What do you think about guitars during mass?

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Just out of curiosity, do you live in the US? Few people sing or know how to properly. And there are few choirs that even sing well on their own.
Yes, when I was in a rural parish for about 5 years, we had a terrible time with music. The congregation was quite small, and a bit elderly, and boy, they really could not sing. Until close to the end of the time I was there we had no regular organist, pianist, or anything like that, so mostly just no music. THere were no singers with a good enough/loud enough voice to lead the rest. (Even when we got an organist, who was careful to play pretty traditional, and easy, hymns, it wasn’t much better.)

The priest at one point tried using recorded organ accompaniment, but that didn’t work well either, it was just a distraction all round, sound quality wasn’t great and dealing with the CD player a pain.

We very rarely had some guitar music played by a parishoner, usually just at the carol service when the kids sang for everyone. Not ever at the Eucharist that I can recall. She wasn’t a great guitarist, but it was one of the few kids activities we had as there was no Sunday School and everyone seemed to enjoy it.
 
I have. I’ve read quite a lot. The tradition is a living one that should extend into the future, but the tradition is not the future. We cannot know what the future will hold, so trying to justify anything by an appeal to the future tradition is illogical. The tradition is what has come before us from apostolic times to yesterday. It has evolved over time. I stick to my thought that there was an abrupt break with tradition around 1970 that even our Holy Father has acknowledged and tried to amend.
I think it’s fairly obvious that you know what you’re talking about. And I agree, Pope Benedict is trying to not only mend rifts but is trying to do the very thing that the rifts have prevented. He’s actually trying to do the reform that Vatican II called for and that certain people misrepresented and have continued to misrepresent down to today. He’s trying to get us back to the call for reverence and beauty in the liturgy. I don’t see why so many people struggle against, of all things, beauty and reverence. I listened today to a conversation I had downloaded and one of the speakers was talking about a “controversial subject: reverence during the Mass.” :eek: Good Lord, why would that be a controversial subject? You’d think it would be a given!

But apparently it is not. What a sad state of things. And I think it is an American problem but not just an American problem. Sad, sad, sad. I’m glad you’re sharing your knowledge, FrancisB, on this thread. 🙂
 
I think it’s fairly obvious that you know what you’re talking about. And I agree, Pope Benedict is trying to not only mend rifts but is trying to do the very thing that the rifts have prevented. He’s actually trying to do the reform that Vatican II called for and that certain people misrepresented and have continued to misrepresent down to today. He’s trying to get us back to the call for reverence and beauty in the liturgy. I don’t see why so many people struggle against, of all things, beauty and reverence. I listened today to a conversation I had downloaded and one of the speakers was talking about a “controversial subject: reverence during the Mass.” :eek: Good Lord, why would that be a controversial subject? You’d think it would be a given!

But apparently it is not. What a sad state of things. And I think it is an American problem but not just an American problem. Sad, sad, sad. I’m glad you’re sharing your knowledge, FrancisB, on this thread. 🙂
You are so right, on many levels.

I am concerned when folks think that reverence at the Mass is passe. Part of reverence includes having music that is genuinely sacred and fit for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The music needs to fit the Mass, not the other way around. Culture should conform to the Mass, not the other way around. While there are valid reasons for inculturation, I believe that such calls for a purification of the culture to make it fit for the Mass.

You, FrancisB, Sarabande and pnewton have made invaluable contributions as you are musicians who have a strong grasp of the sacred and how it fits in with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What we need to remember is that Pope Benedict XVI, along with being the Supreme Pontiff of the Church, speaks from practical experience when he writes. He plays the piano, yes, for pleasure, but, he appreciates and holds the organ as the Church’s supreme instrument. Sarabande has already posted his article on the organ. His brother served as choirmaster of the Regensberg Cathedral Choir for about three decades. Between the two of them, they possess a strong sense of the sacred.

We would do well to follow what Pope Benedict XVI suggests and take his example to heart. He has already taken it upon himself to bring the sacred and the beautiful to the Papal Masses. We should, in our own way, work to do the same in our own parishes.
 
