about it. Doctrinally we usually say we allow for development, but not innovation - so any further explication of dogma was implied before but has been teased out or explicated in being developed. Something totally innovative would not be understanding it properly.
Practice and liturgy usually work well with principle too, although it isn’t necessary in the same way for obvious reasons. But normally, it is a good idea to see a kind of continuity of development in practices of the Church. That doesn’t mean there can’t be new ways of doing things. Even doctrine allows adaptation to new circumstances, that is how much work got done in the development of doctrine, in response to other things that were going on. A heresy might demand a response, Aristotle might be rediscovered. Liturgy and it’s supporting components can also respond to such things - it responds to changes in language, changes in how people experience and understand the sacrament, changes to technology even.
I think there was a break after Vatican II, liturgically, and also in more fundamental ways. It also expressed itself through music. That doesn’t mean all change is a result of that, or is even reflective of that, or that new things didn’t happen before then. If you want to argue that the only goal is Gregorian chant and maybe organ, why not go farther and ban the organ and have only voice? Or get rid of the filioque? Clearly those are silly ideas, but it goes to show that there is legitimate change.
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benedictgal
Guest
The Beatles were before my time. That is why I noted that, as far as I could tell, U2 was one of the first. In a way, though, they are because this was the first song, to my knowledge, that made the refrain in Latin a core part of the song.
Enigma, I think, sampled chant, or maybe it was pseudo-chant, for their song. The scary thing was that the youth group from the local monastery used this song for the commercial to promote the ACTS retreat.
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CTA1967
Guest
Just out of curiosity, do you live in the US? Few people sing or know how to properly. And there are few choirs that even sing well on their own.
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benedictgal
Guest
Actually, in my father’s former parish, the organ tends to come and go, as does the organist. When we had a cantor, she was able to lead us acapella and we were quite good at it.
Furthermore, the times when we don’t have a choir at my current parish, my parochial vicar leads us acapella. In fact, the faithful sing the traditional hymns loudly and proudly.
And, yes, I am in Texas.
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