We would do well to follow what Pope Benedict XVI suggests and take his example to heart. He has already taken it upon himself to bring the sacred and the beautiful to the Papal Masses. We should, in our own way, work to do the same in our own parishes.
Thank you, benedictgal, for your very kind and warm words in your reply above. I didn’t quote the whole thing only to save space, but I had to quote those last lines. We would do well, you’re right, to listen to our Holy Father and to follow his example. His book The Spirit of the Liturgy is so beautiful. Reading his writings, along with Scott Hahn’s and Edward Sri’s, on the Mass is something I wish every Catholic would do.

Our God is Truth and Goodness and Mercy and Beauty itself. We should offer only our absolutely very best to so great a Lord. How can we bear to offer Him anything less?!

Edited to add: Hey this is my 400th post! Woohoo! Calls for a celebration! (Anything to get out of the writing I should be doin’, huh?) 😉
 
I don’t see why so many people struggle against, of all things, beauty and reverence. I listened today to a conversation I had downloaded and one of the speakers was talking about a “controversial subject: reverence during the Mass.” :eek: Good Lord, why would that be a controversial subject? You’d think it would be a given!
I don’t think it’s so much a controversy over whether we should be reverent or not, but rather how we should go about being reverent. This thread shows how we can agree on certain ideals, but disagree on the precise details. And I realize that as a clarinetist at mass, I have a responsibility to support the worship rather than drown it out, as so many of the documents we posted state. Although, if I may say so myself, the clarinet is a difficult instrument to do any drowning out with. 😉

Edit: Going back to the actual title of the thread (I’d kind of forgotten it :p), I’ll add that I’m also a self-taught guitarist. However, I’ve never really thought of playing the guitar myself at mass, as I’m mostly familiar with blues-rock and progressive rock styles of playing.
 
No, not every parish is willing to allocate the funds to hire a professional musician. If the will is there, someone will find the money.
LOL. We do not even have a parsonage. Our priest has a room at the office. We’ve checked the sofa cushions for money and didn’t find any. Heck, we have a large percentage that are here illegally and cant’t even work on a regular basis.
That’s insulting. I’m sure if you translate that to whatever field you work in, you’d understand it.
I really understand, although it doesn’t translate too well. I get to throw people to the ground and cuff 'em. You probably don’t get to do that with people that refuse to listen to you.
 
🙂 Except that the document from the bishops taken on their own suggest that anything is appropriate. The problem is that the American church has no interest in rubrics or anything else that gets in the way of freedom. This is why we have our own heresy named after us: Americanism.
They are the bishops, the shepherds. They do not agree with you that the prohibition from Pope Pius on piano applies. For all your education you lack authority. In any case there is no heresy as there is no matter of faith and morals. I strongly disagree that the American Church has no interest in the rubrics. We follow them to the letter (this issue is not in the GIRM, BTW). Many others here will say the same thing. What I don’t do is make myself the arbitrator and judge of canon law, tradition or scripture over the head of my bishop or my priest. I do not see following Tradition as meaning each catholic gets to interpret for themselves ala sola scriptura.

Also, Americanism is irrelevant. This is simply not a matter of faith and morals. Besides, it is the one who defies bishops that is in danger.
 
They are the bishops, the shepherds. They do not agree with you that the prohibition from Pope Pius on piano applies. For all your education you lack authority. In any case there is no heresy as there is no matter of faith and morals. I strongly disagree that the American Church has no interest in the rubrics. We follow them to the letter (this issue is not in the GIRM, BTW). Many others here will say the same thing. What I don’t do is make myself the arbitrator and judge of canon law, tradition or scripture over the head of my bishop or my priest. I do not see following Tradition as meaning each catholic gets to interpret for themselves ala sola scriptura.

Also, Americanism is irrelevant. This is simply not a matter of faith and morals. Besides, it is the one who defies bishops that is in danger.
Well, actually, there are plenty of times that a number of American bishops and faithful are…not. This is well-known. Take the response to Humanae Vitae. Some understood and accepted it, some didn’t understand it but accepted it, and some didn’t understand it but rejected it outright. The same can be said for all kinds of doctrine and can be seen throughout the history of the Church. And I can’t really agree that Americanism is irrelevant. I rather think that the American misconception of “freedom” is particularly relevant here: the insistence on having it our way no matter who says what. That is precisely the difficulty in so many cases.

And this is precisely what it sounds like to me that FrancisB is not doing. Sounds instead as if he/she (I’ve forgotten which, oops!) is trying to be faithful to the Holy Father. I know I am. Perhaps you didn’t really intend for your words to have the sharp tone that they seem to have on the page.
 
I don’t think it’s so much a controversy over whether we should be reverent or not, but rather how we should go about being reverent. This thread shows how we can agree on certain ideals, but disagree on the precise details. And I realize that as a clarinetist at mass, I have a responsibility to support the worship rather than drown it out, as so many of the documents we posted state. Although, if I may say so myself, the clarinet is a difficult instrument to do any drowning out with. 😉

Edit: Going back to the actual title of the thread (I’d kind of forgotten it :p), I’ll add that I’m also a self-taught guitarist. However, I’ve never really thought of playing the guitar myself at mass, as I’m mostly familiar with blues-rock and progressive rock styles of playing.
True, good point. That it’s not that we should be reverent but how to go about it. Except that I have had people mock me and argue with me about exactly that. Some people actually argue that all this talk about reverence is old-fashioned and irrelevant. I’ve had these conversations. They honestly and deeply disturb me. I was called a “strict liturgist” by the deacon who is teaching my friend’s RCIA class when I concurred with another person there that some things that people often do are liturgical abuses. And this other person was a visiting seminarian. The deacon is someone who sort of fell away for years (cradle Catholic who didn’t leave but never learned much and wasn’t serious until much later in life) and still hasn’t learned much, let me tell you. Every time anyone says anything that tries to go deeper into the mystery and beauty of the Church, he does everything he can to shoot it down. Doesn’t matter how the person goes about it, how they try to make their point, how nice, how polite, how innocuous. He just shoots it down. He tries his best to represent the Church as bland and as inoffensively “not so different from others and watered down Catholic” as he can.
 
I am a big fan of the organ. I feel this is a very good way to celebrate the mass. I wish the organist at my Church would play it more instead of the piano.

What do you think about pianos, guitars, and etc. in place of the organ?

Could anyone see these instruments as dangerous?

Some opinions that I have heard is that the guitar symbolizes a sinful musical genre (rock-and-roll) and the instrument is simply not reverent enough. I personally cannot see any problem with using these for worship as long as the tabernacle is not in the same room!!!

God Bless
Fish:

SILENT NIGHT, HOLY NIGHT was composed by an Assistant Pastor for a Catholic congregation whose PIPE ORGAN had broken down. The first time the song we all know and love was played, it was played by this Priest on a guitar in a Catholic Parish at Christmas “Midnight Mass” on Christmas Eve night.
Silent Night, Holy Night - The History of a famous Carol
icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME02/Silent_Night_History.shtml

There’s a link so you can play the music. I’ve also linked some of John Michael Talbot’s Music in some of my posts during the past 6 weeks… I’d be hard-pressed to call any of these “Irreverent”.

I know it’s hard to separate what is sometimes bad music from bad doctrine or even irreverent practice, but we all have to learn how to do that, or we’ll either always be upset or we’ll simply be so upset at a “matter of taste” that we miss a doctrinal problem we could correct if we could approach people in love and charity…

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
 
Well, actually, there are plenty of times that a number of American bishops and faithful are…not. This is well-known. Take the response to Humanae Vitae.
Show me one document that the USCCB has ever issued supporting abortion rights or promoting birth control.

The issue is not whether Catholics in America sin, but rather bishops have authority to apply liturgical documents to their respective dioceses. There is a process in place in which the Vatcian and national conferences work out this sort of thing. I will let our leaders work that out and not second guess them.

Humanae Vitae has nothing to do with liturgical discipline.
 
Show me one document that the USCCB has ever issued supporting abortion rights or promoting birth control.

The issue is not whether Catholics in America sin, but rather bishops have authority to apply liturgical documents to their respective dioceses. There is a process in place in which the Vatcian and national conferences work out this sort of thing. I will let our leaders work that out and not second guess them.

Humanae Vitae has nothing to do with liturgical discipline.
I don’t believe that is what I said. You seem very aggressive and not a little hostile. I also did not say that liturgical abuse was the same thing as other abuse or rebellion. They are, however, related. Rebellion is rebellion. I don’t recall calling it a sin. You seem very content to put content in my mouth. So I will just let you rant on. I prefer not to play along.
 
I don’t believe that is what I said. You seem very aggressive and not a little hostile. I also did not say that liturgical abuse was the same thing as other abuse or rebellion. They are, however, related. Rebellion is rebellion. I don’t recall calling it a sin. You seem very content to put content in my mouth. So I will just let you rant on. I prefer not to play along.
If you think I am hostile, then please report whatever post I made that gave you this idea. I was not angry in the least. Perhaps you had not followed the whole conversation and misunderstood. Humanae Vitae is not the topic here and rebellion is not the issue. I have said nothing but that we should be loyal to our bishops and have indicated no sign of rebellion. Jump in the middle of the conversation if you want, but please try to understand the line of discussion.

Again, this is the Liturgy and Sacraments forum. The topic is guitars in Mass.
 
Brother, I have two words for you… a cappella. It means “like the chapel” or “in the chapel style.” Of course we treat it as meaning “singing without instruments.” That’s because in the past when there was no organ, they sang without instruments. I’m sure you’re community is very holy, and I don’t mean to imply otherwise, but the idea that not owning an organ is a reason to use whatever is on hand is not in keeping with the past. In the past, no organ meant singing without instruments. That’s how chant and polyphony were originally performed most of the time anyway, so it shouldn’t be a big thing to fear.
We’re not afraid of it. It’s just not part of our tradition. Did you know that Francisans were never allowed to use Gregorian chant even for the Divine Office until Vatican II? St. Francis forbade it. Paul VI overruled it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
If you think I am hostile, then please report whatever post I made that gave you this idea. I was not angry in the least. Perhaps you had not followed the whole conversation and misunderstood. Humanae Vitae is not the topic here and rebellion is not the issue. I have said nothing but that we should be loyal to our bishops and have indicated no sign of rebellion. Jump in the middle of the conversation if you want, but please try to understand the line of discussion.

Again, this is the Liturgy and Sacraments forum. The topic is guitars in Mass.
Well, duh, I get that. It was just an example of people not listening to the proper authority, bishops included in those who sometimes don’t listen. And I’ve been in this thread from early on. I really don’t think your rudeness is necessary. Do I actually have to take such a step as reporting it? Can’t I simply point it out, the way Christians are supposed to before they take it to a needlessly higher level?
 
We’re not afraid of it. It’s just not part of our tradition. Did you know that Francisans were never allowed to use Gregorian chant even for the Divine Office until Vatican II? St. Francis forbade it. Paul VI overruled it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
You know, I never knew that. If you don’t mind my asking, was there a certain form that they were supposed to use or what? St. Francis was something of a poet and singer, wasn’t he? Did he write rules, other than forbidding GC, however reluctantly, or did he compose songs or chant for their Office?
 
I have no problem with guitars, assuming the playing is done so it does not distract from the Mass. When I am out of town with the family, we visit a church in a vacation town. The music is exclusively guitar. It is done reverently, though perhaps too loudly.

The issue that worries me is turning the sacred into performance. The Mass is not intended for our entertainment.
 
You know, I never knew that.
The rule does not say much about mass, because the early brothers attended mass at the local parish. The only thing that is in the rule itself about mass is that they had to attend mass on Sundays. In other writings: letters and so forth, he wrote that the brothers who are ordained should celebrate mass for the diocesan clergy as a help, but never take over parishes. This became a problem.

Francis greatest fear was that the order would become an order of priests or monks. What Christ revealed to him and the pope approved was a brotherhood, where there were some priests, but they had to be brothers foremost. Their priestly ministry could not interfere with their life as brothers. This is very clear in letters that he wrote to St. Anthony of Padua. He speaks of avoiding the extinction of prayer for the sake of study and the sake of priestly duties. If the priestly duties kept a brother from the community those duties had to stop. This is still the rule today. That has never changed.

Later when we began to have masses in our own houses, celebrated by our brothers, the friars were to avoid any semblance of monasticism. Therefore the mass was not to be chanted. But Francis wrote many beautiful hymns in Italian and French. Later the German brothers wrote some beautiful hymns that are still sung in the Church today. The most famous Franciscan hymn is All Creatures of Our God and King. It was written by Francis in Italian and then translated into German. It was never translated into Latin. There is also a collection of Marian Hymns, but we have lost the music to them. We still have the words.

As to the Liturgy of the Hours, the rule is very exact on that. It must be recited. It should never be sung. It must be precided by the superior of the house. In Francis’ time it was precided by a priest. But Francis received a bull from Pope Honorius allowing the friars who were superiors, but were not priests to preside over it and to give the blessing.

Since the superior is not always a priest, there is always a special chair on the side of the sanctuary for the superior for certain liturgical functions. For example, during profession of vows the superior presides from the chair of Francis, we call it. He sits there and when the novice comes up to make vows the chair is moved in front of the altar. The superior sits and the priest who is celebrating the mass stands next to him. The novice kneels in front of the superior and places his hands in the hands of the superior to profess his vows. It is the superior who gives him the blessing and accepts the vows in the name of Francis and the Church, even though profession of vows is a liturgical act.

We do have some interesting traditions. We have had stringed instruments and wind instruments in our liturgy since about 1209, except in parishes. Parishes do not belong to us. We follow the bishop. But in our own chapels and oratories we have always had them and we have had non ordained brotthers preach since 1209 in our chapels and oratories.

Francis did write music, mostly in Italian and French, but a few pieces in Latin too. The most famous piece is All Creatures of Our God and King. Another famous piece was the prayer that is said during the Stations of the Cross, “We adore you oh Christ and we bless you, because by your holy cross you have redeemed the world.” and the revelation of the cross at Good Friday services, “Behold the Wood of the Cross”. The original melodies were lost in a fire. But the Church adopted them for common use and new melodies have been written.

Francis reason for not allowing the Liturgy of the Hours to be chanted and not allowing the brothers to learn Gregorian chant was to protect the order from becoming an order of priests or an order of monks. Any priest could join the order and still can, but he must be willing to be a brother in the truest sense of the word. He scrubs toilets, he works as a janitor, nurse, secretary, teacher, pastor, chaplain, cook, whatever is assigned to him. The idea is to keep the number of men that we ordain very low. This protects the individual and the order.

When you have too many priests and they are involved in priestly ministry they tend to be away from the house a great deal. The idea was that they would be with the community for prayer, meals, recreation, silence, lectio divina, retreats, chapters and other community functions. Also that they not be contaminated by the laity. Francis was terrified of the laity. To this day the more traditional communities of Franciscans spend very few hours a day among the laity. My own community spends only four hours a day among the laity. The Franciscans of the Eternal Word spend much less than that. The Franciscans of the Immaculate even less, maybe two hours a day, three at the most.

We were not to be monks, but not to be totally apostolic either. It is a mixed life. That’s why you see the mandatory Liturgy of the Hours, just like monks and priests, but then you see the reciting rather than the chanting. We had the stringed instruments, rather than the organ. That came much later and it never totally replaced tamborines and string instruments, because Francis played tamborines and string instruments.

You will find that most Franciscans have a very powerful attachment to Francis. I sometimes get the impression that the only other group that is as attached to their founder are the strict Benedictine reforms such as Trappists, Cistercians and Camaldolese and now Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity. Franciscans tend to be looking over their shoulders all the time to see whether Francis would approve. or not. He was a very powerful man.

In 1978, when Pope Paul VI lifted the ban on chanting the office, most communities did not take advantage of it for fear of offending Francis. It is done on very special occasion when we believe that Francis would like us to do so. Today there is no danger that we will become an order of monks or an order of priests. We’re older and very large.

By the way, those hymns that Francis wrote are called laudas, meaning hymns of praise. None of them are really very loud or over the top. They are very solemn and beautiful, but they do praise the Lord.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I am a big fan of the organ. I feel this is a very good way to celebrate the mass. I wish the organist at my Church would play it more instead of the piano.

What do you think about pianos, guitars, and etc. in place of the organ?

Could anyone see these instruments as dangerous?

Some opinions that I have heard is that the guitar symbolizes a sinful musical genre (rock-and-roll) and the instrument is simply not reverent enough. I personally cannot see any problem with using these for worship as long as the tabernacle is not in the same room!!!

God Bless
Guitars? I’m all for them, I mean nothing says sacred and holy like an instrument that belongs in a rock concert instead of at the chants of Gregorian Monks.

Most people are sleeping in Mass, hearing the same sermons year after year, (want to take a wild guess what the priest is going to talk about on Good Friday or Easter Sunday?The same thing he always talks about, the Gospel of about how we should donate money to the church to help the diocese who has been hit hard by law suits). So I say yeah to guitars, nothing is sacred anymore.

But then again, I haven’t gone to Mass in 2 years, so my opinion doesn’t count.
 
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